1. #8761
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    I'm genuinely curious, since a lot of the people who would often claim that they just looooooooooooooooooooove flying and that we're being meaniepantsheads by wanting the expansion to be built from the ground, love it because they apparently love the act of flying...

    Or because they like that it is simply more convenient and faster. What if you could run at 600% speed on a mount, and flying remained at 280/310? Would we start seeing these same people use the ground instead of flight, since even accounting for taking roundabout paths, it would be faster?
    More convenient and faster than what, exactly? Remember that before WoD, flying speed and utility was more prevalent than ground mounts. It was considered the baseline for the open world at level cap, except in specific, limited areas. It was the norm.

    If we're going to start trying to second guess people's true reasons for enjoying flight, then I want to know how many people honestly, truthfully believed that flight was a problem before blizzard made it into one. I guaran-fucking-tee you it wouldn't be the majority. But we'll never know that because it's much easier for people to suck down the sweet SWEET confirmation bias they get from agreeing with Blizzard.

    And even if a few of them are able to objectively look at the differences between flying and no-flying and decide they honest-to-god like the ground game more, there's still NO reason for the two to be mutually exclusive other than Blizzard's desire to apply a single, over-simplified formula to their entire open world design.

    Uhg....
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-08-29 at 07:23 AM.

  2. #8762
    It was less of a problem in BC and Wrath because not everyone was max level and not everyone could afford it, fast flying especially.

  3. #8763
    I posted a longer version of this a few pages back. I like flying for more than one reason. Yes, I do like that it is faster. I am a parent, I run a business, I don't have the time I used to, it is the reason I gave up hardcore raiding. I won't lie about that.

    But, that is not the only reason. I also prefer the feel of a fantasy game world where my character can fly on all the magical winged creatures I've collected. Rather than have to watch it sadly walk down the road while random NPCs fly but my hero can't. That doesn't feel very heroic. I also enjoy exploring the world from all angles. I tend to notice the little details more while flying, on the ground I'm too concerned with avoiding mobs to appreciate that..

    So if there was something just as fast as flying, for getting from place to place, but that is not flying - sure, I'd be happier than I am with the current situation, but that would only address half of the reason why I prefer to have flying.
    Last edited by rebecca191; 2016-08-29 at 08:00 AM.

  4. #8764
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rigging your election
    Posts
    36,799
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    More convenient and faster than what, exactly? Remember that before WoD, flying speed and utility was more prevalent than ground mounts. It was considered the baseline for the open world at level cap, except in specific, limited areas. It was the norm.

    If we're going to start trying to second guess people's true reasons for enjoying flight, then I want to know how many people honestly, truthfully believed that flight was a problem before blizzard made it into one. I guaran-fucking-tee you it wouldn't be the majority. But we'll never know that because it's much easier for people to suck down the sweet SWEET confirmation bias they get from agreeing with Blizzard.

    And even if a few of them are able to objectively look at the differences between flying and no-flying and decide they honest-to-god like the ground game more, there's still NO reason for the two to be mutually exclusive other than Blizzard's desire to apply a single, over-simplified formula to their entire open world design.

    Uhg....
    Honestly?

    You don't have to believe me here but...

    As soon as Blizzard stopped being able to design good content incorporating flying into it, I honestly wanted it to all go back to ground. It was a problem. I loved it at first, how they were being novel with it, starting with the very first bombing run in hellfire peninsula. It started to feel really forced in Cata, and by the time MoP rolled around they just didn't care any more, but the damage was already done and people wanted their flight, dammit!

    So yeah, I haven't thought it was a problem from the very beginning, and I loved the direction they were taking with mounted combat in occulus and eye of eternity. Then so many people hated those two things, that they seemed to stop trying to bring out novel flight mechanics, and started to take a backwards approach. Cataclysm zone design was a fucking tragedy - over complicated in flow and direction, and the fact that it was designed around you having flight for leveling meant that you used it everywhere... which often meant getting knocked out of the air by some mobs. MoP seemed like a reprieve from the terrible zone design of Cata, where they wanted you to once again experience it from the ground then gave it to you at the end. I loved Warlords zone design, but sadly there was just nothing to do in them. They were pretty pictures without much in them.

