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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    Also called the Worf/Wolverine Effect. When someone needs to be strong, they take strong characters and make them look weak in comparison.
    The Worf Effect is a bit more specific -- it's taking an established character whose perceived as being uniquely strong/powerful and having the new character handle them with relative ease, to establish that the new character is an exceptional threat.

    In a sense, the whole Broken Shore invasion could be considered WoW applying the Worf Effect to the whole of Azeroth, since almost all its greatest heroes were present and got soundly beaten.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    About coordinating -- what would sounding the horn and then sending a courier riding around to get down the ridge or just jumping off the cliff to tell the Alliance about the retreat have told them that the horn didn't already tell them, only later?
    At that point in time the horn was the best they could do. Which is why I feel they waited until the last possible second to notify the Alliance that the battle was going south. She yelled to Varian to hurry up but she didn't communicate just how screwed up things were becoming. Banter isn't a replacement for real tactical information.

    Horde should've shot more info to the Alliance and the Alliance should've kept better tabs on the army protecting their flank.
    Last edited by Kraddark; 2016-08-28 at 04:56 PM.
    "I pulled up to moonglade about 7 or 8
    and yelled to the trainer "yo resto cya."
    Looked at my talent tree, i was finally there.
    To go to Karazhan and tank in dire bear."
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    This. WoW Lore isn't supposed to be like a football league. Get a reality check.
    Umm...sports is "reality" then?

    Not arguing the fact that some people take lore/factions WAY too seriously in game but...Football? lol, power goes out and you are starving....you will care about football?
    lol

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    They quite literally used the paladin retreat completly untroubled about leaving the Alliances flank uncovered.
    They left Alliance flank uncovered to melee troops looking at them angrily from atop the cliff. The horror.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    Even if they just told the Alliance that they are about to be overrun instead jsut just fleeing the battlefield it would have given the Alliance a few seconds to go into a defensive position, it's more luck than anything that Varian called in that gunship beforehand.
    The horn conveyed that message just fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    I bet you they wouldn't have acted like that if those soldiers down there were Horde too.
    Because the Horde soldiers would get the signal for retreat and start retreating instead of going on "hurr durr, we shouldn't have trusted her" only to retreat immediately after Genn's rant was over anyway. Hell, it was even Genn who requested it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    What would you think about a friend that let's go of the fridge you are carrying up the stairs just like that because it's too heavy?
    You don't do that, you tell your friend to put it down gently.
    Is your friend getting fucked by the fridge and there is no direct danger to you if they drop it? If not, then your equivalence is false.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    Did those horn signs usually mean: "Turn tail and run with no regard"?
    Yes. And Alliance knows Horde signals. They captured one horn in Ashenvale and tricked the Horde into retreating after blowing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    You do know the story of DA:O, the part about Ostagar? Not exactly the same but they didn't have a chance to retreat either.
    "Well, they could have retreated when they saw the flanking attack wasn't coming."
    You sure do like them false equivalencies. At Ostagar the support troops were told to move out instead of being informed to do so by a horn signal, which means the main group was clueless about them retreating until it was too late for them. Not to mention the circumstances and purposes of the retreat were different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    PS: Sylvannas should still remember how to retreat properly, she did that the whole time while defending Quel'Danas against Arthas.
    What was improper about Sylvanas' retreat? In case you missed it, other Horde leaders consider her the savior of the faction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    Sylvannas should have known that they are about t be overrun and should have communicated that to Varian. You can't see shit of what's going on on that plateau from down below.
    Not only were Horde forces split into two fronts because Alliance is too incompetent to bring their own ranged forces for aerial control (other than Jaina who didn't do as much as she could given her previous battle track record), leaving Sylvanas focusing on babysitting Varian's ass and facing away from the main Horde force, they retreated after the Legion spaceships warped in and bombarded them. How should have they known that it would happen, exactly? And you can actually see the spaceships and their bombardment just fine from down below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    She had the Valkyr to wisk them out of combat in an instant, the Alliance only had a gunship that was a few minutes out.
    Also the Horde didn't just run off leaving their wounded behind either. They did have the time for their own.
    Yes, let's ignore the part where Val'kyr carried only the severely wounded and that others left on foot. And it doesn't even address the point you were replying to. Which was that the Horde had the exact same warning as the Alliance. Which is fact. And Alliance "only" had air evac? And it wasn't few minutes out. It was almost immediately after the Horde left, with the gunship being called in even before the Horde retreated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    And how is Khadgar now an Alliance member? He fought on your side as much as on the alliances side.
    By being a citizen of Dalaran and member of the Kirin Tor? Dalaran started officially working with the Horde again only after Broken Shore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    PS Horde players you are bad. Just accept what your faction was weak and run like cowards.
    Because the Alliance totally did not retreat too. Despite the Horde's retreat putting them in no disadvantageous position instantly, since the demons from the ridge would need to run around the entire island to get to them. And yet the Alliance felt they couldn't do it without Horde's support despite being all "victory is ours" moments earlier and their gunship covering the air support after Dark Rangers left. On the other hand Horde was split in two, with one part babysitting the Alliance that was too incompetent to bring their own anti-air units other than the Gunship (why they called it in late is also unknown, yet illogical) and were not supported by the Alliance in turn in the slightest because Alliance 1. couldn't reach them 2. had no range units by their own admission. But yes, obviously the Alliance is the super strong and awesome faction here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Well, "thinking through" can be a real herculean effort for some enlightened minds.
    Irony explosion hur hur hur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  5. #105
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakaranailol View Post
    I just want to know how literally every alliance knows Sylvanas leads the forsaken of the horde and is now currently the Warchief of the horde yet her sister knows nothing of that.
    Vereesa is a moron. An irrational moron, the books made this clear. But I could have sworn vereesa knew.
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2016-08-28 at 06:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    This. WoW Lore isn't supposed to be like a football league. Get a reality check.
    You're joking... right?

