so how is ret dps in legion?

[Redblade]

If you go take a look at the rogue forums, everyone is saying that outlaw is now the go-to spec for serious mythic raiding, that it's objectively better on single target and AoE. *shrugs* I'm not a rogue so I haven't put the same effort into researching rogue as I have ret.

As far as I know all three specs have their place in mythic rading, before the nerfs assassin was the way to go.

With 0% haste, Crusade already causes judgment to last longer than the CD. So I don't know why that would suddenly be an issue.

Because it's not permanent...

While it's not some undisputed authority icy-veins guide puts crusade behind DP.

[OrcsRLame]

As far as I know all three specs have their place in mythic rading, before the nerfs assassin was the way to go.



Because it's not permanent...

While it's not some undisputed authority icy-veins guide puts crusade behind DP.

Icy Veins is fucking idiotic if they say that. I don't care who wrote the damn guide, they're wrong. Like, if you play the spec at 110 with even a halfway decent artifact, it's self evident that Crusade is miles better than DP. It's like the difference between having trinkets equipped and not having trinkets equipped.

[Redblade]

Icy Veins is fucking idiotic if they say that. I don't care who wrote the damn guide, they're wrong. Like, if you play the spec at 110 with even a halfway decent artifact, it's self evident that Crusade is miles better than DP. It's like the difference between having trinkets equipped and not having trinkets equipped.

Prove it...that seems to be what you're telling everyone else here to do when they say ret DPS just isn't on par.

[OrcsRLame]

Looks to me like the Icy Veins guide is for prepatch, not EN. It specifically mentions DP being good on normal length kills in pre patch.

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Prove it...that seems to be what you're telling everyone else here to do when they say ret DPS just isn't on par.

You got beta? Laurcus#1712. Hit me up. If you can tank or heal, that'd be wonderful, cause waiting in queue sucks. I'm Horde right now but willing to swap back to Alliance.

[Deleted]

I "push" for Crusade because in my experience no other talent is even remotely close.

Wouldn't the legendary cloak push more towards dp? (and the other way around with the ring)

Also need opinions - retri pala vs fury warrior for a semi casual raider - which one would work better? We already have a paladin (holy) and 2 warriors (fury + prot) and I like both playstyles, but I just can't pick one (I really, REALLY like them both)

[Kithelle]

Ret will be fine. If it isn't now, it will be. Stop basing your choices on numbers, you should know what a rollercoaster that is.

Considering that 2 out of 3 of our blessings being useless made it to live, I'm not surprised some people don't have much faith.

[marinos]

Icy veins guide is still being updated for Legion,currently is in pre-patch mode. Should be updated later today or tomorrow.

[OrcsRLame]

Wouldn't the legendary cloak push more towards dp? (and the other way around with the ring)

Also need opinions - retri pala vs fury warrior for a semi casual raider - which one would work better? We already have a paladin (holy) and 2 warriors (fury + prot) and I like both playstyles, but I just can't pick one (I really, REALLY like them both)

Idk, I ain't a mathematician. In my testing, I didn't notice the damage difference between DP and Crusade change much if at all when using Whisper of the Nathrezim.

[Redblade]

Looks to me like the Icy Veins guide is for prepatch, not EN. It specifically mentions DP being good on normal length kills in pre patch.

Not entirely sure but at this point pre-patch is over so should probably be shifted towards release.

You got beta? Laurcus#1712. Hit me up. If you can tank or heal, that'd be wonderful, cause waiting in queue sucks. I'm Horde right now but willing to swap back to Alliance.

Got beta but can't tank nor heal, that wouldn't be actual proof though.

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Icy veins guide is still being updated for Legion,currently is in pre-patch mode. Should be updated later today or tomorrow.

Fair enough, wasn't sure if it was done yet or not.