    And I stated all of this during respective expansions. People called me crazy and stupid for liking the direction they were going with mounted flying combat, I wanted more raids to be designed around free flight but with our own abilities and some fights with vehicle abilities.

    In cata I railed on zone design and attributed it to being built around flight. In MoP I enjoyed a return to "built from the ground up" approach that the game had been built with prior to Cata.

    And yeah, I remember the days of having flying but not epic flying, and I would run around on the ground with my epic mount and then only use flight when it was to get me over a chasm or to get me into one of the flight-only areas or dungeons. I'd like to see people's reaction to a return of those days. Make flight available in 8.0, but make it 50% speed only, and make some areas only accessible with flying.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  5. #8765
    Deleted
    Im very fine with no flying

  6. #8766
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Honestly?

    You don't have to believe me here but...

    As soon as Blizzard stopped being able to design good content incorporating flying into it, I honestly wanted it to all go back to ground. It was a problem. I loved it at first, how they were being novel with it, starting with the very first bombing run in hellfire peninsula. It started to feel really forced in Cata, and by the time MoP rolled around they just didn't care any more, but the damage was already done and people wanted their flight, dammit!
    Then you are the minority. Because the majority of the comments were "Huh, I never realized I hate flying before Blizz told me I hate it"

  7. #8767
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Yes, people who dreamed up the Illuminati. People who believe 9/11 was an inside job feel themselves enlightened. Everyone who has come up with a conspiracy theory and felt they media was lying to think they're being independent thinkers and are the only ones who can "see the truth".

    "If they could implement flying easily, they would have."

    So you really think that enabling flying in a zone is more difficult than ensuring there's invisible walls in the sky box? Like, seriously, you actually believe this? You can't fathom that it was a design decision to not include it, and really think that it takes over a year to make it possible for people to fly?

    I have the taste of bait in my mouth now...

    Conspiracy theory? Using critical thinking skills doesn't mean you are conspiracy theorist and I am not sure how that has anything to do with the flying debate? Asking simple questions isn't hard to regarding to flying:

    1. An "artistic design decision" to gate flying. They do that with raids and mythic + right? But all of that is still tested in alpha/beta even if it is not immediately available for release right? So, why isn't flying being tested if it is ready to go in the alpha/beta? We have been through this before (aka WoD), so how is this a conspiracy theory? We know the answer already (they didn't have it ready for testing in the WoD alpha or beta). Using logic, we have realized more than likely they do not have it ready for Legion either, because it requires extra work like what happened in WoD.

    2. We have a clear timeline when gated content or activity will be available. Even though mythic + and raids are gated we still have a clear schedule of their release. If flying was so easy to put into the game then Blizzard would have a clear timeline of flying being released.

    3. The fact that Legion patchfinder achievement indicates it is only part one shows that there is more to the achievement, and yet we do not have a clear time table of when it will be completed, how, and the number of parts? Does Blizzard do such things to mythic raiders or PVP players? Even the PVP players know when the new season will start.

    4. Legion patchfinder requires you do content that has nothing to do with world exploration and is arbitrary for the most part. Also why is Legion patchfinder requiring so much reps when nothing else in the endgame of Legion requires heavy rep grinding? Rep grinding is simply a time waster.

    5. If flying was going to be put into the game so quickly, Blizzard wouldn't have wasted precious developer time making the flight whistle or that glider from High Mountain. Gimmicks that try to give you the illusion that you shouldn't "miss flight". But why go through all that trouble if flight is a flip of the switch? Or they can add invisible walls and flip on the flight switch?

    Moving on, again they have not done any invisible walls because why would they need to do it if flying is not even in the expansion yet? And if so, why haven't they done it already if that is the best solution to this problem? The devs have said they prefer to not have invisible walls and no flying auras, because it does cause other problems for them. Furthermore, the quest givers in Tanaan did not have a no flying auras added to them till AFTER flying was introduced in Tanaan. And this was recent change too by the way which happened a few months ago, but I think it was done as an anti griefing tool happening on world PVP realms.

    You don't like asking tough questions, so you want to stick to the script? That is fine. But my popularity is meaningless if I am not asking questions about how flying is unfolding in Legion? Besides, who cares about popularity over the internets lol?

