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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    yeah but the state, the media, and people in general seem to care more about the right's violence.
    You'll have to imagine the tiny violin I'm playing for you.

    Which is why you have such silly instances as Trump being asked to denounce David Duke and the KKK by proxy - the KKK killed what 3-4000 people?
    At the same time, the communist party of America supports Clinton - Communism, 90-95 million dead.
    Yeah, and Clinton hasn't been retweeting communists and pushing a communist campaign. Wonder why no one gives a shit about communists supporting Clinton.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurin View Post
    Both sides have idiots in it, but I would argue the left is especially stupid. When young women break out of Islamic "honor" culture, the left are there with islamists to silence them when they tell of their troubles to the media/people. The left should be about the opposite.
    I have no idea where you're getting this.

  3. #503
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Azgraal View Post

    And don't even try to say riding apparel is not the same as religious beliefs, things are as important as we want them to be. That's why we "allow" these religions to cripple our humankind and future.
    Well we have dismantle the religious argument that they - who oppose this ban - bring up as not religious at all. There is no call in Quran and Islamic texts that command women to hide their faces.

    Niqab/burka have been appropriate by Islamists as supposedly being ''Islamic/muslim''. It's a cultural heirloom that has been forcefully attached to Islam.
    Attached by the most intolerent, fanatic muslims.

    And yet we have these morons - some of them in this thread - who want to mainstream what Islamic scholars deny as being Islamic in the first place.
    Idiots!

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Taustins View Post
    Well we have dismantle the religious argument that they - who oppose this ban - bring up as not religious at all. There is no call in Quran and Islamic texts that command women to hide their faces.
    Are you comfortable with governments and courts making such theological decisions?

  5. #505
    Deleted
    Another article about niqab and it's place in our society.
    Ignore the website, consider the author and the message.
    But the quid pro quo is that when everyone else in society is expected to identify themselves, a Muslim woman wearing a niqab should not be exempted.

    It’s time we tackled head on the genuine security concerns and social consequences of face-veiling in modern Britain. It is not only reasonable, but our duty to insist individuals remove the veil when they enter identity-sensitive environments such as banks, airports, courts and schools. Legally speaking, there is no basis for any exception to be made, but the sad fact is exceptions are being made because we have become too spineless to do anything about it.

    Let me make this clear: it is our duty to adopt a policy barring the wearing of niqabs in these public buildings. Here’s my test: where a balaclava, motorcycle helmet or face mask would be deemed inappropriate, so should a niqab. It’s simple really.

    Teachers are already not allowed to hand children over to unidentified adults at the school gates. Students are already expected to show ID cards before entering colleges and universities. In fact, while sitting for exams, students are expected to keep their photo ID visible on their desks at all times.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Are you comfortable with governments and courts making such theological decisions?
    What? It is very well established and known that niqab and burka are not Islamic in any way. Vast majority if Muslims who have studied their faith and history know that to be the case.

    You are twisting the argument.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Taustins View Post
    Another article about niqab and it's place in our society.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What? It is very well established and known that niqab and burka are not Islamic in any way. Vast majority if Muslims who have studied their faith and history know that to be the case.

    You are twisting the argument.
    I'm not twisting anything. As we're discussing laws and government policies, what is "really Islamic" only matters if we're comfortable letting the government make that decision.

  7. #507
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    Aaah, another great victory for freedom! ...Of course, not for the freedom of those who actually wants to wear it for whatever reason, but it's not like they know what's best for them, right? The important thing is this is a great strike at those who expresses their religious belief in a way that we don't like, and that is what freedom is all about! Yessir, we are certainly becoming more enlightened and better as a society by the moment. Some will claim that we are actually trampling on the freedom of others by doing this, but it's not like those commies know the first thing about what freedom is about, right? Freedom is the freedom to do like society demands you should do, and shame on you for thinking otherwise!

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Aaah, another great victory for freedom! ...Of course, not for the freedom of those who actually wants to wear it for whatever reason, but it's not like they know what's best for them, right? The important thing is this is a great strike at those who expresses their religious belief in a way that we don't like, and that is what freedom is all about! Yessir, we are certainly becoming more enlightened and better as a society by the moment. Some will claim that we are actually trampling on the freedom of others by doing this, but it's not like those commies know the first thing about what freedom is about, right? Freedom is the freedom to do like society demands you should do, and shame on you for thinking otherwise!
    Its always someone else who has to surrender their liberty for security.

