No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Mafic]

Wacraft RTS nostalgia: The premise of interacting with figures of WoW, plus Garrisons were advertised as "building an army to Fight the Iron horde". I had been away from WoW since the first patch of Cata, and this premise made me buy Pandaria at 5.3, full price, just to "prepare for WoD.

I assume other Warcraft nerds like me came back for similar reasons.

It was also the expansion after Panda land which drew in a lot of players to return. Given WoD's massive spike at launch they hype was very high and alpha streaming of WoD played a big part as well.

[Dhrizzle]

Browsing over this forum...a little at a time, over many, many days, I notice one thing that stands out more than anything. Anyone else notice it is pretty much the same 20-30 people arguing back and forth with the few random people popping in to give their opinion on the matter.

I think 30 people might be pushing it a bit, almost 20% of the 8000+ posts in this thread come from just 3 people.

[clevin]

I stated NOTHING as fact, I stated MY OPINION...which I do NOT NEED logic or facts to support and opinion. I based my opinion on how I feel about the game. See, when someone here posts their opinion, which I did. We are told we are wrong and need proof as to why we feel a certain way.

I just clarified that, actually. You're right, you don't need to support your opinion.. UNLESS you're arguing that the rest of us should play your way and that the game is better for it. THEN you DO need something to back it up or you're just one person spouting off "I want it this way because I want it this way" which is fine... but meaningless.

The thing is, if you just like ground travel better you can do that. It's when you argue that other people should play your way that you go outside of just opinion. If you're unwilling to give arugments as to why we should all play your way or to support your assertion then you're done here, really. I mean, there's nothing else to say to that - discussion is only possible when we move outside the naive "My opinion is my opinion" paradigm.

[4dahorde]

I just clarified that, actually. You're right, you don't need to support your opinion.. UNLESS you're arguing that the rest of us should play your way and that the game is better for it. THEN you DO need something to back it up or you're just one person spouting off "I want it this way because I want it this way" which is fine... but meaningless.

The thing is, if you just like ground travel better you can do that. It's when you argue that other people should play your way that you go outside of just opinion.

I never said anything like the sort, you have assumed meaning in my typed words. I never said you were wrong, and never said I was right, I stated my opinion, and you stated yours. I NEVER said you should play the game as I do, however, Blizzard HAS said, that if you want to play THEIR game, this is the way you do it. Like it or not, currently that is what you have, and if the way you get around matters that much, then don't play it man. Telling people their opinion is wrong is not the most positive way to get people to understand where you are coming from. I don't care either way, if I have no flying, then I will run on the gorund, if flying is enabled (which I WILL work towards) then I will use that...but to say you won't play a game that has MUCH MUICH more to offer then flying around, I will never understand.

[Dhrizzle]

I do not care about my popularity. As you gain wisdom, and as you become older you will realize "popularity" is meaningless and futile as it often impedes you from looking for truth. Instead of accepting spoon fed responses from Blizzard open your mind to think outside of the script handed to you by others and re-formulate a script based on your own ideas.

I find it strange you claim that attitude when so many of your posts reference Preach and his opinions.

Flying is already in WoW's previous expansions. WoW does not have flying in Legion currently, and it will take a lot of time to put in placet just like what happened with WoD. Furthermore, if all they have to do is add invisible walls then they would have done that already, but they haven't. Why? Think about it and then come back to me with a serious answer.

Flying is a major convenience tool and also a source of fun for many. In terms of costs, I would argue over the long run it is minimal to maintain, but it is the upfront opportunity cost (eg testing through alpha/beta) that Blizzard is clearly, clearly shying away from all of sudden.

What exactly do you think Blizz will have to do to get flight to work in the Broken Isles, and why do you think it's cheaper to test it at a later date rather than when the Isles are being constructed?

[Cthulhu 2020]

I *quoted* what I was referring to. Learn to read.

And your first sentence claimed that WoD was just following the normal curve. It did NOT.

Look at the sub curve, then draw a line from the end of MoP to the bottom of the WoD spike. Extremely consistent with the last 4 years.

WoD retained none of the people it drew back in, and if it had never drawn them back in in the first place, the rate of sub loss would have been the exact same as it always had been.

