Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
... LastLast
  1. #161
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    seriously maybe you should actually play WC3
    I did. Maybe you should. He was trying to do "the right thing", but that still doesn't change that it was out of self-interest and that he wasn't really expecting to sacrifice himself. Is there any point you can make that would convince someone that Grom KNEW he was gonna die in the fight against Mannoroth, that he KNEW Mannoroth would blow up and take himself with him? No. He was just there to kill a demon. Just like he kills pigskins.

    What Varian did was on a completely different scale. Thrall and Grom faced one demon, one that, under other circumstances, could be killed without any casualties (see WoD). Varian faced a Legion. The moment he gave Genn the letter to his son and dropped down from the ship he KNEW he was gonna die. He accepted death for what he wanted to achieve. Grom might've been prepared to die in every battle, but he never knew he was gonna die for sure. If you try to kill someone, and he takes you with him, that's not a sacrifice. That's more of a failure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Its almost like Not every member is an Orc or something.
    It's actually in the Blood Oath of the Horde, that every member of the Horde takes.

    Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

    From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11983/b...h-of-the-horde
    Last edited by mmoc58c3f6ef37; 2016-08-29 at 06:34 PM.

  2. #162
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    I did. Maybe you should. He was trying to do "the right thing", but that still doesn't change that it was out of self-interest and that he wasn't really expecting to sacrifice himself. Is there any point you can make that would convince someone that Grom KNEW he was gonna die in the fight against Mannoroth, that he KNEW Mannoroth would blow up and take himself with him? No. He was just there to kill a demon. Just like he kills pigskins.
    So Grom's sacrifice doesn't count because he didn't know he was going to die. That is some special logic there.

    What Varian did was on a completely different scale. Thrall and Grom faced one demon, one that, under other circumstances, could be killed without any casualties (see WoD). Varian faced a Legion. The moment he gave Genn the letter to his son and dropped down from the ship he KNEW he was gonna die. He accepted death for what he wanted to achieve. Grom might've been prepared to die in every battle, but he never knew he was gonna die for sure. If you try to kill someone, and he takes you with him, that's not a sacrifice. That's more of a failure.
    Varian didn't kill a single thing permanently So I guess hes a failure too.

    Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

    I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

    From this moment until the end of days I live and die - FOR THE HORDE!
    "Victory or death" It doesn't mean stupid like what Garrosh twisted it to. Dying with no purpose doesn't apply to Lok'tar ogar.

    The Entire Horde isn't Warsong Orcs From the Kor'kron.

    The Situation of the Broken Shore doesn't even apply Loktar'ogar to it because there was no chance of winning.
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2016-08-29 at 07:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimDesign View Post
    Horde is all "Lok'tar Ogar" until its time to "Lok'tar Ogar" No matter how its spun, that's what it amounts to.
    And the objective fact that victory wasn't one of the available outcomes on the Broken Shore? "Death or Death" isn't the idea.

  4. #164
    I just love how every time the Horde use their brains in a military situation, always trumping the Alliance's philosophy of "conscript a crapton of farmboys and send them to their deaths because fighting a war of attrition where everybody on both sides dies until one side is completely out of drafted fighters is the honorable thing to do", Alliance fanboys go crazy.

    I wish Blizzard would stop making reading a book on military tactics a despicable crime punishable by raid boss-hood.

    Either that, or make every single player who uses anything other than Auto Attack subject to a military court for their war crimes of actually using something other than basic sticks and harsh language for an advantage over their legitimate enemy. Gotta be consistent and follow the established rules for your universe.


    But of course, it's only a crime when you use it on a character or characters affiliated with Alliance. It's totally okay to bomb, poison, or otherwise massacre the hell out of a large group of people as long as they're not part of the player factions. (Blackrock in Redridge with the Alliance steam tanks, pretty much every quest involving murdering gnolls, murlocs, kobolds, etc., pretty much every quest zone where you do some genocide on the enemies of the friends of your friends like forest trolls in Hinterlands)

  5. #165
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Horde did nothing wrong, they retreated when the going got tough. It's really Varian's fault, he trusted the Horde - and got burned (literally). Hopefully Anduin will be more cautious. The Horde has shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted when it comes down to it. Why Varian decided they'd be the best to cover their flank & skies is beyond me, he basically asked for a massacre along with his own death.

    Sylvanas didn't do anything either, other than blow the horn - Vol'Jin, the warchief, chose to command Sylvanas to retreat. It wasn't her decision, and I don't know why so many people are attributing it to her. She's like a 2-Star General leading the Dark Rangers/Forsaken, and Vol'Jin was equal to the commander-in-chief. She had no choice but to obey.

    As for Lok'tar Ogar, it means nothing. The Horde has never lived by it. It's one of those nice sayings and warcries, but when it comes down to it, each Horde member would rather live than "die honorably". Garrosh was one of the few orcs who actually lived by it, and look what happened to him - he went completely insane and ended up dying in a giant earth hand being struck by lightning.

