Arms Legion Discussion

[globezorz]

So you didn't watch the vid or play on the beta I take it? No one said anything of not doing the base mythics, either.

Crafted gear is still a waste of time/money/mats except for the JC pieces that give class/specc buffs.

I actually prefer to use my brain and personal experience and get information from several sources and make an informed decision, imagine that! I also like to actually read what people say when having discussions with them, instead of twisting words to make snarky remarks that don't make sense. But I see you blindly follow what information you see regardless of validity. Enjoy your game and your ignore!

[Mnesymne]

I think it would work a lot better. Enhance shamans have auto attacks and rockbiter to generate maelstrom. Demon Hunters have auto attacks and (insert the name of their move here) to generate fury. I don't see why Arms is the only spec that relys solely on auto attacks. IMO just make CS and MS generate rage, and Slam/WW/OP/anything else spend it. It's how it used to be and I loved it.

there are already times where you can't get rid of your rage fast enough. And now you want to add builders to it as well....

[Wazooty]

there are already times where you can't get rid of your rage fast enough. And now you want to add builders to it as well....

Don't use dauntless?

[globezorz]

Even with using overpower, in both build setups, I find myself generally always having enough rage more often then not. And in the not situations charge is generally enough for me, either through heroic leap/charge combo or simply running away and charging back in. Both can be done in the time of a melee swing, which if you're tracking, is easy to time.

[Xanthan]

Still waiting on an explanation of how an obvious DpR advantage in Execute's favor means we completely ignore it for 2 abilities that are 30% lower DpR.

There is no reasonable explanation other than there must be bugs in SimCraft. It's unbelievably obvious that an ability that does more damage per rage and damage per execution time than another is going to be worth using over it. How anyone could think otherwise is just beyond me. "Theorycrafting" these days apparently begins and ends with, "I know how to operate SimCraft."

[Archimtiros]

What are you even talking about? Orc blademaster in WC3 is a damn definition of precision and tactics.

Inb4 orc blademasters are not canon or something.

Well technically they aren't Warriors, but that's not really the point.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no reasonable explanation other than there must be bugs in SimCraft. It's unbelievably obvious that an ability that does more damage per rage and damage per execution time than another is going to be worth using over it. How anyone could think otherwise is just beyond me. "Theorycrafting" these days apparently begins and ends with, "I know how to operate SimCraft."

People like you are under the mistaken impression that "theorycrafting" is an exact process; it's not.

It's a result of endless hours of trying things, making changes both big and small, then trying all over again and comparing results. "How to operate simcraft" is a big part of it, for obvious reasons, as it allows the process to be both sped up and reduce sample bias. Speaking as someone who's been involved in the process since the earliest days of the game, this isn't anything new either; theorycrafters have been using programs like SimCraft since the earliest days of WoW, whether it was in the form of a spreadsheet, RAWR, Shadowcraft, or another program. Yes, things are wrong on occasion, and were then as well, which is why it's a continual process and never really "done". It's also, coincidentally, why it's called theorycrafting.

Still, I'd rather rely on "simcraft theorycrafting" than "this sounds better in my head so everyone else must be wrong". One has proof, and even if the basis ends up flawed, it's still better than baseless conjecture.

[nyjl]

Well blademaster had bladestorm.

[ReD-EyeD]

Well technically they aren't Warriors, but that's not really the point.

Well, in name they are "gladiators", but whatever you call them they're still generally warriors.

[Archimtiros]

Well, in name they are "gladiators", but whatever you call them they're still generally warriors.

Nope. As per cannon, Blademasters, Gladiators, Dark Rangers, and all the other "NPC-only" classes are not Warriors or their other primary class counterparts. They are their own unique classes, despite any overlap between abilities or themes.

[ReD-EyeD]

Nope. As per cannon, Blademasters, Gladiators, Dark Rangers, and all the other "NPC-only" classes are not Warriors or their other primary class counterparts. They are their own unique classes, despite any overlap between abilities or themes.

I'm kinda agreeing with you, but not really. I still look at arms warriors as cold blooded tacticians, than angry crazy barbarians. Heck we have talents like "Deadly Calm", "Anger Management", "Focused Rage" and many others.

[Archimtiros]

I'm kinda agreeing with you, but not really. I still look at arms warriors as cold blooded tacticians, than angry crazy barbarians. Heck we have talents like "Deadly Calm", "Anger Management", "Focused Rage" and many others.

Well, that doesn't really have anything to do with the concept of NPC-classes. I'd instead refer you back to this post:

Because the classes are multi-faceted rather than just one thing.

Fury Warriors aren't mindless berserkers. Yes, they follow the raging berserker theme, but that doesn't automatically mean they are dull-witted, rage-aholics, or adrenaline junkies, they're still Warriors.

