Momentum vs Nemesis

[Lucrece]

They never implemented a version of the talent trees that was purely about personal preferences. There are some degrees to that and sometimes talents are so close that it end sup being preference but more often than not talents are either balanced after difficulty to manage/risk-reward or situational application (AoE vs ST for instance).

As long as fel eruption and Nemesis remain "use this on CD" buttons they have no right to outperform or even tie with momentum. Momentum is not only significantly more difficult to manage (not in the sense of being really really difficult, talking by comparison) but also brings significant risks with it tied to that management. As long as you don't press nemesis on a lowly add without the boss sharing its creature type you can't really do anything wrong with it.

If they were all exactly of the same strength momentum wouldn't be a real option, since it bears risk but no advantage, thus making it effectively wors ethan the other two.

The hcoice of that tier lies within trading risk for potential or even utility if the stun of fel eruption applies. Chosing talents rarely ever was about picking what you like and your favorite being your choice without impacting your ouput. And for those who are likely to make mistakes in the heat of battle it is a choice even when output is considered. Those who can play their game perfectly and can beta the risk will ofcourse have momentum be a clear winner for ouput as they can relatively safely reap its rewards. Talents like that have existed the last expansion, too, and they haven't changed their philosophy on them, so its really nothing new.

There's a problem with that philosophy, and it's the simply fact that you may as well erase the other two talents out of existence because if you make a talent flat out better, people expect you to learn to play that talent and USE it, instead of using the training wheel talents.

You might as well never bother making talent rows when there's only one real option you're expected to take.

[Raikh]

There's a problem with that philosophy, and it's the simply fact that you may as well erase the other two talents out of existence because if you make a talent flat out better, people expect you to learn to play that talent and USE it, instead of using the training wheel talents.

You might as well never bother making talent rows when there's only one real option you're expected to take.

Its a problem with the community, not the philosophy. You can disagree with that philosophy but that doesn't make the philosophy problematic in general.

Also the talent have the right to coexist, just not for the reason you want them to. Fel Eruption offers a stun potentially powerful for PvP, open world and maybe even some niche situations elsewhere when you need a stun direly.
Nemesis is your option if you can't play momentum well, we get a boss like butcher where momentum is extremely dangerous or has forcibly a lower uptime or boss like gorefiend with an extended increased damage window where we can get nemesis in but can't achieve 100% momentum uptime.

The tier both applies to situational use and risk-reward, so its pretty fine that way. Yes, momentum will be the best option in general for dungeons and raiding, but there is nothing wrong with that, be it for the class or the game as a whole but a problem with your expectation.

[Schizoide]

As long as fel eruption and Nemesis remain "use this on CD" buttons they have no right to outperform or even tie with momentum. Momentum is not only significantly more difficult to manage (not in the sense of being really really difficult, talking by comparison) but also brings significant risks with it tied to that management. As long as you don't press nemesis on a lowly add without the boss sharing its creature type you can't really do anything wrong with it.

Completely agree. And Momentum really isn't the problem, because you have to use Fel Rush every 10s even without Momentum. Many people just use it as shorthand for "forced to rotationally reposition", and that confuses the conversation.

A playstyle that didn't rotationally reposition should definitely underperform it. But not by 20%.

[Lucrece]

Its a problem with the community, not the philosophy. You can disagree with that philosophy but that doesn't make the philosophy problematic in general.

Also the talent have the right to coexist, just not for the reason you want them to. Fel Eruption offers a stun potentially powerful for PvP, open world and maybe even some niche situations elsewhere when you need a stun direly.
Nemesis is your option if you can't play momentum well, we get a boss like butcher where momentum is extremely dangerous or has forcibly a lower uptime or boss like gorefiend with an extended increased damage window where we can get nemesis in but can't achieve 100% momentum uptime.

The tier both applies to situational use and risk-reward, so its pretty fine that way. Yes, momentum will be the best option in general for dungeons and raiding, but there is nothing wrong with that, be it for the class or the game as a whole but a problem with your expectation.

Community behavior affects design paradigms. They have to. Otherwise there's nothing stopping us from saying that demonhunters should do considerably less DPS than a feral druid or balance druids should do X% amount less DPS than shadow priests because some specs are harder than others.

We know it's not "fine". When something is inferior, say survival hunters in WoD, they simply don't get used. People don't tell you "well, you can play survival while you suck, and we'll wait for you to get better until you play the optimal spec". It's more like "We don't want you if you can't play what's deemed optimal".

So talents must absolutely be designed to be closely competitive unless they occupy a different niche (like the warlock talent tier for aoe, where you choose burst, sustained, or cleave).

That isn't the case at all right now. You have one build path that excels at EVERYTHING, so the other talents might as well be dead talents.