[ThunSaren]

Heres some ret sims for you guys to chew on : https://simc.derig.org/static/sims.html Crusade is the king, with HW ( :O ) being a very niche thing for aoe, The cloak doesn not favour DP as with certain haste level you have no problems whatsoever to keep it up a lot if not all time, the sims have that info aswell, do note that sim dps reflects not much, and should not be taken as the aboslute maximum the spec can do, as these sims are still not final, it does give a rough understanding of talents and artifact possibilities, and the stat priorities these different combinations put us in.

[OrcsRLame]

Not entirely sure but at this point pre-patch is over so should probably be shifted towards release.



Got beta but can't tank nor heal, that wouldn't be actual proof though.

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Fair enough, wasn't sure if it was done yet or not.

So, is that a no? I mean, what do you want from me? The best I got is I can demonstrate in actual gameplay, that at least for me, Crusade wins out by a shit ton. I mean, part of the problem with this whole situation is I do not have high confidence, (for various reasons, most of which I've gone over) in the usual means, (sims and logs) for evaluating in an objective sense which specs are good/bad. If such proof existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. The only reasons I've asked for said proof so much, is because everyone else seems to be convinced that ret is bad, and I want to know how people arrived at that conclusion, because maybe I'm wrong.

I'm willing to dps queue if you are. We can make a day of it, (assuming you play ret) we can alternate between running DP and Crusade, try and get some semblance of data.

[Found]

And you're not going to get diminished values from Crusade. The GCD floor in Legion is 0.75 seconds. Good fucking luck hitting that even during lust. Maybe if you stack the ever living fuck out of haste, then maybe in T21 you'll have issues with haste capping during lust, but if that happens we'll just go Virtue's Blade and shift towards crit.

Hitting the GCD cap in Legion requires 100% haste. When you have Crusade at 15 stacks and Bloodlust running, even with 0% haste from gear, you already reach 98% haste. You need about 0.9% haste from gear to hit 100% haste during max-stack Crusade + Bloodlust; hardly difficult to reach.

[Redblade]

Heres some ret sims for you guys to chew on : https://simc.derig.org/static/sims.html Crusade is the king, with HW ( :O ) being a very niche thing for aoe, The cloak doesn not favour DP as with certain haste level you have no problems whatsoever to keep it up a lot if not all time, the sims have that info aswell, do note that sim dps reflects not much, and should not be taken as the aboslute maximum the spec can do, as these sims are still not final, it does give a rough understanding of talents and artifact possibilities, and the stat priorities these different combinations put us in.

Now that's more solid info in favor of Crusade, thanks. Would be interesting to see how set bonuses and i-lvl affect the balance.

[OrcsRLame]

Heres some ret sims for you guys to chew on : https://simc.derig.org/static/sims.html Crusade is the king, with HW ( :O ) being a very niche thing for aoe, The cloak doesn not favour DP as with certain haste level you have no problems whatsoever to keep it up a lot if not all time, the sims have that info aswell, do note that sim dps reflects not much, and should not be taken as the aboslute maximum the spec can do, as these sims are still not final, it does give a rough understanding of talents and artifact possibilities, and the stat priorities these different combinations put us in.

Who are you and where have you been? I could fuckin' kiss you right now.

Loving the trinket stuff btw. That feel when you have BiS trinkets on beta... I fucking knew Faulty Countermeasures was god tier.

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Hitting the GCD cap in Legion requires 100% haste. When you have Crusade at 15 stacks and Bloodlust running, even with 0% haste from gear, you already reach 98% haste. You need about 0.9% haste from gear to hit 100% haste during max-stack Crusade + Bloodlust; hardly difficult to reach.

I'd heard that it took significantly more haste than that. If that's the case then we'll probably be using VB much earlier.

[Redblade]

So, is that a no? I mean, what do you want from me? The best I got is I can demonstrate in actual gameplay, that at least for me, Crusade wins out by a shit ton. I mean, part of the problem with this whole situation is I do not have high confidence, (for various reasons, most of which I've gone over) in the usual means, (sims and logs) for evaluating in an objective sense which specs are good/bad. If such proof existed, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. The only reasons I've asked for said proof so much, is because everyone else seems to be convinced that ret is bad, and I want to know how people arrived at that conclusion, because maybe I'm wrong.

