Sooo, where do Blood DK tanks lie now?

[KampKanye]

Tank order is pretty much this Guardian>>>>>Prot Pally>=Prot Warrior>BM Monk>>>>>Veng DH>>>Blood DK.

Blood is the worst tank by a decent margin due to a severe lack of damage reduction in an expansion where fights are designed around having decent damage reduction. You should still be viable for Mythic raids if you're very skilled, but you'll still struggle a lot above M+10 where DR-based tanks can breeze to M+15 or better.

[Saybel]

Tank order is pretty much this Guardian>>>>>Prot Pally>=Prot Warrior>BM Monk>>>>>Veng DH>>>Blood DK.

Blood is the worst tank by a decent margin due to a severe lack of damage reduction in an expansion where fights are designed around having decent damage reduction. You should still be viable for Mythic raids if you're very skilled, but you'll still struggle a lot above M+10 where DR-based tanks can breeze to M+15 or better.

You are literally the 1st person I've ever seen claim DKs were bad for M+ let alone to claim they are the worst.

You do know that all tanks end up kiting in M+ right?

[Deleted]

Tank order is pretty much this Guardian>>>>>Prot Pally>=Prot Warrior>BM Monk>>>>>Veng DH>>>Blood DK.

Blood is the worst tank by a decent margin due to a severe lack of damage reduction in an expansion where fights are designed around having decent damage reduction. You should still be viable for Mythic raids if you're very skilled, but you'll still struggle a lot above M+10 where DR-based tanks can breeze to M+15 or better.

Repeating wrong, old and misleading information at its best. Guardian has been nerfed since beta beginning, they may still be strong but definitely not far better than the other tanks for everything. Every class has these threads of "lets tell everyone we suck so hard so that they believe it and buff us again regardless of how we really play out in beta".
If you listened to Slootbag during some of his streams (or some other streamer/beta tester that played different classes without obvious bias), who has every tank class on 110 and has done tons of high mythic+ dungeons on all of them, you'd hear that in his opinion, all tanks are not too far away from each other and they get stronger or weaker depending on the weekly affixes (for mythic+). Nobody is currently "breezing" through +15 and from what I've seen, it is probably going to depend mainly on the right affixes and straight cheesing to do dungeons in that range until better gear is available.

Its the same shit like repeating that "brewmasters need to game low-hp to be viable" garbage. You can read that in every second thread brewmasters or tank rankings are mentioned when in reality, these things were changed months ago and do not reflect the opinion of beta players in the least.

[KampKanye]

You are literally the 1st person I've ever seen claim DKs were bad for M+ let alone to claim they are the worst.

You do know that all tanks end up kiting in M+ right?

Preach loves blood and even admitted self-healing tanks will struggle at M+10 and above due to trash utterly destroying DK's.

[Deleted]

While I don't think BDK's are doing particular well at the moment. I wouldn't listen to preach. His advice is aimed at the more casual players.

The main issue IMO is not that Blood DK's are bad. One tank class has to be the worst, we just bad lucked to be the worst this expac. It's blizzard design choice. We're not worst by design, we're worst by incompetence and an inability to listen to feedback. We told them BB was the problem ability yet it took a blanket nerf to most of if not all of our abilities, before they end up nerfing BB. Now because of this incompetence we're sat with god awful single target DPS. People will have had their mains set in stone a week or two ago and then you release two huge nerfs. It's pretty unfair. Especially since we've had a very long alpha/beta. These issues should have been solved weeks ago. A 40% nerf 5 days before the expac should not happen.

Then you have the mobility issue. Again one class has to have worst mobility. It just so happens it us. What gets me is blizzards justification of it. Quoting a blue "Death Knights are meant to have lower mobility than other melee classes, but feel very strong once they’re in range." The problem is that we are not strong once we get in range. By using this Justifaction we should have some of the highest DPS in game, to combat how slow we move from mob to mob. But we don't. Frost is usually bottom tier. Blood DK has one of, if not the, worst single target DPS in game.

The thing that really irks me though. Is that the exact same issue happened in HM. Blood Boil was overtuned so it was nerfed mid progression by like 33%. Leaving us with the worst single target in game. Our only saving grace was the BoS playstyle, which was super fun RiP BoS. Even after months of feedback in the beta stating BB was overturned they didn't fix it until mid progression after a blanket nerf to most of our damaging abilities. Sound familiar? Without BoS to save us this time I doubt our DPS will be up to snuff.