[Raikh]

Community behavior affects design paradigms. They have to. Otherwise there's nothing stopping us from saying that demonhunters should do considerably less DPS than a feral druid or balance druids should do X% amount less DPS than shadow priests because some specs are harder than others.

We know it's not "fine". When something is inferior, say survival hunters in WoD, they simply don't get used. People don't tell you "well, you can play survival while you suck, and we'll wait for you to get better until you play the optimal spec". It's more like "We don't want you if you can't play what's deemed optimal".

So talents must absolutely be designed to be closely competitive unless they occupy a different niche (like the warlock talent tier for aoe, where you choose burst, sustained, or cleave).

That isn't the case at all right now. You have one build path that excels at EVERYTHING, so the other talents might as well be dead talents.

You can't compare different specs or even classes with each other in terms of difficulty, they play too differently and have different strengths and weaknesses. Talents are by comparison only very slight changes ij your playstyle if at all.

Ofcourse community behavior is affecting design, thats why we have talent sof different complexity. Some people liked more complex gameplay, some like it more easy and straightforward and to justify that complexity there is an additional reward for your work.
The herd mentality problem isn't solved by closing gaps, it will always be there. Even if momentum would only be 1% better, they would still expect you to choose it and unless some super popular community voice calls out its completely irrelevant which one you choose nobody will care how big the difference is, because the best is the best and designing different talents, which even incorporate different playstyles, is pretty much impossible.
The community problem i spoke of is not a trend game design can adjust to properly, it always was and always will be there.

Blizz already did pretty major steps towards easening the pain of that issue but there is simply a point where it will be damaging the game drastically to cater to herd mentality.

For the rest, you're repeating yourself. I can't even tell if you read more than the first sentence of my post or not. You don't have any concrete arguments for your opinion nor do you have any against mine. I told you the niches Nemesis and fel eruption have, but you disregard that entirely. You only see your part and you only see number some people got out of stuff. Even if you were right you don't help your case at all and you won't convince anyone of your opinion like that. This is not a discussion but a waste of time.

[Lucrece]

You can't compare different specs or even classes with each other in terms of difficulty, they play too differently and have different strengths and weaknesses. Talents are by comparison only very slight changes ij your playstyle if at all.

Ofcourse community behavior is affecting design, thats why we have talent sof different complexity. Some people liked more complex gameplay, some like it more easy and straightforward and to justify that complexity there is an additional reward for your work.
The herd mentality problem isn't solved by closing gaps, it will always be there. Even if momentum would only be 1% better, they would still expect you to choose it and unless some super popular community voice calls out its completely irrelevant which one you choose nobody will care how big the difference is, because the best is the best and designing different talents, which even incorporate different playstyles, is pretty much impossible.
The community problem i spoke of is not a trend game design can adjust to properly, it always was and always will be there.

Blizz already did pretty major steps towards easening the pain of that issue but there is simply a point where it will be damaging the game drastically to cater to herd mentality.

For the rest, you're repeating yourself. I can't even tell if you read more than the first sentence of my post or not. You don't have any concrete arguments for your opinion nor do you have any against mine. I told you the niches Nemesis and fel eruption have, but you disregard that entirely. You only see your part and you only see number some people got out of stuff. Even if you were right you don't help your case at all and you won't convince anyone of your opinion like that. This is not a discussion but a waste of time.

Not really. Race selection is a difference of around 1-2%, yet people aren't being told to reroll races.

And specs can most certainly be compared on difficulty, don't bullshit me here. The complexity of a feral druid and an enhancement shaman is night and day. Demonhunter compared to a frost dk is night and day.

Difficulty is not unquantifiable. A demo warlock is harder than a frost mage, there simply is no arguing that. It's as simple as looking what needs to be tracked, and the many points of failure and costs it pays to judge from.

And quite simply, feral druid are the hardest spec in the game by far, followed by shadow priest with surrender to madness talent (you fall out of void form with that talent by mismanaging your insanity = you die and can't be battle rezzed).

So, yeah, if we're going to argue that ease justifies DPS difference, then you open the door for different classes and specs having different DPS payouts based on their difficulty.

[Cronovey]

Mastery won't get better with Fblade being chaos (it sucks because it scales like dogshit compared to versa) and every talent in that row gives you an extra button to push. Flblade isn't special in that regard.


It also doesn't affect momentum play much given you should never be far enough away to get the mini-charge.

I never said it would make mastery great; just that it would make it better. If it was actually Chaos damage, this would be a fact because it would also scale the damage of your Felblade. And yes, they all add an extra button. However, Throw Glaive is basically just spammed on cooldown right now as long as you have your Momentum buff up, while Felblade would be used much more tactically. There are going to be times where you end up out of range of bosses (whether because of personal mistake, tank movement, or just bad hitboxes like Mannoroth) where using this properly would prevent you from losing uptime on a boss, but alas this is unlikely to be changed less than 24 hours from release.

