8/28 BiS List Frost + UH with Trinket Section. All sources

[Piz813]

How are there no solid numbers yet? I'm switching to DK and while I do find frost more fun. 30k is too big of a difference for me to ignore from a raiding perspective. When could we expect to know just which will we be better? Or am I missing something? It's weird going from a class which only has 1 dps spec to a class which has 2 :P

play the spec you have the most fun with, trust me. if there is you as frost and a UH guy in your raid, you both will be neck and neck but beat each other on some fights by a bit. Do not fret.

these stupid sims are calculated by a machine. perfect button presses. 0 latencey, not moving or getting any debuffs, etc. Use the trinket section to see what you should gun for first. the rest will sort itself out in 4 weeks when raids open.

I put up plenty of infor on my time as frost on beta doing mythic 5+'s. I was fine. everything was fine.

[futei]

Ive checked the Dungeon and World Bosses for Unholy. Have i missed something? Haste + Crit is for the castigor build (with possible bursting wounds) for dungeons with much AoE i still thought that Haste/Mastery was better Running Ebon Fever and Clawing Shadows?

Or is Haste Crit allways supperior atm?

[-Skye]

play the spec you have the most fun with, trust me. if there is you as frost and a UH guy in your raid, you both will be neck and neck but beat each other on some fights by a bit. Do not fret.

these stupid sims are calculated by a machine. perfect button presses. 0 latencey, not moving or getting any debuffs, etc. Use the trinket section to see what you should gun for first. the rest will sort itself out in 4 weeks when raids open.

I put up plenty of infor on my time as frost on beta doing mythic 5+'s. I was fine. everything was fine.

15% is a lot when you're in a mythic raiding guild and I want to be able to perform at my personal best, that includes playing the superior spec

[Freedom]

15% is a lot when you're in a mythic raiding guild and I want to be able to perform at my personal best, that includes playing the superior spec

Exactly. Just because it's your baby spec, your class doesn't make playing the worse one (if it's 15% worse) any better than a Mage insisting on Arcane over Fire, or vice versa during HFC. The same for a Dragon Soul era Fury warrior stubbornly refusing to play Arms instead, or a Blood DPS DK in ICC. Wouldn't you be annoyed if you kept wiping because your mages refuse to play Fire, and do 10% less DPS, causing enrage wipes? Getting mad at them while playing Frost as a DK would be hypocritical.

Don't want to play the best spec? Then go find somewhere else with a similar mindset, and take the downgrade in content you chose by sticking with your favorite spec. Asking to be taken seriously as a "Mythic raider" and playing a spec so far down in DPS is laughable.

Shit, I'm not chomping at the bit for Mythic, and content with Heroic, but if it's 13% and stays that way, I am switching to UH once my Apocalypse is at the same level or higher than the Twin Blades of the Fallen Prince. If I despised UH, sure I'd stay Frost, but the fact is I don't mind UH. I like it a lot better than live Fury or Arms.

[Deleted]

How are there no solid numbers yet? I'm switching to DK and while I do find frost more fun. 30k is too big of a difference for me to ignore from a raiding perspective. When could we expect to know just which will we be better? Or am I missing something? It's weird going from a class which only has 1 dps spec to a class which has 2 :P

depenfs what difficulty you do, normal hc, play frost if you want, Mythci go unholy if it stays this 10-15% gap between btoh specs, if you want to do Mythic you play best spec escpially if its great difference and even more needed during early progress at which you might run into enrage.

[0verdose]

Guys, unholy will likely be nerfed to the ground even more to bring it more in line with frost. I thought everybody knew this already. It's just going to be like how frost was nerfed early on in WoD

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So both of unholys bis trinks are flat stat trinkets... Basically two chipped soul prizm's on steroids... How boring lol.

[Deleted]

Guys, unholy will likely be nerfed to the ground even more to bring it more in line with frost. I thought everybody knew this already. It's just going to be like how frost was nerfed early on in WoD

- - - Updated - - -

So both of unholys bis trinks are flat stat trinkets... Basically two chipped soul prizm's on steroids... How boring lol.

for preraid, but raid trinkets it arent stat trinkets, and the horn which is good for breath, da and in general close to best trinkets.

[Radaney]

I dislike seeing trinket sims without the rotation. TO THE SOURCE OF THE SPREADSHEET!

[Freedom]

for preraid, but raid trinkets it arent stat trinkets, and the horn which is good for breath, da and in general close to best trinkets.

Unholy doesn't have breath anymore? Or do you mean for Frost, in which case it still makes no sense, because from everything I have seen most people take GA.

[Gemini Soul]

Unholy doesn't have breath anymore? Or do you mean for Frost, in which case it still makes no sense, because from everything I have seen most people take GA.

My biggest problem with BoS is that in order to make it work good you need Runic Attenuation, in order to make RA work good you need Icy Talons, in order to make Icy Talons work at all you need to FS which cost RP and BoS does not give stacks of Icy Talons.

[Dracovian]

How are there no solid numbers yet? I'm switching to DK and while I do find frost more fun. 30k is too big of a difference for me to ignore from a raiding perspective. When could we expect to know just which will we be better? Or am I missing something? It's weird going from a class which only has 1 dps spec to a class which has 2 :P

Unholy is better in every way by 13% or more in some instances. It's the safe choice.