  7. #107
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Irony explosion hur hur hur.
    Something something lack of self awareness something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    You're joking... right?
    He's not wrong nor right. I mean...the lore isn't supposed to be like that but WoW's very structure (two factions that mirror and oppose each other, included competitive PvP) make it easy to go overboard with the faction bias and apply it everywhere becomes inevitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    He's not wrong nor right. I mean...the lore isn't supposed to be like that but WoW's very structure (two factions that mirror and oppose each other, included competitive PvP) make it easy to go overboard with the faction bias and apply it everywhere becomes inevitable.
    Not saying he's wrong, but... its as silly to get overworked by the football leagues.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Not saying he's wrong, but... its as silly to get overworked by the football leagues.
    Not saying is smart when people do that over football teams but the comparison would hold more ground if BGs and PvP would be everything this game is about with little to zero lore, just the necessary to justify the fighting. While WoW does just that to a certain extent, the lore isn't ultimately about Alliance and Horde hating and killing each other for HKs but trying to cooperate against common foes and occasionally failing to do that, either for mistrust, old hatreds or whatever, which means that getting so overworked towards X or Y faction is pointless when it comes to lore, as the story is purposely designed to show both perspectives and see how everyone has a reason to do what they do and how no one is necessarily right or wrong. That's pretty much what Warcraft is about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  10. #110
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chitika View Post
    Yes, she did hold on as long as she could but "I am leaving in a minute" would have been better than "I am gone".
    "I am leaving in a minute" is not how retreats work. Once the horn sounds, it means GTFO.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    No. He died like an idiot because he was too stupid to get the airship to shoot the fel reaver in the face.
    Those cannon rounds appeared to explode on contact with the ground. Not sure firing those point blank would be a good idea for a flying vessel made (at least partially) out of wood. That said, the alliance appeared to be fighting less demons than the horde were trying to hold off, while being flanked at the same time. Both had valid reasons to withdraw from combat, the Alliance just waited too long.

  12. #112
    If Sylvanas hadn't retreated, Gul'dan would have taken a turn with each Horde person, saying "You will be remembered as the [insert occupation] who sacrificed himself...for nothing~"

    It would have served nobody for the Horde and Alliance to both stay there and both die and leave their kingdoms shattered and relatively leaderless.