  9. #509
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm not twisting anything. As we're discussing laws and government policies, what is "really Islamic" only matters if we're comfortable letting the government make that decision.
    I am, since it is can be very easily established that burka and niqab are not Islamic. The discussions about whether they are or are not are usually found in Wahabi and the most extreme fanatical circles.
    We are not talking about subtleties of some obscure, incoherent (most of them are that anyway) hadith here.

    We already do not allow/endorse other actually Islamic doctorines and teaching. I see nothing wrong with this case either.

  10. #510
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You'll have to imagine the tiny violin I'm playing for you.
    Again, Nazis, lets be generous and say 9 million dead - Communism, 90+ million dead.
    The selective care is disturbing - because that leads to the problem.

    Yeah, and Clinton hasn't been retweeting communists and pushing a communist campaign. Wonder why no one gives a shit about communists supporting Clinton.
    Last i checked, neither has trump, David Duke said he supported trump.
    Again, the communist party said 'we support Clinton' in a sane world, she should have been forced to denounce them 20 seconds later.
    But as of yet, she still haven't.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Taustins View Post
    I am, since it is can be very easily established that burka and niqab are not Islamic.
    If you have the government making theological decisions where does that stop?

  12. #512
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its always someone else who has to surrender their liberty for security.
    We always have done so. We are doing that. We will continue to do so.

    Either stand against all kinds of restrictions in our society or not at all.
    I accept that there are permissible things and there are not. Burka and burkini should not be allowed in societies in which facial identification has been, is and hopefully will continue to be the social and ethical norm.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its always someone else who has to surrender their liberty for security.
    And we are SO much better off for it. Because it's not like we should oppose this tradeoff of liberty for security because it someday might happen to us, no sirreh, that'll never happen. It's just the others, and they don't know what's good for them anyhow, so it's not like their opinion matters!

  14. #514
    good job germany , das sieht ganz gut ja

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    we are actually trampling on the freedom of others by doing this
    "Freedom" is a freedom to wear or not to wear anything accordingly to the environment. When you must wear anything because of some frivolous reason, you don't have a freedom, and it should be acted upon.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Last i checked, neither has trump, David Duke said he supported trump.
    Again, the communist party said 'we support Clinton' in a sane world, she should have been forced to denounce them 20 seconds later.
    But as of yet, she still haven't.
    The foundations for Trump's campaign in white nationalism are pretty damn obvious. Why the media and the general public should be more concerned about it than communists endorsing Clinton is obvious to anyone without an agenda to push.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Taustins View Post
    We always have done so. We are doing that. We will continue to do so.

    Either stand against all kinds of restrictions in our society or not at all.
    I accept that there are permissible things and there are not. Burka and burkini should not be allowed in societies in which facial identification has been, is and hopefully will continue to be the social and ethical norm.
    Alternatively, I could exercise moderation and judgement over absolutism, and desire clear and significant threats to life and limb before restricting liberty. A small number of women in a face veil is not a serious threat to security, not enough to justify restricting their liberty.

    The "burkini" doesn't cover the face either.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayn View Post
    Its called freedom of religion which is in fact implemented into country law. I need to say more?
    You clearly don't know what freedom of religion is.

  18. #518
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    If you have the government making theological decisions where does that stop?
    But is already happening. In every single country. We do not allow FGM ( some fanatics will claim that is is Islamic- and some spineless liberals concede even that). We do not allow polygamy.

    We do not allow many things that can be taken as the Gods word.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    The "burkini" doesn't cover the face either.
    I meant niqab. Was thinking about that shit as I was writing.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Taustins View Post
    But is already happening. In every single country. We do not allow FGM ( some fanatics will claim that is is Islamic- and some spineless liberals concede even that). We do not allow polygamy.

    We do not allow many things that can be taken as the Gods word.
    We don't allow FGM because its a serious violation of personal autonomy and/or child abuse. You'll never see me defend laws banning polygamy, as I think they fall under the same category as banning face veils. Just the enforcement of cultural standards under the guise of security.

    The government isn't a religious institution and never should be. All the laws it creates must be in the realm of the secular with no regard given to theological arguments.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    "Freedom" is a freedom to wear or not to wear anything accordingly to the environment. When you must wear anything because of some frivolous reason, you don't have a freedom, and it should be acted upon.
    Of course, everyone knows that freedom to decide your own clothing only applies to temperature choices, all the jews, buddhists, hare khrishnas, muslims, ortodox christians, rappers, hipsters, grandmothers and teens and so on are just confused and refuse to get with the program. Dumb commies! And just like I said, the Muslim women who wear this clearly don't know their own best interest, so we might as well take away their right to make decisions right away. That'll save ever so many steps later, and it'll save the muslim men from having to do so, right?

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