Similarly, Arms Warriors aren't just mindless brutes wildly swinging a large weapon, they are also Knights, Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries, and brawlers. You name Garrosh/Grom, and while they might be brutish, even though both did some f'd up stuff, and inevitably fell in combat, it's hard to argue that they didn't possess keen tactical minds.

Classes in WoW (attempt to) encompass many fantasies under a few common themes. Inevitably there will be some conflict, but don't take each spell as indicative as the whole of the theme.

[Xanthan]

People like you are under the mistaken impression that "theorycrafting" is an exact process; it's not.

It's a result of endless hours of trying things, making changes both big and small, then trying all over again and comparing results. "How to operate simcraft" is a big part of it, for obvious reasons, as it allows the process to be both sped up and reduce sample bias. Speaking as someone who's been involved in the process since the earliest days of the game, this isn't anything new either; theorycrafters have been using programs like SimCraft since the earliest days of WoW, whether it was in the form of a spreadsheet, RAWR, Shadowcraft, or another program. Yes, things are wrong on occasion, and were then as well, which is why it's a continual process and never really "done". It's also, coincidentally, why it's called theorycrafting.

Still, I'd rather rely on "simcraft theorycrafting" than "this sounds better in my head so everyone else must be wrong". One has proof, and even if the basis ends up flawed, it's still better than baseless conjecture.

I've theorycrafted for years. I've written my own simulator from scratch. I'm well aware of how the process works and why it works. An enormous part of testing the validity of any simulation is drawing conclusions from simple napkin math and confirming the simulator result holds up(or re-confirming your assumptions are accurate when it challenges your expectations).

Execute is an obvious case here. It isn't baseless conjecture to point out it deals more damage per rage and damage per execution time than Slam. Ergo, using execute is superior to using Slam. That's pretty much theorycrafting a person playing this game for 20 minutes can figure out, as about a dozen people already did in the recent posts. It's even better in Deadly Calm builds for obvious reasons: It deals almost triple the damage of Slam, and counts as burning 40 rage instead of 20 for tactician procs. There's absolutely no reason it could ever be worse than Slam inside of Deadly Calm at the very least.

When that expectation that execute is significantly better than slam fails to hold up under simulation, the first thought that goes through your head ought to be, "Why is the simulator wrong?" Instead, a whole lot of people demonstrate an incredible lack of critical thinking and just assume the answer box is right without even the slightest pause. Simulations must be constantly questioned and re-verified when their results defy our basic expectations.

[CollisionTD]

There is no reasonable explanation other than there must be bugs in SimCraft. It's unbelievably obvious that an ability that does more damage per rage and damage per execution time than another is going to be worth using over it. How anyone could think otherwise is just beyond me. "Theorycrafting" these days apparently begins and ends with, "I know how to operate SimCraft."

Yep.

https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...26fd8aa7520cd2

The number of lines it takes to code an ability in simc is usually around 30-50 inside class modules. Execute is a monster with 322 lines, because of variable rage cost combined with tactician/dauntless/deadly clam/legendary ring. Add on top that sweeping strikes from Execute are delayed 0.5~ seconds, unlike Mortal Strike which are instant.

I fixed it though, and execute is now worth using, just not worth spamming.

[Xanthan]

Yep.

https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...26fd8aa7520cd2

The number of lines it takes to code an ability in simc is usually around 30-50 inside class modules. Execute is a monster with 322 lines, because of variable rage cost combined with tactician/dauntless/deadly clam/legendary ring. Add on top that sweeping strikes from Execute are delayed 0.5~ seconds, unlike Mortal Strike which are instant.

I fixed it though, and now execute is now worth using, just not worth spamming.

Awesome, good stuff! That wasn't meant to come off as an attack on SimCraft or anything by the way. It's a complex beast, bugs are bound to crop up, and I really appreciate all the work you put into it.

[Archimtiros]

I've theorycrafted for years. I've written my own simulator from scratch. I'm well aware of how the process works and why it works. An enormous part of testing the validity of any simulation is drawing conclusions from simple napkin math and confirming the simulator result holds up(or re-confirming your assumptions are accurate when it challenges your expectations).

And what makes you think we don't do that as well? You think our process is wholly comprised of "sim says this, do this" you're sorely mistaken. To put into perspective, I'm not even working on Arms primarily, so I'm not invested in this particular issue, but the disdain with which you talk about the people going out of their way to do this work for you is not only disrespectful, but misinformed.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's the way your comment came across, and this is coming from someone who knows a lot about being an asshole as a primary profession.

Also, I'd like to point out that even before the change listed above, Execute was used in the rotations and guides. It just wasn't used quite as much. Definitely not the same as not using it at all, which is again how the comments were making it sound.

