sheet music or learn by hearing a song?

[justflayin]

It's great to be able to do both I find.

[May90]

That's not true.
Anything can be readable and as such writeable, like for example frank zappa's IMPOSSIBLE drum beats.

The overwhelming majority of material in jazz now is written.
Especially in jazz because of the structure "theme-solo-theme", the theme is recurring.
Apart from the fact that since the early days of jazz, most the jazz we hear now comes from highly academic orientated schools, jazz itself requires a lot of writing.

There is no point writing down, say, Pat Metheny's guitar solo, because it is not something one would replay in the future: this is pure improvisation, this is something he made up on the fly, as he played, and next time, playing the same song, he will play a different solo.

You can write down some core constructs, but there is little point writing the whole song as it's played, because live performance in jazz is very chaotic. Miles Davis, you bet, didn't rely on written down notes when he played his pieces.

[Deleted]

There is no point writing down, say, Pat Metheny's guitar solo, because it is not something one would replay in the future: this is pure improvisation, this is something he made up on the fly, as he played, and next time, playing the same song, he will play a different solo.

You can write down some core constructs, but there is little point writing the whole song as it's played, because live performance in jazz is very chaotic. Miles Davis, you bet, didn't rely on written down notes when he played his pieces.

Solo are solo. Pat metheny follows a theme solo theme. And the recurring themes are all written. They all start written

[May90]

Solo are solo. Pat metheny follows a theme solo theme. And the recurring themes are all written. They all start written

Even in these themes, there is a lot of room for improvisation. You can write down some reference track, sure, but that track will have a secondary value in an actual performance.

[Deleted]

Even in these themes, there is a lot of room for improvisation. You can write down some reference track, sure, but that track will have a secondary value in an actual performance.

Not really. Recurring themes are recurring themes exactly because... well... they recur in exactly the same way.

[Tryuk]

Not really. Recurring themes are recurring themes exactly because... well... they recur in exactly the same way.

That's a bit too regimented way of thinking for jazz don't you think?

Edit: What I'm saying is that stuff doesn't need to recur exactly. That and there are more forms than just ABABABA... etc.

[Deleted]

That's a bit too regimented way of thinking for jazz don't you think?

Edit: What I'm saying is that stuff doesn't need to recur or be exactly the same. That and there are more forms than just ABABABA... etc.

Well.. There's a thousand different ways of "Jazz", the most recognizable form being theme-solo-theme-solo etc etc.
That'd be something like ABCBDBEB, do you get me.

Jazz is very academic now.
Having said that, jazz is everything so you get stuff like melhiana for example which is not written. That really doesn't matter though as both Brad mehldau and mark guliana have very strict academic backgrounds

[melodramocracy]

Most of the time my ear only gets me so far, and I do need to fall back on reference material. With guitar it can be a bit tricky because you won't always know what tuning is being used. Piano is a bit more straightforward, but I have problems with complex chords and what not.

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i promise you that i will listen to an album or two of him! sounds seriously good! (he must be a fan of Gary moore right? i hear alot of GM in there.)




1. Robert Johnson
2. Elvis Presley
3. The Beatles (Lennon, Harrison, McCartney and Starr, all of them cant/couldent read notes)
4. Jimi Hendrix (there is a suprize for ya' )
5. Tony Williams
6. Eric Clapton (cocaaaiiiiiin!)
7. Stevie Ray Vaughan
8. Eddie Van Halen (Dont underestimate EVH!)
9. Tommy Emmanuel (Pro since age 6, and has played on stage 50 odd years if i recall right.)
10. Slash

All those i have listed here, would love to tell ya something, they cant read a note but they sure can play some!

i find it funny, im a big fan of most of them lol

Anyway, you get the idea!

I call bullshit on this. Sorry, you don't spend decades working with countless studio performers (McCartney, for example), and not learn at least the basics of reading / writing.

[May90]

Not really. Recurring themes are recurring themes exactly because... well... they recur in exactly the same way.

No theme in Jazz has to recur in the exact same way. Take even one of the simplest songs ever, Duke's Place, which often is jokingly called a "song of two notes": you can replace the dominant one by subdominant one every so often, for example, to add dynamics; or you can add a bit of "funkiness" to it by playing with those notes' rhyme... There is nothing in Jazz that can't be changed to one's liking.

With guitar it can be a bit tricky because you won't always know what tuning is being used. Piano is a bit more straightforward, but I have problems with complex chords and what not.

Backwards for me: I have no trouble taking chords with a large number of notes on piano, but on guitar even a 3-notes chord can give me pause.

[Deleted]

No theme in Jazz has to recur in the exact same way. Take even one of the simplest songs ever, Duke's Place, which often is jokingly called a "song of two notes": you can replace the dominant one by subdominant one every so often, for example, to add dynamics; or you can add a bit of "funkiness" to it by playing with those notes' rhyme... There is nothing in Jazz that can't be changed to one's liking.