[The Archmage]

I never said it would make mastery great; just that it would make it better. If it was actually Chaos damage, this would be a fact because it would also scale the damage of your Felblade. And yes, they all add an extra button. However, Throw Glaive is basically just spammed on cooldown right now as long as you have your Momentum buff up, while Felblade would be used much more tactically. There are going to be times where you end up out of range of bosses (whether because of personal mistake, tank movement, or just bad hitboxes like Mannoroth) where using this properly would prevent you from losing uptime on a boss, but alas this is unlikely to be changed less than 24 hours from release.

I too am a really BIG fan of Felblade. It gives the only proc mechanic the spec has, aswell as a new and interesting way to close a gap. Let's not forget that movement is NEVER a bad thing: swapping to a priority target, correct a misplaced Fel Rush/VR, get quickly back on the target after avoiding a cleave, zone, aura, whatever.

I definetly prefer an active ability over a DoT to track (that is something that i see more appropriate to a caster class) or a simple damage increase, and i am said it turned out to be the worst talent of the bunch dpswise.

[Schizoide]

You don't need to track the Bloodlet DoT, it stacks on itself with ignite-style mechanics. Just use Throw Glaive when it's up and you won't waste any of it.

I totally agree that Felblade is fun. It needs to hit harder and cleave.

[rhackin]

Nem uses dblades, last I saw.

Prep's appeal for momo is that it allows you to have more momo uptime.

can you stop trying to make the term 'momo' a thing? it makes no sense.

[the boar]

can you stop trying to make the term 'momo' a thing? it makes no sense.

nope. sorry. momo is the official term we're using for momentum.

prep+momo is the way i plan on rolling.

[Not Againnn]

nope. sorry. momo is the official term we're using for momentum.

prep+momo is the way i plan on rolling.

momontum?

no its momentum
stop. it sounds so bad. lol

[Cronovey]

If we want to coin a ridiculous term for it, I propose Mentos instead of momo. Momo sounds absolutely retarded.

[Vanyali]

If we want to coin a ridiculous term for it, I propose Mentos instead of momo. Momo sounds absolutely retarded.

It does, but it's less stupid than mom and mome is too close to meme

[Schizoide]

Momen!

(Imagine I embedded dancingoiledmen.jpg here.)

[Deleted]

I just looked at cooldowns of vengeful retreat and fel rush, I can keep momentum uptime 100%! This is actually crazy.

Vengeful retreat cd 8,2s, I can use VR and wait 4sec then use fel rush and wait another 4sec, now VR is again off cooldown. Momentum is infinite.

Is there any reason to ever take Nemesis?

[Schizoide]

I suppose that depends how competent you are at intelligently using your cooldowns. I mained a frost DK for a very long time; its main cooldown had a 60s cooldown and 20s duration for a 33% uptime, much less than Nemesis at 50%. Even though it was a very short cooldown and potentially very high uptime, I rarely used it on trash or when leveling/soloing single pulls, preferring to save it for when I needed it. In practice, this was when my group/raid overpulled trash and of course on bosses.

Nemesis is that same thing, but with double the cooldown and much higher uptime. If I use Nemesis on this trash pull, will it be up in time for the boss? How long does it take to get there from here? Is 2 minutes enough? You get the idea, I would realistically find myself getting much less than its maximum potential uptime on everything but bosses.

Momentum, on the other hand, will always be up, because Havoc must use Fel Rush rotationally. Big difference there.

[Deleted]

I suppose that depends how competent you are at intelligently using your cooldowns. I mained a frost DK for a very long time; its main cooldown had a 60s cooldown and 20s duration for a 33% uptime, much less than Nemesis at 50%. Even though it was a very short cooldown and potentially very high uptime, I rarely used it on trash or when leveling/soloing single pulls, preferring to save it for when I needed it. In practice, this was when my group/raid overpulled trash and of course on bosses.

Nemesis is that same thing, but with double the cooldown and much higher uptime. If I use Nemesis on this trash pull, will it be up in time for the boss? How long does it take to get there from here? Is 2 minutes enough? You get the idea, I would realistically find myself getting much less than its maximum potential uptime on everything but bosses.

Momentum, on the other hand, will always be up, because Havoc must use Fel Rush rotationally. Big difference there.

I editted my post, because I realized i can keep momentum forever. They have same dmg boost, so whats the point of nemesis at all?

[Akachan]

How do you get a 8.2 second cooldown on vengeful retreat when its default cooldown is 25 seconds (15 with prepared)?

[Hexxidecimal]

momontum?

no its momentum
stop. it sounds so bad. lol

Momo does what momo wants, momo gives no fucks about your haterade party.....beooooootch.

Seriously though I call it Momo too mainly because I get same reaction you gave from my guildies. Eventually they will too call it Momo and hate ever minute of it but will be unable to help themselves.