[clevin]

I NEVER said you should play the game as I do,

Yes you did: "Flying is fine in content when it is not current, current content, it needs to go...." Right there you're expressing an opinion about what's best for the game, that in current content flight should be gone. For everyone. Which forces those of us who would prefer to fly to play as you do. If you don't understand this, go read a logic textbook.

however, Blizzard HAS said, that if you want to play THEIR game, this is the way you do it. Like it or not, currently that is what you have, and if the way you get around matters that much, then don't play it man. Telling people their opinion is wrong is not the most positive way to get people to understand where you are coming from. I don't care either way, if I have no flying, then I will run on the gorund, if flying is enabled (which I WILL work towards) then I will use that...but to say you won't play a game that has MUCH MUICH more to offer then flying around, I will never understand.

For someone so excited about your words being misinterpreted, this is just funny. Did I say I wouldn't play? No. What you fail to understand is that it's perfectly possible to like a product overall and dislike particular things about that product.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I do not care about my popularity. As you gain wisdom, and as you become older you will realize "popularity" is meaningless and futile as it often impedes you from looking for truth. Instead of accepting spoon fed responses from Blizzard open your mind to think outside of the script handed to you by others and re-formulate a script based on your own ideas.

Flying is already in WoW's previous expansions. WoW does not have flying in Legion currently, and it will take a lot of time to put in placet just like what happened with WoD. Furthermore, if all they have to do is add invisible walls then they would have done that already, but they haven't. Why? Think about it and then come back to me with a serious answer.

Flying is a major convenience tool and also a source of fun for many. In terms of costs, I would argue over the long run it is minimal to maintain, but it is the upfront opportunity cost (eg testing through alpha/beta) that Blizzard is clearly, clearly shying away from all of sudden.

Yes, people who dreamed up the Illuminati. People who believe 9/11 was an inside job feel themselves enlightened. Everyone who has come up with a conspiracy theory and felt they media was lying to think they're being independent thinkers and are the only ones who can "see the truth".

"If they could implement flying easily, they would have."

So you really think that enabling flying in a zone is more difficult than ensuring there's invisible walls in the sky box? Like, seriously, you actually believe this? You can't fathom that it was a design decision to not include it, and really think that it takes over a year to make it possible for people to fly?

I have the taste of bait in my mouth now...

[4dahorde]

Yes you did: "Flying is fine in content when it is not current, current content, it needs to go...." Right there you're expressing an opinion about what's best for the game, that in current content flight should be gone. For everyone. Which forces those of us who would prefer to fly to play as you do. If you don't understand this, go read a logic textbook.




For someone so excited about your words being misinterpreted, this is just funny. Did I say I wouldn't play? No. What you fail to understand is that it's perfectly possible to like a product overall and dislike particular things about that product.

That first quote is MY OPINION..not fact and not saying you should play the same way I do...I do feel that way, does not mean I am telling you that you have to play it my way, as I stated I don't care either way.

The second quote...I am sorry, I should have been more clear, SOME people have stated this, and I should not have pointed it to you as if you had directly said that.

and yes...I have NEVER in my life met ANYONE who enjoyes absolutely every detail of a game, or participates in every aspect. So sure, I understand that.

[clevin]

That first quote is MY OPINION..not fact and not saying you should play the same way I do...I do feel that way, does not mean I am telling you that you have to play it my way, as I stated I don't care either way.

Yeah, done here as you either don't realize that your opinion results in everyone having to play your way or you're unwilling to admit that. That's the entire source of conflict here - people who don't want flight in the game at all force, if they get their way (and they are), the rest of us to forgo flight. NOTE that the reverse is not strictly true. You can always choose NOT to fly after all, even if flight is in the game... if flight is not in the game I can't choose to fly.

Is this a gamekiller for me? No. Do I think they should have allowed flight to be completely by a long quest chain that explained why we couldn't fly and had us doing things to over come those things? Sure. And I think that chain should be completable in 7.0 or at the start of 7.1.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yeah, done here as you either don't realize that your opinion results in everyone having to play your way or you're unwilling to admit that. That's the entire source of conflict here - people who don't want flight in the game at all force, if they get their way (and they are), the rest of us to forgo flight. NOTE that the reverse is not strictly true. You can always choose NOT to fly after all, even if flight is in the game... if flight is not in the game I can't choose to fly.

Is this a gamekiller for me? No. Do I think they should have allowed flight to be completely by a long quest chain that explained why we couldn't fly and had us doing things to over come those things? Sure. And I think that chain should be completable in 7.0 or at the start of 7.1.

And yet flying being in the game affects a lot of design decisions, and choosing not to isn't that simple. It becomes a very core part of the design philosophy, and the world becomes designed around with everyone having flight in mind. Try to do Cata zones without flight, or Townlong/Dread Wastes.

