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  1. #141
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    A lot of people seem to be overlooking that the Horde leader was already mortally injured and down. I guarantee if the situation were reversed and Varian was the one already mortally injured and near death, along with seeing the situation Genn and others would have called the same retreat. They went there thinking they were taking on a small landing party-sized invasion force, not the bulk of the entire Legion (ex, "That's not an invasion force, that's an army..."). When it became clear that there were 100x more Legion forces there than they anticipated, it went from a long-shot fight to unwinnable and the only options were retreat or annihilation. During the fight Thrall was down as well, and the Alliance barely made it out by the skin of their teeth. Militarily it was a big mistake not to retreat sooner, but it would have been an even larger mistake to fight an unwinnable battle to the end - leaving Azeroth completely open for the taking afterwards.

    Think Dunkirk in WW2, the British didn't fight to the end in an unwinnable fight just throwing away lives being stubborn. They retreated and came back to fight another day when the situation is more in their favor. IMO Alliance being upset about the retreat is comparable to saying the troops at Dunkirk should have stayed on the beach and fought to the last man.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    None of what you said contradicts what I said. Varian sacrificed his own life while Sylvanas chose to sacrifice the Alliance.
    And how exactly did she do that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    After the Horde made off. Jesus. Then Varian threw himself at the Fel thing knowing he would surely die, but knowing that it would ensure the safety of literally everyone else.
    Doesn't change the part that both factions retreated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    The Alliance has always been the faction that made heroic sacrifices, while the Horde has always been the faction that stabbed others and each other in the back.
    Retreating isn't backstabbing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    This. WoW Lore isn't supposed to be like a football league. Get a reality check.
    Yeah, I'm glad WoW lore isn't as boring as most sports leagues.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    It's irritating that most conflicts between the horde and alliance are basically spawned from misunderstandings, of which are usually borne out of lack of information, and both sides probably know that.
    Ehh, most previous conflicts were rather clear. With maybe the exception of Ashran.


    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Would it kill them to decide on specific calls ahead of time, like perhaps 3 quick blares of a horn, to inform the other side that they are in danger of wiping and need to retreat? How can any sort of serious multi-party cooperative force not have any way to convey to their allies of the state of the battlefield?
    They weren't in danger of wiping earlier. The Fel Carriers wiped in at the end of the scenario, bombed the shit out of them and then it switches to the cinematic. And horns are sufficient signals widely used throughout history and used in Warcraft prior to Broken Shore as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    I love Horde fanboy logic.

    >Genn/Varian/Alliance is a coward for retreating.
    >Sylvanas is a tactical genius who is the smartest person ever for retreating and anybody who disagrees is a poopoo head because how dare you insult my body pillow.
    Context, how does it work? Today on "Things not to be learned from Bigby's posts"!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  5. #145
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Was such information reported during the battle, on the battlefield, as opposed to after?
    No information is reported during a battle. Again, that's a completely Hollywoodesque concept.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    They retreated after the Horde "pussied out". Varian recalculated the odds and came to the conclusion that after the Horde left them hanging, they would surely all die, for nothing. So Varian decided to give his people the chance to fight another day.
    The Horde was obliterated by the Fel Carriers. On the other hand, the Alliance was in no immediate danger because of the Horde's retreat given how the Legion forces that appeared on the ridge where the Dark Rangers were were melee and there was no immediate land access. The only thing the Alliance needed Horde for was anti-air support. Which forced the Horde to split in two, robbed the Horde forces focusing on their own demons (more than the Alliance faced) of their own anti-air support and gave the Alliance additional troops. It doesn't speak wonders about Alliance's military prowess. And then they covered the air problem with the gunship anyway. So if we have someone cowardly, who fits more? The faction that retreated because they were steamrolled, or the faction whose immediate circumstances didn't change and moments earlier was delusional about victory being within their grasp?