Another thing that has made me lose faith in the design team around Blood DK's. Is that we have no choice in our talents once again, after blizzard pretty much promised to give us more choice in talents. I'm pretty sure when they announced overhauling the talent system they gave blood dk's as an example of a class that never changes talents. Now we have a new talent tree and we pretty much never ever change our talents. Most talents are just too good to pass up, Red thirst and purg. The others are just garbage.

[KampKanye]

Repeating wrong, old and misleading information at its best. Guardian has been nerfed since beta beginning, they may still be strong but definitely not far better than the other tanks for everything. Every class has these threads of "lets tell everyone we suck so hard so that they believe it and buff us again regardless of how we really play out in beta".
If you listened to Slootbag during some of his streams (or some other streamer/beta tester that played different classes without obvious bias), who has every tank class on 110 and has done tons of high mythic+ dungeons on all of them, you'd hear that in his opinion, all tanks are not too far away from each other and they get stronger or weaker depending on the weekly affixes (for mythic+). Nobody is currently "breezing" through +15 and from what I've seen, it is probably going to depend mainly on the right affixes and straight cheesing to do dungeons in that range until better gear is available.

Its the same shit like repeating that "brewmasters need to game low-hp to be viable" garbage. You can read that in every second thread brewmasters or tank rankings are mentioned when in reality, these things were changed months ago and do not reflect the opinion of beta players in the least.

Found the guardian druid. Seriously, check the logs. I'm seeing DK's on M+5 taking 50% more damage than druids at M+10 with similar uptime and gear. Not only that, but once guardian picks up Skysec's Hold, its self-healing rivals blood (that likely changes once blood gets blood feast). There really is zero reason to tank with blood at the moment, unless you enjoy making healers quit your group.

[Milocow]

Found the guardian druid. Seriously, check the logs. I'm seeing DK's on M+5 taking 50% more damage than druids at M+10 with similar uptime and gear. Not only that, but once guardian picks up Skysec's Hold, its self-healing rivals blood (that likely changes once blood gets blood feast). There really is zero reason to tank with blood at the moment, unless you enjoy making healers quit your group.

was that after or before the mastery nerf

and lol blood feast you really got no idea what you are spouting

[KampKanye]

was that after or before the mastery nerf

and lol blood feast you really got no idea what you are spouting

That was from logs posted today. Guardians with Skysec's Hold and Blood DK's are both doing roughly 100k hps within 10 ilvls of each other. However, the DK's are getting healing from blood feast, so I assume the ones testing don't have it yet. You are aware blood feast is the talent that gives heart strike a 25% of damage done heal, right?

- - - Updated - - -

I get what you're saying with Preach, Crunchh, but he has made some good points. He tends to favor playstyle over viability in his rankings of what's "best", which is why he admits prot pally will be awesome in high-level content, but he hates the spec with a passion and ranks it low because it's almost as mongo as BM hunters. He even forgave Blood's mobility problem, saying only one fight really gave him trouble (actually, that might have been fat boss, I can't recall, I go through half a dozen sources).

We're still going to be viable, to the most part, but as I pointed out to Theiara, blood DK's are taking 50% more damage on much easier content than guardians. There's really no reason anyone in their right mind should take blood (or frost for that matter) when content isn't really designed for self-healing tanks. Demon Hunters suffer from a similar issue.

My guess is that DK's will get the guardian treatment in WoD. They were so bad that nobody wanted to bring them, which resulted in their buff to the top in HFC. It's not that guardians couldn't complete fights, but it was stressful as hell to tank with them (and as them).

[Milocow]

That was from logs posted today. Guardians with Skysec's Hold and Blood DK's are both doing roughly 100k hps within 10 ilvls of each other. However, the DK's are getting healing from blood feast, so I assume the ones testing don't have it yet. You are aware blood feast is the talent that gives heart strike a 25% of damage done heal, right?

- - - Updated - - -

I get what you're saying with Preach, Crunchh, but he has made some good points. He tends to favor playstyle over viability in his rankings of what's "best", which is why he admits prot pally will be awesome in high-level content, but he hates the spec with a passion and ranks it low because it's almost as mongo as BM hunters. He even forgave Blood's mobility problem, saying only one fight really gave him trouble (actually, that might have been fat boss, I can't recall, I go through half a dozen sources).