The sims proved you right about Crusade and I'm more than willing to accept that. As for good or bad I can't say more than, from what I've seen, ret sims around 220-240 single target and by above sim 360-380 AOE which as far as I've seen low compared to some other classes logs.

Compare to rogue for example...https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...HxBKV_biTNzfRY

I'm willing to dps queue if you are. We can make a day of it, (assuming you play ret) we can alternate between running DP and Crusade, try and get some semblance of data.

I would have earlier on but re-rolled a couple of chars on friends new server so sorting professions and some basic gold build up until launch.

[OrcsRLame]

The sims proved you right about Crusade and I'm more than willing to accept that. As for good or bad I can't say more than, from what I've seen, ret sims around 210-230 single target and by above sim 360-380 AOE which as far as I've seen low compared to some other classes logs.



I would have earlier on but re-rolled a couple of chars on friends new server so sorting professions and some basic gold build up until launch.

Fair enough. I should probably be on live too tbh, gotta power level my alchemy. I did kind of wait till 11:59 to start stirring up shit in the ret community, so that's my fault.

[Found]

The sims proved you right about Crusade and I'm more than willing to accept that. As for good or bad I can't say more than, from what I've seen, ret sims around 210-230 single target and by above sim 360-380 AOE which as far as I've seen low compared to some other classes logs.

Compare to rogue for example...https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...HxBKV_biTNzfRY

Comparing classes given different sim runs is a fool's errand - depending on fight lengths, talent setups, gear profiles, target counts, etc, different specs will perform differently. Retribution is also a bit underestimated in most simulations: Shield of Vengeance does a lot of damage, but in the sims I ran (which ThunSaren linked above - if you see any bugs or issues in those sims, please let me know so I can fix things) it was not accounted for at all, and it isn't used by default. At 840 ilvl, on single-target, it seems to account for roughly an extra 10k dps. Not catching us up to rogues or anything, but putting us up around the mid to upper tier of specs that aren't obvious outliers.

[marinos]

In general, from what I have seen, when it comes to cleave we are going to fall a bit behind compared to other melees atm. Zeal and DH could use some love.

[Redblade]

Comparing classes given different sim runs is a fool's errand - depending on fight lengths, talent setups, gear profiles, target counts, etc, different specs will perform differently.

It might be but in the end that's what we have available. If this was GGG who develops PoE for example I'm sure they would have given us charts for each class from their internal testing together with methods used to prove that they are doing what they can to balance classes.

Sadly Blizzard doesn't have that open relationship with the community nor do they seem to care too much about reasonable balance.

[OrcsRLame]

Comparing classes given different sim runs is a fool's errand - depending on fight lengths, talent setups, gear profiles, target counts, etc, different specs will perform differently. Retribution is also a bit underestimated in most simulations: Shield of Vengeance does a lot of damage, but in the sims I ran (which ThunSaren linked above - if you see any bugs or issues in those sims, please let me know so I can fix things) it was not accounted for at all, and it isn't used by default. At 840 ilvl, on single-target, it seems to account for roughly an extra 10k dps. Not catching us up to rogues or anything, but putting us up around the mid to upper tier of specs that aren't obvious outliers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in those ret sims, I don't see any sim that is done at 840 ilvl with an optimized gear set for single target, using 2 trinkets and a 34 point artifact. Which seems to be what the combat rogue T19P sim is. I mean, 34 points at 840 ilvl is kind of unrealistic to begin with. Personally, the type of sim I'd like to see is 40 traits, 878 ilvl, a well optimized gear set and one legendary, single target. I'd like to see that for every class tbh, because I think that's a very realistic level of gear to have for mythic Xavius progression for most guilds that are not top 50 but will kill him before Nighthold.