    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I get that you have to retreat sometimes when the odds are bad. No point in dying a needless death. It's the fact that the Horde left the Alliance hanging in the midst of battle after agreeing to fight together and after the leaders build up a certain trust in each other.
    The Horde couldn't do squat to help the Alliance. The Alliance covered the Felbat problem on their own immediately after the Horde retreated and the demons that arrived after the Horde left were melee soldiers. That arrived, marching rather slowly, on the rear line of Horde's second front moments after the horn has been sound. Which means their ranks have been torn to shreds and the Dark Rangers would join Vol'jin in being a shish kebab.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    The whole spirit of their conversation is "we're in this together". Had Sylvanas come down to Varian and told him "look Wrynn, we will lose this battle, we have to retreat and regroup and launch another attack another day, recall your forces and I will recall mine" then it would've been a totally different thing.
    So you want her to say all of that when the single horn signal already conveyed that and more, within much shorter amount of time? And how to you suppose Sylvanas was about to get to Varian in the first place? Jump from the cliff?


    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    Now I get that decisions had to be made quickly, but as a leader, you also have to consider how your actions will look to the other faction, and what consequences that will bring with it and this way, it looked like the moment the battle was getting serious, the Horde forces turned around, and left, without a word, leaving the Alliance to the slaughter. It looked like they set it up like that. Of course the Alliance feels betrayed, why wouldn't they?
    Considering that they were being obliterated there wasn't much time to think. And considering that the Fel Carriers are visible from Alliance's position, let alone from the Alliance Gunship, Alliance had enough information available to them for things to look the way they actually were. And while the Horde left without a word if you get down to semantics, they did also leave after conveying the information to the Alliance. And yes, Horde would obviously set things up like that because they don't hate the Legion and want to watch Azeroth burn in Fel fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    No. He died like an idiot because he was too stupid to get the airship to shoot the fel reaver in the face.
    Really? with what crew? They were all either falling off or sliding around about to fall off. Genn was clinging to the rails reaching for Varian, Mekkatorque was clinging to another rail and a grabbing a few soldiers. You can see the rest all sliding around or falling off.... kinda hard to get to cannons or fire cannons when you can't position yourself right.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    The Alliance has always been the faction that made heroic sacrifices, while the Horde has always been the faction that stabbed others and each other in the back.
    Because Grom Hellscream's sacrifice isn't one of the most memorable things from the Warcraft series

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    It must be hard living in a world where you can't understand simple things like he was just responding to bullshit with the same bullshit to show how stupid that type of reasoning is.
    Please, you barely need context with the Sylvanas Defence Force. It's always one rule for the Alliance, one rule for the Hor- uhh, Forsaken, regardless of the original post.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Better View Post
    Because Grom Hellscream's sacrifice isn't one of the most memorable things from the Warcraft series
    The same guy who made the mess in the first place? Grom really just wanted to kill a big ass demon. Grom is an asshole. As you can see in Warlords of Draenor. Grom didn't really intend to sacrifice himself, he just wanted to kill Mannoroth cause that's what orcs do. They kill. That Mannoroth would blow up and kill Grom in the process wasn't something Grom knew about beforehand.

  11. #151
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    Please, you barely need context with the Sylvanas Defence Force. It's always one rule for the Alliance, one rule for the Hor- uhh, Forsaken, regardless of the original post.
    I like how "sylvanas defense force" sprouted from a guy who was mad that people don't take his own incredibly biased view on things as supreme fact. Way to keep the tradition alive bro.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    The same guy who made the mess in the first place? Grom really just wanted to kill a big ass demon. Grom is an asshole. As you can see in Warlords of Draenor. Grom didn't really intend to sacrifice himself, he just wanted to kill Mannoroth cause that's what orcs do. They kill. That Mannoroth would blow up and kill Grom in the process wasn't something Grom knew about beforehand.
    Doesn't make his sacrifice any lesser You're trying to compare 20 somthing WoD grom to 45 year old MU grom who learned from his mistakes and actually wanted to make things right.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  12. #152
    Where did all those val'kyr come from though? I thought Sylvanas was down to one val'kyr and there were like easily a half dozen in the cinematic. Isn't her whole storyline in Legion built around not having any more val'kyr and trying to barter them from Hylia? I was confused by that more than anything.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deuse View Post
    Where did all those val'kyr come from though? I thought Sylvanas was down to one val'kyr and there were like easily a half dozen in the cinematic. Isn't her whole storyline in Legion built around not having any more val'kyr and trying to barter them from Hylia? I was confused by that more than anything.
    She had four left. The main Val'kyr can create lesser val'kyr
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Doesn't make his sacrifice any lesser You're trying to compare 20 somthing WoD grom to 45 year old MU grom who learned from his mistakes and actually wanted to make things right.
    45 year old MU Grom slaughtered pigskins with a passion, even though Thrall told him to cut it out. 45 year old MU Grom drank the demon blood again, because it made him stronger to kill purpleskinned wood elves, which he loved almost as much as killing pigskins. 45 year old MU Grom was an asshole just as much as 20 something WoD Grom. Grom always represented the worst of his race and his "sacrifice" was largely out of self-interest and is highly overrated.