We're still going to be viable, to the most part, but as I pointed out to Theiara, blood DK's are taking 50% more damage on much easier content than guardians. There's really no reason anyone in their right mind should take blood (or frost for that matter) when content isn't really designed for self-healing tanks. Demon Hunters suffer from a similar issue.

My guess is that DK's will get the guardian treatment in WoD. They were so bad that nobody wanted to bring them, which resulted in their buff to the top in HFC. It's not that guardians couldn't complete fights, but it was stressful as hell to tank with them (and as them).

links?
skysec hold was overpowered double dipping with mastery, i read the druid thread that they fixed all hp% heals to only benefit once from mastery, is that not the case for skysec hold?
bloodfeast healing is quite small

[Deleted]

Death Knights are designed to take the most damage. That's the whole point in the DK playstyle.

25% healing on a ability that doesn't even hit that hard. On beta right now my Blood plague heals for 16k per tick while HS heals for 14k.

[KampKanye]

It still doesn't allow me to post links here, but it's towards the top of the Mythic+ page on warcraft logs, Warden is the instance. It was actually from 3 days ago, but still very recent and it's doing almost a quarter of their healing. The only change Skysec took since then is going from 15% over 5 to 12% over 3 which wouldn't change the end result by a lot (and actually makes for a better cooldown). When I bring up blood feast, I don't mean it'll be some awesome heal. It'll basically be like leech. Some crappy heal that doesn't change anything but adds 10% to your overall healing done. It'll be about as useless as blood shield overall.

- - - Updated - - -

Death Knights are designed to take the most damage. That's the whole point in the DK playstyle.

25% healing on a ability that doesn't even hit that hard. On beta right now my Blood plague heals for 16k per tick while HS heals for 14k.

True, but not 50% more, especially on easier fights with the same uptime on the mobs. I think I was taking something like 10% more running with a monk in HFC (when guard was stupidly op). I only mentioned blood feast because it would add up just like leech, not because it's a good heal. Still, the whole point is that there's no reason I can think of to take a blood DK. Maybe if you had a ret pally in your mythic+ group and need to make up a bit of aoe.

[Deleted]

Preach loves blood and even admitted self-healing tanks will struggle at M+10 and above due to trash utterly destroying DK's.

Preach might be right, Preach might be wrong, but Preach is a terrible source for an opinion like this. He's garbage and just doesn't study things in enough depth to put faith in.

[Milocow]

It still doesn't allow me to post links here, but it's towards the top of the Mythic+ page on warcraft logs, Warden is the instance. It was actually from 3 days ago, but still very recent and it's doing almost a quarter of their healing. The only change Skysec took since then is going from 15% over 5 to 12% over 3 which wouldn't change the end result by a lot (and actually makes for a better cooldown). When I bring up blood feast, I don't mean it'll be some awesome heal. It'll basically be like leech. Some crappy heal that doesn't change anything but adds 10% to your overall healing done. It'll be about as useless as blood shield overall.

- - - Updated - - -



True, but not 50% more, especially on easier fights with the same uptime on the mobs. I think I was taking something like 10% more running with a monk in HFC (when guard was stupidly op). I only mentioned blood feast because it would add up just like leech, not because it's a good heal. Still, the whole point is that there's no reason I can think of to take a blood DK. Maybe if you had a ret pally in your mythic+ group and need to make up a bit of aoe.

i guess u mean this blood dk?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=1
this dumbass had 4% boneshield uptime
guardian druid
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hfbCynQHYA193WJN

both 53k hps but please at least find people of equivalent skill level to draw conclusions from

[KampKanye]

Preach might be right, Preach might be wrong, but Preach is a terrible source for an opinion like this. He's garbage and just doesn't study things in enough depth to put faith in.

Possibly, but it's pretty common sense. DK's are designed to take more damage (and covert a portion of that into healing), we just happen to be taking too much damage. Best fix I can think of is making death and decay increase bone shield's DR by an additional 10%. They could also make blood shield useful again, but I'm not sure how. We'll see how it goes, but I know how blizz works. If we go into legion broken as hell, we'll stay that way for a patch or two. Blizz finally confirmed that by saying they'll not be making knee jerk changes once we're live (even if a class is blatantly op).

- - - Updated - - -

i guess u mean this blood dk?
this dumbass had 4% boneshield uptime
guardian druid

both 53k hps but please at least find people of equivalent skill level to draw conclusions from

Did you cherry pick the worst DK you could find to say that? Actually, the main one I was comparing had 90%+ on boss fights, which is better than most.

I found another that was as close to evenly matched as possible (except druid was one M+ level higher). The only thing I can't tell is ilvl, but the DK had Maw with enough points for UE and the druid was 849. The DK did roughly 40% more healing, but part of that came from a trinket (Shard of Rokmora), and this guy had UE which I haven't seen on other logs, overall they accounted for like 12% of their healing. However, the druid didn't have Skysec and still pulled 98k hps. Skysec would nearly make up the difference. Also, the DK took 254k dtps versus 195k for the druid.

[Milocow]

Possibly, but it's pretty common sense. DK's are designed to take more damage (and covert a portion of that into healing), we just happen to be taking too much damage. Best fix I can think of is making death and decay increase bone shield's DR by an additional 10%. They could also make blood shield useful again, but I'm not sure how. We'll see how it goes, but I know how blizz works. If we go into legion broken as hell, we'll stay that way for a patch or two. Blizz finally confirmed that by saying they'll not be making knee jerk changes once we're live (even if a class is blatantly op).

- - - Updated - - -



Did you cherry pick the worst DK you could find to say that? Actually, the main one I was comparing had 90%+ on boss fights, which is better than most.

I found another that was as close to evenly matched as possible (except druid was one M+ level higher). The only thing I can't tell is ilvl, but the DK had Maw with enough points for UE and the druid was 849. The DK did roughly 40% more healing, but part of that came from a trinket (Shard of Rokmora), and this guy had UE which I haven't seen on other logs, overall they accounted for like 12% of their healing. However, the druid didn't have Skysec and still pulled 98k hps. Skysec would nearly make up the difference. Also, the DK took 254k dtps versus 195k for the druid.

links or it didnt happen
i just looked through recent VotW logs and only could find this two with similar hps
names of bear and dk would help
and which dungeon and +what level

[ShiyoKozuki]

. Now we have a new talent tree and we pretty much never ever change our talents. Most talents are just too good to pass up, Red thirst and purg. The others are just garbage.

I don't even consider blood DK's having talents. I've played many other classes and specs with 7.0 changes and they all have choices and talents - blood dk has 1 set in stone talent decision and 80% of it's talents don't actually do anything or accomplish much at all; it's really annoying when you compare it to other classes game changing talents, especially their level100 ones.

I do like bonestorm though, it's fun.

[Grishnok]

No other tank spec has mass grip. Just saying.

False. DH's have it. Its a run you place on the ground so you can mass grip to any location not just a target. So in a way its a superior mass grip. Your move.

[Milocow]

False. DH's have it. Its a run you place on the ground so you can mass grip to any location not just a target. So in a way its a superior mass grip. Your move.

GG 20yard radius grip > sigil's 8yards

[Grishnok]

Im going to stick with the DK regardless since I have MTd with it since Wrath. I can't stand the playstyle or animations/lore of monks, warriors feel somewhat boring to me, and paladins right now feel like they are designed for mongoloids. DH is cool, but Im not a huge fan of elves and they do feel spikier than every other tank atm and most of their gear looks like anus. Plus since wrath I avoid the "new class" because it goes through a roller-coaster of changes during their xpac. And a Druid? If I wanted to stare at a bears ass all night Id watch the discovery channel.

However all that being said I REALLY cant stand Blizzards knee jerk reactions and their apparent complete lack of brain cells when it comes to DK design. Im not going to even mention my gripes with frost, but it keeps getting more disheartening when Blood DK's have these major issues:

1. Blizzard shouts from the rooftops about reactive mitigation. Removed almost all of Blood DK's reactive abilities and makes the ones we have underwhelming. DRW is subject to RNG and diminishing returns and does nothing against most special attacks. VB is healer dependent and doesnt prevent damage. Boneshield isn't reactive.. Its a buff you keep up. AMS is reactive but only for magic damage. IBF removed. Rune TAP removed from baseline and is instead a trap talent that nobody will ever take. Death strike is reactive but its major component blood shield is worthless now and gets removed with a single boss hit... thus completely nullifying any usefulness from a major artifact trait. So where is our reactive mitigation? I don't see it.

2. Our talents are a pathetic laughable joke with no choice existing at all. Its the most set in stone cookie cutter our talent tree has EVER been. It goes 2,1,1,2,1,3,3. There is almost NEVER a reason to ever even consider the other talents. EVERY other talent is SHIT. Occasionally when you massively outgear content might see a DK take Bonestorm instead of Purg and you might see a DK here and there take Tremble before me for pvp lulz, but no other talent is EVER even considered. They are complete SHIT. Who fucking designed this? I mean seriously Who? We have more X'd out talents on Icy veins than any other spec/class.

3. Our mobility is complete ass. With DH's gliding and jumping all over the place, Monks spinning around, Druids charging and displacing, Warriors charging and leaping to their hearts content... the only other tank that is nearly as bad at moving are paladins, but even then their movement is still superior. It just plain sucks and there is no real justification for it. DK's are going to struggle on any fight where they need to move out of something quickly. Better bring that priest with Leap of Faith.

4. Bottom of the barrel now in ST DPS and mediocre at best against AOE.

Its just disheartening. I just wish the Blizz would listen to the goddamn feedback instead of just knee jerk reacting to everything and then taking months to realize they are complete fuck ups with tunnel vision and start to balance things again.

I mean really, play style aside, do BDK's really shine at any one thing? No they straight up do not.

[razorsharp]

Im going to stick with the DK regardless since I have MTd with it since Wrath. I can't stand the playstyle or animations/lore of monks, warriors feel somewhat boring to me, and paladins right now feel like they are designed for mongoloids. DH is cool, but Im not a huge fan of elves and they do feel spikier than every other tank atm and most of their gear looks like anus. Plus since wrath I avoid the "new class" because it goes through a roller-coaster of changes during their xpac. And a Druid? If I wanted to stare at a bears ass all night Id watch the discovery channel.

However all that being said I REALLY cant stand Blizzards knee jerk reactions and their apparent complete lack of brain cells when it comes to DK design. Im not going to even mention my gripes with frost, but it keeps getting more disheartening when Blood DK's have these major issues:

1. Blizzard shouts from the rooftops about reactive mitigation. Removed almost all of Blood DK's reactive abilities and makes the ones we have underwhelming. DRW is subject to RNG and diminishing returns and does nothing against most special attacks. VB is healer dependent and doesnt prevent damage. Boneshield isn't reactive.. Its a buff you keep up. AMS is reactive but only for magic damage. IBF removed. Rune TAP removed from baseline and is instead a trap talent that nobody will ever take. Death strike is reactive but its major component blood shield is worthless now and gets removed with a single boss hit... thus completely nullifying any usefulness from a major artifact trait. So where is our reactive mitigation? I don't see it.

2. Our talents are a pathetic laughable joke with no choice existing at all. Its the most set in stone cookie cutter our talent tree has EVER been. It goes 2,1,1,2,1,3,3. There is almost NEVER a reason to ever even consider the other talents. EVERY other talent is SHIT. Occasionally when you massively outgear content might see a DK take Bonestorm instead of Purg and you might see a DK here and there take Tremble before me for pvp lulz, but no other talent is EVER even considered. They are complete SHIT. Who fucking designed this? I mean seriously Who? We have more X'd out talents on Icy veins than any other spec/class.

3. Our mobility is complete ass. With DH's gliding and jumping all over the place, Monks spinning around, Druids charging and displacing, Warriors charging and leaping to their hearts content... the only other tank that is nearly as bad at moving are paladins, but even then their movement is still superior. It just plain sucks and there is no real justification for it. DK's are going to struggle on any fight where they need to move out of something quickly. Better bring that priest with Leap of Faith.

4. Bottom of the barrel now in ST DPS and mediocre at best against AOE.

Its just disheartening. I just wish the Blizz would listen to the goddamn feedback instead of just knee jerk reacting to everything and then taking months to realize they are complete fuck ups with tunnel vision and start to balance things again.

I mean really, play style aside, do BDK's really shine at any one thing? No they straight up do not.

From the moment you make your class choice based on lore and whatnot, you shouldn't even touch the topic about DK and its viability.

From talents point of view, you have much more choice to play around this time. If you haven't even tested anything in beta please, don't even start. Your pre-patch HFC experience means nothing here, get over it. Icy Veins? Please. Every talent in this tree is viable for certain scenarios, in Legion content.

There is only 1 boss in the whole current Legion tier where tank actually needs some kind of mobility, and even that's in 5 man, so what are you trying to say here? DK is at its best where it has ever been. Period.

Worthless rant and misguiding information.