[reakwon]

So back on the MS vs Execute subject. Doing napkin math I come up with numbers like this using my gear my character does 30,835 damage on a base mortal strike for 20 rage and my execute does 15,276 base with a bonus of 45,828 at 40 rage coming out to 61,104. This means that with two stacks of focused rage which costs 30 rage will make my mortal strike hit for 61,670 for a total of 50 rage. Now that makes it seem like FR is a bust compared to execute but the first artifact point is a 15 percent damage buff to MS. Which makes MS hit for 30,835x1.15=35,460.25. Then multiplied by 2 = 70,920.5. Take these numbers and divide them by their rage so 70,920.5/50-1418.41 and 61,104/40=1527.6

So what I am getting is that for every point of rage for MS with 1 point of FR I get 1519.725 with two points of FR I am doing 1418.41 damage and 3 points 1363.855 while with Execute I am doing 1527.6.

I am not a theory crafter but this confuses me. Am I doing something wrong with multiplying FR percentages to MS damage or am I doing it all incorrect?

[Archimtiros]

So back on the MS vs Execute subject. Doing napkin math I come up with numbers like this using my gear my character does 30,835 damage on a base mortal strike for 20 rage and my execute does 15,276 base with a bonus of 45,828 at 40 rage coming out to 61,104. This means that with two stacks of focused rage which costs 30 rage will make my mortal strike hit for 61,670 for a total of 50 rage. Now that makes it seem like FR is a bust compared to execute but the first artifact point is a 15 percent damage buff to MS. Which makes MS hit for 30,835x1.15=35,460.25. Then multiplied by 2 = 70,920.5. Take these numbers and divide them by their rage so 70,920.5/50-1418.41 and 61,104/40=1527.6

So what I am getting is that for every point of rage for MS with two points of FR I am doing 1418.41 damage while with Execute I am doing 1527.6.

I am not a theory crafter but this napkin math confuses me. Am I doing something wrong with multiplying FR percentages to MS damage or am I doing it all incorrect?

Glossing over your math, the important part about Shattered Defenses isn't about rage efficiency so much as burst damage. Yes, Execute may be a bit more rage efficient, but you only have one global with which to make use of that Shattered Defenses debuff. A notable concern with Execute in this case is also that it can rage starve you, which due to the slow swing of autoattacks, leaves you unable to consistently use GCDs, and potentially set back the rotation.

[Xanthan]

And what makes you think we don't do that as well? You think our process is wholly comprised of "sim says this, do this" you're sorely mistaken. To put into perspective, I'm not even working on Arms primarily, so I'm not invested in this particular issue, but the disdain with which you talk about the people going out of their way to do this work for you is not only disrespectful, but misinformed.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's the way your comment came across, and this is coming from someone who knows a lot about being an asshole as a primary profession.

Also, I'd like to point out that even before the change listed above, Execute was used in the rotations and guides. It just wasn't used quite as much. Definitely not the same as not using it at all, which is again how the comments were making it sound.

Oh, there was some disdain in my post. It just wasn't directed at you. I took issue more with comments like this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42060690

It drives me crazy when someone shuts down plenty of perfectly reasonable points, discussion, and basic math with, "You're all wrong because I said so," and has it actually believed no less. It's the opposite of everything discussions like these are for. I do all my own TC since I'm generally skeptical of other peoples' conclusions, so no one is "doing all this work for me," and I don't have a problem with pointing out blind arrogance when I see it.

[Valkaneer]

Everytime you spend rage you have a chance to reset CS & MS. If you first use CS then FS and tactician procs on the FS charge you just potentially wasted a whole proc because the upcoming MS that you are going to hit is also going to fish for tactician proc.

Yes FS proc chance is only 12.675% chance with exploit the weakness, but you are still limited by rage, so you should not spend it like that unless you are about to rage cap or got Battle Cry active.

The only time I can see and would not spending the rage on FR in between CS and MS, is if you have a low amount of rage. What is the % chance that MS will proc Tac? So, if MS Procs Tac you just lost the guaranteed 1 X FR buff and the reduction in CD from AM. IMO low rage is the only argument not to use it. Since to my knowledge there is no PPM on Tac the only way you can lose a proc chance is if you don't have the rage later to use FR when needed or on another skill when you need to.


When you have a Tac proc in a CS window and SD is down, are you going to hit MS first or lose the chance of a Tac proc in favor of a guaranteed 30% crit and 30% damage buff from CS's SD?

[Archimtiros]

Oh, there was some disdain in my post. It just wasn't directed at you. I took issue more with comments like this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42060690

Someone shutting down plenty of perfectly reasonable points, discussion, and basic math with, "You're all wrong because I said so," drives me crazy

I'll agree with that. Sarri has a tendancy to get over excited; he finds something that gives him an extra 10k DPS and immediately wants to share it with the world and talk about how great it's new potential is (happens when you favor a traditionally underdog spec), without completely fact-checking his work. Still, I wouldn't call that arrogance.

Also, I'd like to point out that in the context of that particular discussion, Sarri was right. MS is still worth using over Execute sub 20% with FR, primarily because of it's burst potential. It was the extended idea that you won't use Execute period which was incorrect.