    Humans are the core of the Alliance, and they're only surviving now because Anduin apparently became ready to be king just in the nick of time.

    Gnomes would probably be fine without Mekkatorque because they're just the dwarves' sidekicks anyway.

    Worgen would be at least as fine as the humans, because let's face it, if you become a huge, powerful monster with razor sharp claws and fangs and superhuman physical abilities and...choose to fight exactly like any other plain old normal human, with a sword or spells, you're just a furry human, and would be just fine living with other humans and following whatever leader they choose.

    Orcs would be sad without Thrall and Vol'jin, but might be okay, at least until Saurfang dies and Blizzard decides it's time to make orcs evil for the umpteenth time without their moral compass.


    Trolls would be lost, and probably are going to be for several expansions, or possibly the rest of WoW. Tell me you remember (without looking them up) more than 5 notable Darkspear trolls who've actually done anything and have been developed at least 10% as much as Vol'jin. The only notable names I know are Master Gadrin and Bwemba, who I can't quite recall with certainty if she's either the first druid from the pre-Cata Echo Isles event, or if she's that emissary Vol'jin sent to tell the Horde and Alliance about the Zandalari in ZG and ZA during Cataclysm. Rokhan is not a notable character. He was in WC3 for like two seconds as a speaking character, and has been involved in maybe one quest since then, until WoD when he sent the garrison commander to go do his own dirty work.

    I doubt many know that Vol'jin has sons and a wife (or wives), as his son whose soul you rescue in Stranglethorn Vale is described as his "youngest son."


    Forsaken would be lost and become bland without Sylvanas, because she's basically their entire identity, and they're nothing without her.

    Tauren would also be bereft of a leader with few to replace him, and we'd get Magatha trying to take over Thunder Bluff yet again.



    Genn showed his character by automatically assuming that the Horde sounding their horn of retreat meant that they were deliberately walking out on the Alliance to spite them and get them killed. I like how Varian shows just how much he's grown as a character from one that just went "rawr for the alliance death to the horde" to appease the rabid lawful-good bullheaded Alliance fanboys (a role now filled by Jaina and Genn) to one that genuinely wanted peace and knew what was necessary to achieve it. His reaction when he sees Sylvanas' dark rangers retreating (to me, at least) feels like he didn't want to believe as Genn did that the Horde was betraying them. He seemed to genuinely trust them, and seemed afraid that he'd been wrong, like he wanted to believe the best of them. I really wish we could have seen how things would have played out had Varian survived and returned to Stormwind, so we could see exactly what he thought, because I'm sure the aforementioned fanboys will probably convince themselves that Varian thought just like Genn did.


    The cinematic is meant to show that, at least in that moment, many of the Alliance gathered at the Broken Shore thought the Horde had betrayed them.

    In Grommash Hold afterward, the Horde leaders know that Varian is dead and the Alliance want revenge against them, so I highly doubt that the Alliance are unaware of Vol'jin's serious injury, or the fact that the Horde were overrun and had to retreat. If they are aware and simply refuse to see the situation as it really is, then they're just dumb.


    Anyone who thinks that the key to the Legion's defeat is to die a futile, useless death, just because "victory or death", or "honor", is also dumb.

  13. #113
    High adrenaline situation. I don't fault Varian for making a hasty, despairing judgment. Had he made it onto the gunship, I have little doubt he'd have held that line of thinking; away from the battle he'd probably realize that they wouldn't have retreated for no reason and certainly weren't there to sign up for Legion camp or something... and above all he would have actually made a point to reach out to the other side to find out what actually happened, which apparently the whole surviving corps of the Alliance are too stupid and/or bigoted to do without him.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Saafe View Post
    I think I chose a great time to act smart. Reguardless, they still left them alone to fight the Legion, if it was just a simple retreat as you say, Genn wouldn't have said "I knew she couldn't be trusted" Is he blinded by his hatred against Sylvanas? Or is he too dumb to understand??? What of Varians "She wouldnt..." ????
    *sigh* you say that and then you just repeat yourself like its a counter point. Hell you even dug deeper into the same lines, which were countered. Whatever you're doing, its not smart.