    Sylvanas did what she was told, Vol'Jin saved his own skin and his friends, and Varian's Alliance paid the price by believing the Horde would be there to help.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMonk79 View Post
    Really? with what crew? They were all either falling off or sliding around about to fall off. Genn was clinging to the rails reaching for Varian, Mekkatorque was clinging to another rail and a grabbing a few soldiers. You can see the rest all sliding around or falling off.... kinda hard to get to cannons or fire cannons when you can't position yourself right.
    The cannons can pivot enough to shoot the flying bat demons, they can shoot a stationary target.

  7. #167
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Pretty much none of that even makes sense. The Horde would have all died had they not retreated, and the entirety of the Alliance forces - including every one of the leaders on the field - would have been surrounded and killed immediately after without the retreat warning.
    Never said the Horde would have lived if they stayed and fought

    Never said that the Alliance would win if they stay and fought

    Never said the leaders would live if they stay and fought

    Never said they would have lived without the retreat warning.

    Not sure where you got any of that from? Other than your head - which you then shoved into my mouth so you could argue against your own thoughts.


    My whole point, which you clearly missed, is that Varian MESSED UP when he chose to TRUST the Horde. Everything else was a predictable outcome by letting the Horde protect your weak spots (air & flank)

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    The cannons can pivot enough to shoot the flying bat demons, they can shoot a stationary target.
    The odds are there's crew firing them. With the ship being tilted sideways and people sliding and falling off the odds are there was no one to fire said cannons. Yes they could move but as far as we know it takes personnel to fire them. Its even in the starting scenario for Storheim... you control one of the cannons. Also they pivoted more left to right with a little bit up and down. The angle of the ship all they probably could have hit was the ground or worse yet blow a hole in their own roof thus sending the gunship to a fiery death....

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimDesign View Post
    Horde is all "Lok'tar Ogar" until its time to "Lok'tar Ogar" No matter how its spun, that's what it amounts to.
    that is an orc saying not a horde saying.
    rarely do any other race in the horde say that.
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Actarius View Post
    My whole point, which you clearly missed, is that Varian MESSED UP when he chose to TRUST the Horde. Everything else was a predictable outcome by letting the Horde protect your weak spots (air & flank)
    Then your point is a failed, irrational mess. The Horde did not break faith with the Alliance, the Horde fought to the point of annihilation -- with one hand tied behind its back since it was splitting its attention to watch the air over the Alliance force -- and was forced to withdraw and announced that withdrawal with a horn call that was immediately understood as sounding the retreat it signified.

    Anything your expecting beyond that is... frankly asinine. The Horde made no vow to die as cannon fodder for a failing cause, especially a cause all involved -- player and character -- know in hindsight was literally unattainable. Indeed, the Horde made no 'vow' at all. The two sides fought cooperatively from start to finish. Sylvanas' regret about being forced to leave was apparent on her face, but it was still a necessity and there was still nothing more they could have reasonably done to make the Alliance leave more quickly or more safely. The Fel Reaver was coming no matter what Sylvanas did.

  11. #171
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So basically you said it, but you used different words to say it, so I'm wrong for addressing what you said by using different words.

    "You were wrong to trust Bob with that money. We all know about Bob."

    "But Bob didn't steal the money. He got mugged."

    "I didn't say he stole it! I just said that you shouldn't have trusted him and that we all know about him and wink wink nudge nudge."

    So basically you're strawmanning.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  12. #172
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    Then your point is a failed, irrational mess. The Horde did not break faith with the Alliance, the Horde fought to the point of annihilation -- with one hand tied behind its back since it was splitting its attention to watch the air over the Alliance force -- and was forced to withdraw and announced that withdrawal with a horn call that was immediately understood as sounding the retreat it signified.

    Anything your expecting beyond that is... frankly asinine. The Horde made no vow to die as cannon fodder for a failing cause, especially a cause all involved -- player and character -- know in hindsight was literally unattainable. Indeed, the Horde made no 'vow' at all. The two sides fought cooperatively from start to finish. Sylvanas' regret about being forced to leave was apparent on her face, but it was still a necessity and there was still nothing more they could have reasonably done to make the Alliance leave more quickly or more safely. The Fel Reaver was coming no matter what Sylvanas did.
    It's fairly rational. I didn't say the Horde broke faith with the alliance. The Horde was right to withdraw. The horn was very clearly "The Horde is retreating". I never said I expected anything else from the Horde, actually I pretty heavily implied that their behaviour is exactly what I expect from the Horde. I'm aware they never made a vow to be cannon fodder. I was addressing the several forum posters who use Lok'tar Ogar as a defense for attacking the Horde's actions. It has never been literal or taking literally. Everyone knows that the Horde will retreat if they're going to lose the vast majority of their army.