Backwards for me: I have no trouble taking chords with a large number of notes on piano, but on guitar even a 3-notes chord can give me pause.

Whatever I guess.

[Kathandira]

So I know we have some musicians on these boards. How do you learn songs? Do you need sheet music or are you able to learn by hearing the song? Personally I need sheet music.

Depends on the complexity of the song. Simple things I can learn by ear. But more complicated things, I read the tablature. Unfortunately, I am not well educated in music, so I cannot read traditional sheet music.

[Stormdash]

So I know we have some musicians on these boards. How do you learn songs? Do you need sheet music or are you able to learn by hearing the song? Personally I need sheet music.

Terrible sight reader, so I always prefer to hear a piece. Well, I can sight read the beat but not the notes.

[Kathandira]

A tip/advice that i can give for any person who wants to use their ears, make it in to a "sport" to remember what an "A" chord/note sounds like, the same goes for the rest of the string/notes

As a person who has finally become interested in learning more about music (not just able to play stuff, but to actually understand it), I actually start with an A on all songs I write, or learn if I am doing it by ear.

I listen to the first note of the song, and position myself on the A, then I go higher or lower until I find that note. Then I work the scale from there to learn the rest of the song.

I blame my band Centennials on it. We have so many songs that are based around A.

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Well.. There's a thousand different ways of "Jazz", the most recognizable form being theme-solo-theme-solo etc etc.
That'd be something like ABCBDBEB, do you get me.

Jazz is very academic now.
Having said that, jazz is everything so you get stuff like melhiana for example which is not written. That really doesn't matter though as both Brad mehldau and mark guliana have very strict academic backgrounds

The new thing for the passed few years is Math Rock/Experimental Instrumental Jazz Rock. I personally think it has the best innovations in music in a very long time.

For example, The Physics Houses Band. Jazzy as hell, but also very Rock (used in a generic way) as well. This is the music I have been using to inspire me when writing new material for my two bands. Granted, the bands I play in are no where near what this is, but it is still inspiring all the same.

[Deleted]

As a person who has finally become interested in learning more about music (not just able to play stuff, but to actually understand it), I actually start with an A on all songs I write, or learn if I am doing it by ear.

I listen to the first note of the song, and position myself on the A, then I go higher or lower until I find that note. Then I work the scale from there to learn the rest of the song.

I blame my band Centennials on it. We have so many songs that are based around A.

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The new thing for the passed few years is Math Rock/Experimental Instrumental Jazz Rock. I personally think it has the best innovations in music in a very long time.

For example, The Physics Houses Band. Jazzy as hell, but also very Rock (used in a generic way) as well. This is the music I have been using to inspire me when writing new material for my two bands. Granted, the bands I play in are no where near what this is, but it is still inspiring all the same.

I think I understand the kind of genre you're on about and yes I agree, there is a lot going on now. The last couple decades were fucking brutal. This is a breath of fresh air.

[Draeth]

I'm always amazed by the number of musicians in these threads who can't read sheet music. I haven't played since high school, but it only took me a month or so in band to learn to read.

Back when I was playing actively, I leaned everything from reading. I've only ever known two people who could play a song by ear, one of whom had perfect pitch and could sing or play literally anything on any instrument after hearing it once, and the other of whom has 14 years of classical and contemporary training and can only do it on stringed instruments.

[Kathandira]

I'm always amazed by the number of musicians in these threads who can't read sheet music. I haven't played since high school, but it only took me a month or so in band to learn to read.

Back when I was playing actively, I leaned everything from reading. I've only ever known two people who could play a song by ear, one of whom had perfect pitch and could sing or play literally anything on any instrument after hearing it once, and the other of whom has 14 years of classical and contemporary training and can only do it on stringed instruments.

I unfortunately did not attend any schools which taught music passed the 8th grade. So if I were to learn, I would either have to pay for lessons (can get VERY expensive) or I would have to learn online, which does me no good as I am not a read and learn kind of person. I need hands on education, and as well a person who I can talk to about what I am learning and ask questions.

I know it sounds like an excuse, but it is what it is.

[Granyala]

I unfortunately did not attend any schools which taught music passed the 8th grade. So if I were to learn, I would either have to pay for lessons (can get VERY expensive) or I would have to learn online, which does me no good as I am not a read and learn kind of person. I need hands on education, and as well a person who I can talk to about what I am learning and ask questions.

I know it sounds like an excuse, but it is what it is.

Not every person is an autodidact.

I would recommend learning to read notes, because, frankly spoken: simple reading is the easiest part of making music and will take you a few weeks max.
Sight reading and playing sth that is unfamiliar is a whole other can'o'worms though.