    What exactly could the horde have done? The Alliance were at the bottom of the cliff, unreachable by the horde. The Alliance are big boys who know how to retreat, the horn was a clear indication and they had a big air ship which they used. Hell the Alliance had even more time to realize the fight was lost when dozens, DOZENS, of Legion Bosses were summoned. Dont just look at the big guys, look at the rest who came with them around Guldan. The Eredar twins from sunwell are there, amongst so many others. That was the moment there was no hope, even if the horde had held the ridge.

    The Alliance never even fought the demons the horde were fighting outside of the flyers, Varian see's the demon army are still on the ridge while they were leaving, they never joined the fight below. So what would have been the point of the horde staying behind any longer other than making retreat impossible?

    and again, their lines indicate they knew exactly what the horn meant. In no possible context does it indicate them being unaware of the retreat. Yes Genn is blinded by hatred because of the war in cata with the forsaken.

    They said that because they couldn't see the situation at the top of the ridge. They didn't know the reasons for the retreat, there was no time to communicate the matter and Genn is not a reasonable person who would understand.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Saafe View Post
    It is a counter point. Before you say others aren't smart you should probably you know...be smart yourself. Genn isn't reasonable when it comes to Sylvanas of course, but Varian was reasonable and he came to the same conclusion. I'm not sure what you're getting at as what I'm saying is completely different to whatever you keep replying to me with. Perhaps Varian is just stupid?
    I explained why your counter point held no water and all you had to say was "it is a counter point" like that magically does something. You keep just repeating my own words back to me like its supposed to mean something. You earn points from that only in middle school tv drama's. Not only that, but you don't even support or justify your words. Your reasoning was not logically connected to the points you were trying to make. Not only that but you followed it up by repeating your previous statement again. Do you even see the sheer daftness in repeating the same thing as a counter against the counterpoint against it?

    You are specifically focusing on parts of what i said and ignoring the rest (even if its in the same sentence) because its inconvenient to your arguement.

    I already stated, Neither Varian nor Genn had a view of what was going up on the ridge. Varian was right, Sylvanas wouldn't just abandon them....without a good reason! (like the imminent death of EVERYONE and utter failure of the mission, because it was a huge legion trap). Varians words were the more reasonable and doubtful, open to alternatives. Genn automatically shot off with the worst possible conclusion.

    Why are you even stating what Varian and Genn said again? How does saying "varian came to the same conclusion" support your initial points? Why are you making a new argument unrelated to the discussion at hand? I already said, all their words prove they immediately realized the horde was retreating and that they didn't know why.

    "She wouldn't" is a stock phrase of disbelief that something you know is true is actually happening. it does not mean he said "no they aren't", it does not mean "That horn must be something else". Not only that but their words and actions the very next second proved they already knew what it meant and that they knew they had to retreat. All of this was said in a minute or few after they heard the horn. They had their retreat right above their heads, the horde had to rush back to their ships on the shore.

    Additionally, given the situation Sylvanas gave them the best heads up she could, where all other alternatives would have led to a failed retreat and the doom of both factions. The horn simultaneously called the valkyr to help the retreat and warned the Alliance who were also in a failing battle. Even if we go with what you're saying, what other alternatives were there that would have led to a better situation other than an immediate and full retreat?

    Now do you have anything to actually say that carries any weight that isnt a repetition of something shot down or copied from what i said?

    TLDR: Sylv gave them ample warning of retreat during a dire situation, there was nothing else she could do for them given their positions and desperate situations. They clearly knew it was a retreat, though not why. It was a good reason because everyone would have died. Any alternative other than immediate retreat (which did happen) would have led to the demise of both. Any organized retreat was out the window because of bad information the factions were fed. The entire thing was a trap setup by the legion, the only reason it wasn't completely successful was because of Sylv.
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2016-08-29 at 09:13 AM.