  8. #8768
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Or because they like that it is simply more convenient and faster. What if you could run at 600% speed on a mount, and flying remained at 280/310? Would we start seeing these same people use the ground instead of flight, since even accounting for taking roundabout paths, it would be faster?
    Well, that would never work because they would make mobs run at 90-95% of ground mount speed to preserve "danger," which would not only look really effing stupid, but would be a nightmare for any class that relies on slows to kill enemies in the world.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  9. #8769
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Like does anyone find the actual act of flying enjoyable?
    i do - it was painfuly obvious for me in wod the first moment i got my druid to ashran and obtained thatflying tome was like -holy fuck i missed the freedom that flying gives you so much - f u blizz for taking it away.

  10. #8770
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    1. An "artistic design decision" to gate flying. They do that with raids and mythic + right? But all of that is still tested in alpha/beta even if it is not immediately available for release right? So, why isn't flying being tested if it is ready to go in the alpha/beta? We have been through this before (aka WoD), so how is this a conspiracy theory? We know the answer already (they didn't have it ready for testing in the WoD alpha or beta). Using logic, we have realized more than likely they do not have it ready for Legion either, because it requires extra work like what happened in WoD.

    2. We have a clear timeline when gated content or activity will be available. Even though mythic + and raids are gated we still have a clear schedule of their release. If flying was so easy to put into the game then Blizzard would have a clear timeline of flying being released.

    3. The fact that Legion patchfinder achievement indicates it is only part one shows that there is more to the achievement, and yet we do not have a clear time table of when it will be completed, how, and the number of parts? Does Blizzard do such things to mythic raiders or PVP players? Even the PVP players know when the new season will start.

    4. Legion patchfinder requires you do content that has nothing to do with world exploration and is arbitrary for the most part. Also why is Legion patchfinder requiring so much reps when nothing else in the endgame of Legion requires heavy rep grinding? Rep grinding is simply a time waster.

    5. If flying was going to be put into the game so quickly, Blizzard wouldn't have wasted precious developer time making the flight whistle or that glider from High Mountain. Gimmicks that try to give you the illusion that you shouldn't "miss flight". But why go through all that trouble if flight is a flip of the switch? Or they can add invisible walls and flip on the flight switch?
    @The Batman

    He does make some good points. The only thing I can think of to answer some of them is that the open world is much larger than any raid or dungeon. However, it doesn't seem to add up, since the open world is going to be ready for release before raids, and yet wasn't tested for flying. Flying is, of course, being released later than raiding, so maybe we'll see it on the PTR soon? Hard to say.

    As for rep grinds, I've NEVER liked them. I still don't know why they ever got rid of the tabard system. I thought that was one of the best ways to let people grind reps while actually doing something else they enjoyed. It gave players more freedom to do the content they want instead of being funneled into specific tasks. I wish they'd expanded on that instead of abandoning it.

  11. #8771
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,295
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    I *hated* the immersion break when leveling in Twilight Highlands in early Cata, when you'd work your way into the boss, only to have some flyer come in and land on the boss, tag them, kill them, and fly off, leaving you 3 mobs from the boss, and having to wait for respawn.
    How is it different from the same situation only with some random guy on a ground mount? I will not believe you if you gonna claim that that never happened to you.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  12. #8772
    Everyone can tag the quest NPC in Legion and get credit, lol.

  13. #8773
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    The Other Side of Azeroth
    Posts
    8,981
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post

    @clevin: Regarding Warlords precipitous drop in subscriptions before 6.1. While agreeing with you that it wasn't normal, a view that doesn't get aired enough is that somewhere between four and five million people who had already quit before came back so at least for that group they had no qualms about leaving again. Lack of anything to do that wasn't raiding was likely the main reason for that or it could be that people don't have much interest in paying $80 dollars to play for any longer than sixty days. As old as the game is, it's not really attracting new players to any great degree so those that come back are less likely predisposed to stick around for any longer than necessary. Blizzard wins on box sales and I would greatly recommend that people let go of the idea that people should play for months and months. It's fine if they do but it's also OK if they don't. I'm sure Blizzard would prefer they do but the company isn't teetering on the brink of anything bad should it not work out. It seems pretty clear to me that if Legion goes as they are intimating it will that's a direct response to the problems of Warlords. Which is also good. Personally, I'm not sure any longer that playing the same game for months at a time, especially one that costs you every month you play, is really the way video games are generally played in 2016. I'm watching retention rates for a lot of games pretty closely and most games don't have a lot of sticky players. Just my thoughts on all of this.
    I dont disagree with most of that. The reason I made that point was that it was a bump and a drop that was NOT typical of past trends for WoW as the poster I replied to was arguing.