[Sluvs]

Claiming that the subs dropped because of flying is, at the very least, dishonest. Unless of course you can produce some sort of proof for those claims.

[4dahorde]

Yeah, done here as you either don't realize that your opinion results in everyone having to play your way or you're unwilling to admit that. That's the entire source of conflict here - people who don't want flight in the game at all force, if they get their way (and they are), the rest of us to forgo flight. NOTE that the reverse is not strictly true. You can always choose NOT to fly after all, even if flight is in the game... if flight is not in the game I can't choose to fly.

Is this a gamekiller for me? No. Do I think they should have allowed flight to be completely by a long quest chain that explained why we couldn't fly and had us doing things to over come those things? Sure. And I think that chain should be completable in 7.0 or at the start of 7.1.

This reasoning always gets me as well. Basically saying "It's not fair that you get your way, and I don't have a choice". Isn't that how LOTS of things are in game and in life? Yes, since I do not care how I get around, I WILL have a choice...but as of now...I don't. I HAVE to use my ground mount, as do you...and when flying IS put into the game, we BOTH have a choice. The difference is, and only is what are prefrence is.

I seriously doubt (incoming opinnion fyi) there are seriously any measurable number of people who would choose to be on the ground if supplied with the choice between flying and not. So I do not see your reasoning. There are likely LESS people who would do this then there is people who want flying. So the arguement seems conflicted.

I do not see this as a reasonable arguement to flying...we BOTH have a choice at the exact same time....we BOTH have NO choice at the eaxct same time. So seriously man, and I am serious, why is this a focal point to your arguement? I truely want to know, while you won't change my mind, I am intertested in what you have to say. Honestly, you are probably the one person I have had a discussion on this subject that isn't just throwing knives back and forth, so I can atleast listen to you.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah, done here as you either don't realize that your opinion results in everyone having to play your way or you're unwilling to admit that. That's the entire source of conflict here - people who don't want flight in the game at all force, if they get their way (and they are), the rest of us to forgo flight. NOTE that the reverse is not strictly true. You can always choose NOT to fly after all, even if flight is in the game... if flight is not in the game I can't choose to fly.

Is this a gamekiller for me? No. Do I think they should have allowed flight to be completely by a long quest chain that explained why we couldn't fly and had us doing things to over come those things? Sure. And I think that chain should be completable in 7.0 or at the start of 7.1.

If flying is allowed in the game most players will use it as the quickest/easiest/most convenient way of completing content. Assuming Blizzard don't want people to blast through all the content and complain about having nothing to do, they will have to stretch it in other ways to take flying I to account. That means the "choice" of not flying could massively gimp your progression in both trade-skills and artefact power through world quests.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I just wonder how many people like FLYING and how many like the convenience it offers. Like does anyone find the actual act of flying enjoyable? Or is it just because they want things to be easier/more convenient? For instance, would they be okay with 60% speed flying being enabled, like in BC? 5k gold was pretty hard to come by immediately on BC dropping, and a lot of people didn't have epic flight until months or even a full year+ after the expansion dropped.

[4dahorde]

I just wonder how many people like FLYING and how many like the convenience it offers. Like does anyone find the actual act of flying enjoyable? Or is it just because they want things to be easier/more convenient? For instance, would they be okay with 60% speed flying being enabled, like in BC? 5k gold was pretty hard to come by immediately on BC dropping, and a lot of people didn't have epic flight until months or even a full year+ after the expansion dropped.

Maybe you are on to something here...maybe give people their flying, but at a slower speed then ground speed, like the 60% back in the day, and they have to earn the faster flying....would people still be arguing for flying then, or would they then switch to arguing the speed? I would bet people want it for the speed/convenience however, so that probably wouldn't make people happy.

[SirCowdog]

If flying is allowed in the game most players will use it as the quickest/easiest/most convenient way of completing content. Assuming Blizzard don't want people to blast through all the content and complain about having nothing to do, they will have to stretch it in other ways to take flying I to account. That means the "choice" of not flying could massively gimp your progression in both trade-skills and artefact power through world quests.

Only if flying and ground mounts remain in their current state of disparate utility, and only in areas where flying is available. We've been over this ad nausem.