  15. #155
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    45 year old MU Grom slaughtered pigskins with a passion, even though Thrall told him to cut it out.
    You should replay that part of Warcraft 3 for context. Mannoroth's presence on Kalimdor rekindled the Demonrage in the Orcs. Grom comments on this.

    drank the demon blood again,
    Because he was already addicted, the Night elves attacked first and were overrunning them with the aid of a demi god who refused to accept it when grom said they weren't demon pawns.

    That pesky context goes right out the window when it goes against your view doesn't it?


    . Grom always represented the worst of his race and his "sacrifice" was largely out of self-interest and is highly overrated.
    Keep telling yourself that. Grom Went to Kill mannoroth for more than just himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Grom Went to Kill mannoroth for more than just himself.
    Keep telling that to yourself.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    45 year old MU Grom slaughtered pigskins with a passion, even though Thrall told him to cut it out. 45 year old MU Grom drank the demon blood again, because it made him stronger to kill purpleskinned wood elves, which he loved almost as much as killing pigskins. 45 year old MU Grom was an asshole just as much as 20 something WoD Grom. Grom always represented the worst of his race and his "sacrifice" was largely out of self-interest and is highly overrated.
    Context counting for a great deal, you can also see it this way. MU Grom is told his race is in a desperate campaign against a force that wishes the complete destruction of his kind for unknown reasons. Responding to this threat he is told that Gul'dan's patrons offer the Orcish race power enough to safeguard their future, and he drinks the blood of Mannoroth in order to help save his people. Driven by demonic and genocidal rage he fights first the Draenei and then the Alliance, only to be defeated and trapped on Azeroth with the demon-fire slowly banking down to embers in his blood. Wracked with guilt but still subject to the occasional flare of rage (as per "Lord of the Clans"), Grom joins Thrall's crusade to free and redeem the Orcish clans.

    In this process he follows Thrall to Kalimdor, and trying to create a makeshift home for his people he angers the Night Elves by cutting timber in their forests (said forests being sacred to them, something he didn't and couldn't have known). The Night Elves attack, and force him to make the drastic decision to drink from a fountain radiating power in order to again safeguard his people from an attacking force. Fast-forward to being freed from Mannoroth's control once more, he is wracked by guilt and sacrifices himself to undo the mistakes of both the current and the past, freeing the Orcs from their collective bondage to the Legion.

    Both our stories are true - it all depends in what kind of light you want to see the events.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #158
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meridas View Post
    Keep telling that to yourself.
    He was trying to do right by his actions (seriously maybe you should actually play WC3?), as long as Manny lived the orcs would always be Threatened. Yes Grom wanted to spite Mannoroth, but that wasn't his only motivation.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  19. #159
    Horde is all "Lok'tar Ogar" until its time to "Lok'tar Ogar" No matter how its spun, that's what it amounts to.

  20. #160
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimDesign View Post
    Horde is all "Lok'tar Ogar" until its time to "Lok'tar Ogar" No matter how its spun, that's what it amounts to.
    Its almost like Not every member is an Orc or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

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