  16. #116
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    High adrenaline situation. I don't fault Varian for making a hasty, despairing judgment. Had he made it onto the gunship, I have little doubt he'd have held that line of thinking; away from the battle he'd probably realize that they wouldn't have retreated for no reason and certainly weren't there to sign up for Legion camp or something... and above all he would have actually made a point to reach out to the other side to find out what actually happened, which apparently the whole surviving corps of the Alliance are too stupid and/or bigoted to do without him.
    The only ones incensed by what happened seem to be Jaina and Genn, who both have understandable reasons to vehemently distrust the Horde.

    Malf and Velen outright say how stupid it would be to go against the Horde with the Legion waiting in the wings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darchi
    Thx America for destroying Europe and world and all mess you cause bcs of your selfishness and only thinking abot yourself and of your interest, creating IS, killing in the name of democracy, etc etc...

  18. #118
    The assault on the broken shore was doomed to begin with.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Saafe View Post
    It is a counter point. Before you say others aren't smart you should probably you know...be smart yourself. Genn isn't reasonable when it comes to Sylvanas of course, but Varian was reasonable and he came to the same conclusion. I'm not sure what you're getting at as what I'm saying is completely different to whatever you keep replying to me with. Perhaps Varian is just stupid?
    Varian, in the middle of a battle, picked up the ball Genn threw toward him and ran with it for the last 5 minutes of his life. I don't think it represents his considered judgment on the subject.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post

    I already stated, Neither Varian nor Genn had a view of what was going up on the ridge. Varian was right, Sylvanas wouldn't just abandon them....without a good reason! (like the imminent death of EVERYONE and utter failure of the mission, because it was a huge legion trap). Varians words were the more reasonable and doubtful, open to alternatives. Genn automatically shot off with the worst possible conclusion.

    Why are you even stating what Varian and Genn said again? How does saying "varian came to the same conclusion" support your initial points? Why are you making a new argument unrelated to the discussion at hand? I already said, all their words prove they immediately realized the horde was retreating and that they didn't know why.

    "She wouldn't" is a stock phrase of disbelief that something you know is true is actually happening. it does not mean he said "no they aren't", it does not mean "That horn must be something else". Not only that but their words and actions the very next second proved they already knew what it meant and that they knew they had to retreat. All of this was said in a minute or few after they heard the horn. They had their retreat right above their heads, the horde had to rush back to their ships on the shore.

    Additionally, given the situation Sylvanas gave them the best heads up she could, where all other alternatives would have led to a failed retreat and the doom of both factions. The horn simultaneously called the valkyr to help the retreat and warned the Alliance who were also in a failing battle. Even if we go with what you're saying, what other alternatives were there that would have led to a better situation other than an immediate and full retreat?

    Now do you have anything to actually say that carries any weight that isnt a repetition of something shot down or copied from what i said?

    TLDR: Sylv gave them ample warning of retreat during a dire situation, there was nothing else she could do for them given their positions and desperate situations. They clearly knew it was a retreat, though not why. It was a good reason because everyone would have died. Any alternative other than immediate retreat (which did happen) would have led to the demise of both. Any organized retreat was out the window because of bad information the factions were fed. The entire thing was a trap setup by the legion, the only reason it wasn't completely successful was because of Sylv.
    As you may be right in defining Varian's words as not a conclusive acceptance of Horde betrayal, it is still words that illustrate doubt, along with the visual cues of facial expression in the cinematic. As for the horn, I simply do not see it as a warning to the Alliance that they are retreating. It was blown primarily for the horde troops that they should retreat.

    As many posters before me had said the horde did not make any effort to relay their situation to the Alliance or make any effort to provide assistance with an combined retreat. Sylvanas acted on the behalf of Voljin's request and the request was not to let the horde die there. The gunship was called in not for a retreat, but to finish things off as it was substantially easier waves that the Alliance faced, until the final summoning of all the named legion commanders.

    I do not blame Sylvanas or Horde for retreating. It was a horrible situation and both factions walked into a trap. However the writers intention is to emphasize the misunderstanding between factions. For the Alliance it is an event that will make them at best reluctant to work with the horde, and in worst be openly hostile toward them in the Battlefield.

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