[Piz813]

My biggest problem with BoS is that in order to make it work good you need Runic Attenuation, in order to make RA work good you need Icy Talons, in order to make Icy Talons work at all you need to FS which cost RP and BoS does not give stacks of Icy Talons.

see that's what I find great about frost. so much synergy and there is no "cookie cutter" spec. Like BoS? talent all around it and it will shit on most things. Want a more classic OB and HB play? you can spec that way too and have two choices on how you want to deal with frost Strikes. Think Scythe lo0oks cool? Well it fucking is and it HURTS!

UH players will be a dime a dozen and all run the same talents for the most part. Maybe Epidemic and PP will be differ. The word is SR is better than DA at 110 so they will all gravitate to SR. If you are like me and wanna mess with Unholy Frenzy, you'll be flammed in game and here for sure!

frost has a few different paths. try each and see which fits you better. Cant go wrong IMO Unless you build a BoS build and fuck upand press it twice... yeah that happened....
#showtooltip Breath of Sindragosa
/cast !Breath of Sindragosa
/cast Blood Fury

[Deleted]

Goddamn it, I had thought that the Darkmoon card was going to suck this time around, but if it isn't... I may want to level my warr week 1 for profs. Get those CDs rolling.

Also goddamnit those stat weights. If they are right, UH looks like it will scale better than Frost... again. And I am not sure why crit is #1 for UH and haste is #1 for frost on that spreadsheet.

But hey, at least the difference between trinkets is no longer absolutely monstrous.

Thanks for the link.

Crit>Haste for Unholy is because of Castigator being the go to and because we already get a ridiculous amount of haste from other sources(SR for instance), at times when everything goes off at the same time(SR/trinkets/BL/etc) we get awfully close to haste capping already without much haste gear(as in 0.75s gcd).

For frost I think it has to do with Frozen Pulse talent doing stupid dmg atm. Currently it can do upwards of 15% of your dmg passively. Also, it is only in raiding gear that Haste>Crit, in pre raid gear crit is still better, so I am assuming it also has something to do with Crit being devalued after a certain point.

[Gemini Soul]

Crit>Haste for Unholy is because of Castigator being the go to and because we already get a ridiculous amount of haste from other sources(SR for instance), at times when everything goes off at the same time(SR/trinkets/BL/etc) we get awfully close to haste capping already without much haste gear(as in 0.75s gcd).

For frost I think it has to do with Frozen Pulse talent doing stupid dmg atm. Currently it can do upwards of 15% of your dmg passively.

Would not be surprised if they nerf Frozen Pulse and buff Epidemic at the same time.

[Dracovian]

For frost I think it has to do with Frozen Pulse talent doing stupid dmg atm. Currently it can do upwards of 15% of your dmg passively.

That does not mean it's stupid damage. The reason it's doing such a high percentage of the total damage is because at lower gear levels Frost spends more time without resources which means more FP uptime.

[Freedom]

That does not mean it's stupid damage. The reason it's doing such a high percentage of the total damage is because at lower gear levels Frost spends more time without resources which means more FP uptime.

Then wouldn't that mean that in raid gear FP damage would go down because of more resources, devaluing haste? Haste makes your runes come back faster, so at a certain point FP proc frequency per minute would go DOWN, not up, since your runes are up more often.

This may be exactly what you said, it's late, not thinking right.

[Baddok21]

My biggest problem with BoS is that in order to make it work good you need Runic Attenuation, in order to make RA work good you need Icy Talons, in order to make Icy Talons work at all you need to FS which cost RP and BoS does not give stacks of Icy Talons.

you dont need RA for a 1 min BoS (Horn of Winter + ME + Hungering is more than enough) with the legendary a 1 min 25sec BoS is readily achievable.

that and BoS is currently tuned for a 2 target cleave as its a dmg loss on pure single target (hopefully this changes) and all 2+ Target cleave instantly means Frost Scythe or at the very least gathering storm.

not to mention no fight would allow for BoS extension much past 1min 30 seconds anyways outside that standard Patchwerk fight

[Dracovian]

Then wouldn't that mean that in raid gear FP damage would go down because of more resources, devaluing haste? Haste makes your runes come back faster, so at a certain point FP proc frequency per minute would go DOWN, not up, since your runes are up more often.

This may be exactly what you said, it's late, not thinking right.

You got the general idea of what I said right. I don't think it would devalue Haste because it does proc off auto-attacks which increase with Haste but it would certainly mean the % of total damage from FP will go down as we get better gear.

[Gathed]

You got the general idea of what I said right. I don't think it would devalue Haste because it does proc off auto-attacks which increase with Haste but it would certainly mean the % of total damage from FP will go down as we get better gear.

There's no reason you just can't forgo taking haste, and ignore the tier bonus', you'd definitely reach the fsc threshold a lot faster. Granted i can't imagine such a build being competitive in raids, but would probably work in mythic+

[Acidbaron]

Can anyone explain me where the math of this 15% difference comes from? I am aware that frost is in a weaker position but 15% is beyond the range blizzard generally allows, is this obtained by merely adding up the highest stat pieces and taking the difference?


As for the person asking why there are no real values yet, it appears that for frost and to lesser extend unholy that stat values change quite a bit with every item you obtain also it matters what you are talented into, however we should be able to get a more clear picture once we have access to set bonuses and/or legendary items. As of now if you aren't like some of us and prefer to personally use SimC, which i recommend you learn if you raid mythic follow the rule of highest ilevel as with WoD, your strength has generally double the value of any secondary.

edit: seems strength this time is valued less but is still a good chunk higher then your secondaries so same principle applies.