    However, I think Blizzard is likely teetering on WoW becoming non-viable in the next few years. The spike from box sales may well get smaller and smaller as people find less reason to play for any length of time. That is, they may simply decide that if WoW is becoming a once every 2 years purchase to allocate those dollars elsewhere, especially if they come back and are disillusioned - the "I came back for THIS?" reaction.

    The question is what combination of box sales and sub feels are needed to keep investing in expansions and patches? Does it make sense to keep doing those (at the current level) if there are, say, 3mm box sales and 2m subs? 2m and 1m? At some point, it will make more sense to allocate people to other projects that are new (think Overwatch, HS, etc). Where that is, I don't know.

    Is WoW fine for the next, oh, 4-6 years? Yeah probably and frankly that's a damn good run even if it peters out after that.

    PS: On topic, while I agree that WoD's failure was content driven for the most part I simply don't see why the team added fuel to the fire by changing how flying worked. It brought nothing to the game (no new kind of content that was possible only without flight, etc) and it left a good many people feeling jerked around.

  14. #8774
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    The Other Side of Azeroth
    Posts
    8,981
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Sure, that happened to me...but maybe twice, while flyers happened all the time. I'm fine with the Draenor model, so you can have flying when leveling new toons through WoD after WoD is mostly or completely over, but not pulling the 'drop on the quest boss' in main leveling time.
    Please keep up. No one is arguing for flight during leveling. And the 'drop in on quest boss' issue is trivially addressed, most easily by making the quest to kill the boss AND some of the other mobs or to get a drop off one of theother mobs, etc. All of this was noted way back when Bashiok put forth the argument in the first place.

  15. #8775
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,295
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Sure, that happened to me...but maybe twice, while flyers happened all the time.
    Of course it happens more with flying because flying takes people into the world, and ground mounts prevent that. So you basically want to play solo. Flying has nothing to do with it.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  16. #8776
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Of course, current tagging mechanics would mean I could help someone out and not lose my kill, too. Thanks for that, Blizzard!
    So your only stated reason to oppose Flight has been duly addressed.

    Its OK to have our wings at launch now?

  17. #8777
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    The Other Side of Azeroth
    Posts
    8,981
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    In my opinion, I like the current model. Wings can wait. Evidently Blizzard thinks it's an immersion-breaker as well.
    Blizzard left fight active for 7.5 of the first 10 years. If they felt it was actually damaging the game they should have pulled it much earlier. Also , you have NO CLUE as to what Blizzard actualy thinks

    See the guy right below this post...he wants it right at launch. So, yes, some do want it. I really don't.
    Again, KEEP UP. People who want it at launch for max level toons are not arguing to have it for leveling.

    Look, go skim-read the thread. You're re-arguing old points and it's not worth it to walk through everything with you. The short version, though, is that the anti-flight crowd has never articulated any reasons why it shouldn't be available as we hit max level, aside from personal preference. All of the 'hurt the game' issues ignore that the game had tons of subs when flight was in. removing flight didn't seem to bring back any people. So, what's the reason again ASIDE from "I like it that way"?
    Last edited by clevin; 2016-08-29 at 07:15 PM.

  18. #8778
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    In my opinion, I like the current model. Wings can wait.
    So it was never about actually making the game better. Thanks for the confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Oh, and your forum avatar fits you well. Cardassians are almost always pricks.


    Your greed for making a smart comeback has not served you well this time.

  19. #8779
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Of course it happens more with flying because flying takes people into the world, and ground mounts prevent that. So you basically want to play solo. Flying has nothing to do with it.
    Flying takes people out of the world.

  20. #8780
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    DS9
    Posts
    20,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Phumbles View Post
    Flying takes people out of the world.
    Experimentally proven wrong.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •