Fire legendaries discussion

[Deleted]

Haven't managed to get the bracers yet on Beta, but from the raid testing we've done there does not appear to be a fight where you move ALL THE TIME. There are fights with movement components to be sure, but as a Fire Mage dealing with those is almost trivial. Between IF, Shimmer, and all the instants you barely lose any uptime for your rotation (which is why 0 movement ST Simcraft is basically the same for us as a heavy movement one would be). Considering that the bracer proc also has a huge duration (and banking is fairly safe considering the proc rate) I imagine they would be extremely easy to use in ways that go around movement issues.

The Ring, on the other hand, is 100% contingent on you Lusting on pull. It's entirely possible (but by no means certain) that the Ring comes out ahead in fights where you do Lust on pull - but that's very few fights during progression. For farm it may be a different story, but then again there's only a very special subset of people that really care about min/maxing farm performance...

you can buy the legendaries from a vendor near the bank in dalaran, dunno if ge's still there.

[Biomega]

you can buy the legendaries from a vendor near the bank in dalaran, dunno if ge's still there.

It was disabled for a time, I haven't been back for much except raid testing.

[Deleted]

Fire mage legendaries aren't stronger than other classes. Have you seen how much dps Deaht Knight's legendaries give? Or some of the really fun looking healer ones ? Fire mage as a class is in top 3 dps class, yes, but it's legendaries don't stand out particularly.

Hence why they should not have powerful legendaries, it would simply be like giving a guy in WW1 who already have a Tiger tank an M1 Abrahams instead, while all the others roll around in MKV buckets.

I sure hope you know your tanks by the way, else that analogy is probably wasted.

[Torian kel]

Hence why they should not have powerful legendaries, it would simply be like giving a guy in WW1 who already have a Tiger tank an M1 Abrahams instead, while all the others roll around in MKV buckets.

I sure hope you know your tanks by the way, else that analogy is probably wasted.

No, my knowledge about weapons and combat vehicles is limited at best.

On topic, why would you want fire mage to be brought down instead of wanting that Blizzard bring lower dps spec up?

If fire mage does 300k dps, and it's legendaries up it to 350k; and arms warrior (just an example) does 200k dps but it's legendaries up it to 340k, do you still want to nerf fire mage legendaries, or up arms warrior instead?

[Deleted]

If fire mage does 300k dps, and it's legendaries up it to 350k; and arms warrior (just an example) does 200k dps but it's legendaries up it to 340k

That would be unintended behavior because they stated a couple of weeks ago that their balancing is done in segments of the type "Balance without artifacts + Balance the Artifacts". It would follow that the legendaries must follow the same logic.

[enchiridion]

Hence why they should not have powerful legendaries, it would simply be like giving a guy in WW1 who already have a Tiger tank an M1 Abrahams instead, while all the others roll around in MKV buckets.

I sure hope you know your tanks by the way, else that analogy is probably wasted.

No, my knowledge about weapons and combat vehicles is limited at best.

On topic, why would you want fire mage to be brought down instead of wanting that Blizzard bring lower dps spec up?

If fire mage does 300k dps, and it's legendaries up it to 350k; and arms warrior (just an example) does 200k dps but it's legendaries up it to 340k, do you still want to nerf fire mage legendaries, or up arms warrior instead?

To add on what Torian Kel said, if a class has a large descrepancy on a base level, wouldnt you want the class itself to be buffed? I personally think the legendaries should be similar dps gains across all classes and i think that the recent hotfixes have taken a major step towards that. And honestly their best one has a tradeoff, high damage for a longer single cast and it seems pretty fair IMO.

[stomination]

Nerfing a class nerfs the raid which therefore nerfs every other class.

[stevenho]

Between IF, Shimmer, and all the instants you barely lose any uptime for your rotation (which is why 0 movement ST Simcraft is basically the same for us as a heavy movement one would be).

Basically the same? Default APL, 400secs+-10%, default T19 gear:
Patchwerk - 340k
Heavy movement ST - 297K

The Ring, on the other hand, is 100% contingent on you Lusting on pull.

No it isn't. Lusting on pull gives you at least 3 lusts instead of 2 which you will almost always get.

What most people don't take into account at all is personal_lust+combusting on add phases which outperforms bracers by miles. Thats real world right there instead of patchwerk sims.

[Torian kel]

What most people don't take into account at all is personal_lust+combusting on add phases which outperforms bracers by miles. Thats real world right there instead of patchwerk sims.

Ah we had a few hours without stevenho's insanity, but he's back, rejoice people.

Yet another proof you actually have no idea how to raid on progression, no guild will allow mages to lust at pull or before the raid leader decides it is most important, usually in heavy damage or execute phase, rendering the ring mediocre at best in progression.

[Deleted]

Default APL, 400secs+-10%, default T19 gear:
Patchwerk - 340k
Heavy movement ST - 297K

There is no Ice Floes or Blinking in any of those scripts. You have to write them yourself to test it. If I'm not mistaken for the entirety of WoD nobody did it either.

[stevenho]

Yet another proof you actually have no idea how to raid on progression, no guild will allow mages to lust at pull or before the raid leader decides it is most important, usually in heavy damage or execute phase, rendering the ring mediocre at best in progression.

You don't seem to understand basic concepts. There is no need to lust on pull to get double lust. Let me try and show you an example that might clear it up for you. Mythic Iskar progress:

1. everyone saves CDs and raid lusts on 1st add wave
2. you lust for yourself on 3rd add wave when CDs are back up
3. you destroy meters

Understand?

- - - Updated - - -

There is no Ice Floes or Blinking in any of those scripts. You have to write them yourself to test it. If I'm not mistaken for the entirety of WoD nobody did it either.

That's why I posted countless times to not go by simcraft results for real life fights that aren't 2 minute zakuuns.

[Deleted]

That's why I posted countless times to not go by simcraft results for real life fights.

You posted it as proof that movement fights lower dps. That would only make some sense if the mage had no ice floes or blink or scorch on its arsenal and I say "some" because one could make the case that movement fights can use different rotation scripting even without those spells.

[stevenho]

You posted it as proof

Nah. Let's treat it like an invitation to posting "proper" results. Are you able to provide them?

[Torian kel]

You don't seem to understand basic concepts. There is no need to lust on pull to get double lust. Let me try and show you an example that might clear it up for you. Mythic Iskar progress:

1. everyone saves CDs and raid lusts on 1st add wave
2. you lust for yourself on 3rd add wave when CDs are back up
3. you destroy meters

Understand?

Nobody lusts on Iskar's first wave. In progression lust was used to burn Iskar down in the air on the third wave of adds before the whole raid got chains of despair. But how would you know you killed him two weeks ago.

Because your previous argument is null and void, I will use every HFC M progression fight to see when a mage could bloodlust himself a second time, and assuming you're not lusting for the raid.

- Hellfire Assault : Bloodlust in transition when the crusher spawns, leaving the mage using it on second add phase.

- Iron reaver : Execute phase.

- Kormrok : Execute phase.

- Hellfire council : We used it on Dia, but most regular progressing guilds used it to push Gurtogg with only two to three blood boils, so 1 to 3 BL used.

- Kilrogg : Execute phase when people come out with stacks.

- Gorefiend : First feast of souls, leaving the mage to use it again on second feast. <= Actual huge dps gain.

- Iskar : See above

- Socrethar : On second or third dominator, leaving maybe one more bl use.

- Zakuun : Execute phase.

- Xhul'orac : Execute phase.

- Velhari : We used it to push the third add as quick as possible, but after strats started coming out we realized second add was much better. So in progression 1, other cases 2, maybe 3 if there is another mage in the raid.

- Mannoroth : Execute phase.

- Archimonde : We used it to push the end of P3, especially the second source of corruption, but most slower progressing guilds used it to skip P1, possible with enough gear. In cutting edge progression, 1 use, in regular progression at least3, possibly more depending on how many mages are in the raid.


So with this clear visual, we can see that if this ring was available in HFC, it would have been useful (for me) on 2 bosses out of 13.

[stevenho]

Nobody lusts on Iskar's first wave.

You failed to understand the meaning of "example". You could just as well write "but theres no iskar in legion" - would make as much sense.

I will use every HFC M progression fight to see when a mage could bloodlust himself a second time, and assuming you're not lusting for the raid.

Cool lets go. Checking world 1st kills because best is best, right?

- Hellfire Assault : Bloodlust in transition when the crusher spawns, leaving the mage using it on second add phase.

1:0

- Iron reaver : Execute phase.

Lust on pull used. Mages get 3 lusts.
2:0

- Kormrok : Execute phase.

Lust used 90 secs before boss death. Mages gets 2 lusts.
3:0

- Hellfire council : We used it on Dia, but most regular progressing guilds used it to push Gurtogg with only two to three blood boils, so 1 to 3 BL used.

Lust used 5:30 before boss dead. Mages get almost full 3 lusts.
4:0

- Kilrogg : Execute phase when people come out with stacks.

Lust used almost 5 mins before boss dies. Mages get 2 lusts, both of them with uber buff.

5:0

- Gorefiend : First feast of souls, leaving the mage to use it again on second feast. <= Actual huge dps gain.

6:0

- Iskar : See above

Lust used 2-3 minutes before boss dies. Mages get 2 lusts.
7:0

- Socrethar : On second or third dominator, leaving maybe one more bl use.

Lust used over 6 minutes before boss died. Mages get 3 lusts.
8:0

- Zakuun : Execute phase.

Lust used 90secs before boss dies. Mages get 2 full lusts.
9:0

- Xhul'orac : Execute phase.

Lust used 60 secs before boss dies so only half gain. Lets call it wasted.
9:1

- Velhari : We used it to push the third add as quick as possible, but after strats started coming out we realized second add was much better. So in progression 1, other cases 2, maybe 3 if there is another mage in the raid.

Lust used mid fight, allowing mages to utterly destroy meters with 2nd lust in execute-vulnerability phase.
10:1

- Mannoroth : Execute phase.

Lust used 3 mins before boss dies. Mages get 2 lusts.
11:1

- Archimonde : We used it to push the end of P3, especially the second source of corruption, but most slower progressing guilds used it to skip P1, possible with enough gear. In cutting edge progression, 1 use, in regular progression at least3, possibly more depending on how many mages are in the raid.

Lust used on pull. Magest get 3 lusts.
12:1

So with this clear visual, we can see that if this ring was available in HFC, it would have been useful (for me) on 2 bosses out of 13.

So with this clear visual, we can see that ring would provide second lust on 12 out of 13 bosses, and third lust on 4 of those.

[stomination]

And still no evidence it will deal more dmg than the bracers and highly affected by your raid teams strategy.

[stevenho]

I already wrote twice that the only "proof" will be logs of actual fights. Simcraft doesn't prove anything in this case.

[Deleted]

What most people don't take into account at all is personal_lust+combusting on add phases which outperforms bracers by miles. Thats real world right there instead of patchwerk sims.

hmm, so your big counter is that personal lust+combust on add phases outperforms the bracers by miles, well no1 said the bracers were better than the ring on aoe, we've always said bracers for ST and helm for aoe and the helm blows the ring out of the sky on aoe, in any situation the ring will always be 2nd best.

[stevenho]

My big counter to what?
All I said was that double-triple lust will be better for cutting edge progress. And that there are fights where bracers outperform ring.
That's all.

[Torian kel]

-Nonsense-

I think you're trolling again, it's the only logical explanation. I said -For me- and you just pull, what, Method kills? I quickly checked a couple of fights, none are what you wrote, so what, you're just lying an hoping nobody is going to check ?

Can we just collectively agree to ignore this guy?