It seems pretty clear to me that ground mounts should have their utility increased, and flying have some of it's universal movement toned down or altered. Adding some real flight mechanics would be a first start. Some real acceleration control, or maybe pitch and yaw. Or something else to make it less of a perfect utilitarian VTOL/Heli, and more of a travel tool.

There are other ways to address the issue than simply nuking one option out of existence. And not all of them require a complete overhaul of the open world.

- - - Updated - - -

I just wonder how many people like FLYING and how many like the convenience it offers. Like does anyone find the actual act of flying enjoyable? Or is it just because they want things to be easier/more convenient? For instance, would they be okay with 60% speed flying being enabled, like in BC? 5k gold was pretty hard to come by immediately on BC dropping, and a lot of people didn't have epic flight until months or even a full year+ after the expansion dropped.

I wonder how many people like high iLVL, and how many people like the convenience it offers. Like, does anyone find the actual act of using their class enjoyable? Or is it just because they want things to be easier/more convenient? For instance, would they be okay with 60% less DPS being enabled? High-end gear was pretty hard to come by immediately on BC dropping, and a lot of people didn't have epic gear until months or even a full year after the expansion dropped.

The point I'm trying to make here by copying your post is that people need to stop trying to come up with more ways to use flight as a scapegoat.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you are on to something here...maybe give people their flying, but at a slower speed then ground speed, like the 60% back in the day, and they have to earn the faster flying....would people still be arguing for flying then, or would they then switch to arguing the speed? I would bet people want it for the speed/convenience however, so that probably wouldn't make people happy.

A few pages back. I'll just quote myself:

I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if flight also use a power-curve of progression and utility. I've suggested a few times that I thought maybe flight should start out weak, like only being a leap or gliding at slow speeds, then slowly improve as the expansion progressed, unlocking more speed and utility through the completion of various achievements. Tie it to the story progress as well, to give it context.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I wonder how many people like high iLVL, and how many people like the convenience it offers. Like, does anyone find the actual act of using their class enjoyable? Or is it just because they want things to be easier/more convenient? For instance, would they be okay with 60% less DPS being enabled? High-end gear was pretty hard to come by immediately on BC dropping, and a lot of people didn't have epic gear until months or even a full year after the expansion dropped.

The point I'm trying to make here by copying your post is that people need to stop trying to come up with more ways to use flight as a scapegoat.

I'm genuinely curious, since a lot of the people who would often claim that they just looooooooooooooooooooove flying and that we're being meaniepantsheads by wanting the expansion to be built from the ground, love it because they apparently love the act of flying...

Or because they like that it is simply more convenient and faster. What if you could run at 600% speed on a mount, and flying remained at 280/310? Would we start seeing these same people use the ground instead of flight, since even accounting for taking roundabout paths, it would be faster?

[MoanaLisa]

Or because they like that it is simply more convenient and faster. What if you could run at 600% speed on a mount, and flying remained at 280/310? Would we start seeing these same people use the ground instead of flight, since even accounting for taking roundabout paths, it would be faster?

Probably but travel would be a nightmare to do at that speed on the ground. Entertaining for a while yes but the novelty of whizzing by everything in a blur would get old rather quickly.

@clevin: Regarding Warlords precipitous drop in subscriptions before 6.1. While agreeing with you that it wasn't normal, a view that doesn't get aired enough is that somewhere between four and five million people who had already quit before came back so at least for that group they had no qualms about leaving again. Lack of anything to do that wasn't raiding was likely the main reason for that or it could be that people don't have much interest in paying $80 dollars to play for any longer than sixty days. As old as the game is, it's not really attracting new players to any great degree so those that come back are less likely predisposed to stick around for any longer than necessary. Blizzard wins on box sales and I would greatly recommend that people let go of the idea that people should play for months and months. It's fine if they do but it's also OK if they don't. I'm sure Blizzard would prefer they do but the company isn't teetering on the brink of anything bad should it not work out. It seems pretty clear to me that if Legion goes as they are intimating it will that's a direct response to the problems of Warlords. Which is also good. Personally, I'm not sure any longer that playing the same game for months at a time, especially one that costs you every month you play, is really the way video games are generally played in 2016. I'm watching retention rates for a lot of games pretty closely and most games don't have a lot of sticky players. Just my thoughts on all of this.

[D3athsting]

Or because they like that it is simply more convenient and faster. What if you could run at 600% speed on a mount, and flying remained at 280/310? Would we start seeing these same people use the ground instead of flight, since even accounting for taking roundabout paths, it would be faster?

That would make wow become a fantasy racing game like wipeout