    Since it wasn't clear, given the responses: THE HORDE DID THE ONLY THING THEY COULD HAVE DONE. My whole point, is that this is the norm when working with the Horde. Their pride makes them take on way to much responsibility, only to fail and leave their commrades to die. When I went through the scenario, and saw the Horde going up on the ridge, my first thought was "They're going to get overrun, retreat, and we're going to die". Which is more or less what happened, with fewer deaths than I anticipated.

    And of course the Fel Reaver was coming no matter what she did. I'm not dense enough to think she summoned it, the cinematic clearly shows Gul'Dan summoning it. Again, my whole point is if Varian did not put his faith in the Horde, he would not have rushed the Broken Shore (due to a lack of forces) and would have lived. His mistake was believing that the Horde was more than they are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Either you legitimately don't know what your own words mean, or you're just being obtuse for the sake of it at this point.

    Or just this:

    [/FONT]

    I know what I meant, and how I said it. You're trying to read into my thoughts and opinions on the matter, beyond what's written.

    I don't really know why you're being so hostile to me. I mean I get it, I posted an opinion on the interwebs that wasn't yours.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  13. #173
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Some epic backpedaling here.

    We went from, "The Horde has shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted when it comes down to it." to "Well, I guess they just bit off more than they could chew and were forced to retreat."
    Those statements are more or less two sides of the same coin. A better statement would be

    The Horde has shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted, because they routinely let pride, honor, and arrogance supersede sound judgement, resulting in common failure and the collapse of forces.

    Regardless, I stand by both statements I made. I was trying to rework my thoughts since you weren't getting it.

    Also, try to quote me, not yourself, when replying. Your strawmanning is coming through hard. Reworking several paragraphs into a short sentence that is easy to argue against and dismiss is pretty much textbook. (Inb4 the first quote was from me)
    Last edited by Actarius; 2016-08-29 at 09:49 PM.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  14. #174
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not really two sides of the same coin at all, it's a pretty clear backpedal.

    Besides, it's not specifically the Horde's fault in the first place. The entire plan was obviously risky, and Gul'dan clearly had far more force at his disposal than either faction counted on. Claiming that somehow the Horde caused the entire mess due to "pride" is nonsensical and makes it sound like you didn't even pay attention to what was on your screen.
    I know it's not the Horde's fault.... I literally said "The Horde did nothing wrong, they retreated when the going got tough. It's really Varian's fault, he trusted the Horde"

    Yes the plan was immensely risky, I agree, but I believe Varian overestimated the Horde's forces and underestimated Gul'dan's. Again, I don't think it's the Horde's fault, nor did I claim it was. I said it was Varian's. The Horde would never pass up this kind of opportunity to showcase their glory. You cannot count on them to be level headed and objective. That needed to fall to the Human Kingdom of Stormwind, who grossly miscalculated both their forces and their enemies'. Maybe you thought I was satirically poking fun at the Horde? After rereading I see how that could have been possible. I was serious in my initial statement, what happened on the Broken Shore was due to Varian placing too much faith and trust in the Horde. This is not intrinsically the Horde's fault. Varian knows how they are and how they act, he should've known that the Horde was weaker than they lead on, along with knowing that they couldn't reliably protect the Alliance's forces. He was the High King of the Alliance, and was the spearhead for this assault. Any and all failures rest alongside him in his grave.

    You don't blame anti-air support if the commanding General failed to make sure they were protected and adequately staffed to do their job.

    You don't blame the Horde for Varian's miscalculations.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  15. #175
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    It's really Varian's fault, he trusted the Horde"
    I think this stems from phrasing, to some it might sound like you are still trying to subtly attack the Horde. But The argument should be cleared up when you later say.

    but I believe Varian overestimated the Horde's forces and underestimated Gul'dan's
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  16. #176
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Actarius View Post
    You don't blame the Horde for Varian's miscalculations. [/FONT]
    Varian didn't actually miscalculate anything, though - nor did the Horde. The Broken Shore was a Legion trap from the beginning, designed to bring both factions into the maw and crush them. Except for a few notable survivors it did exactly as it was meant to do, as well. The faction fallout also serves the Legion's designs, setting them against one another and preventing a coordinated defense of Azeroth.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #177
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    We could maybe blame...SI:7? Scouts? Farseers? Something, I dunno. The Fog of War is most to blame, if anything.
    Detheroc took control of SI:7
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigby View Post
    She may not have ordered the Wrath Gate, but considering most of Vanilla's Forsaken questing involved creating the plague in the first place, in her name, under her orders, it's not a case of 'if' Sylvanas would or wanted to use it so much as 'when' it's just Putress jumped the gun on doing it because of his masters.
    And if you had any understanding of what warcraft world was like between TFT and Wrath you'd understand the valid reason WHY the plague was created. The hwole point of the plague was to stop the dead becoming your enemy. What was the point of killing alliance troops (or scarlets) that came into your lands, or areas near scourge control if within 5s of them being killed Arthas just upped and raised them into his own near infinite army?

  19. #179
    Stood in the Fire Actarius's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Newport Beach, CA
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Essentially, yes. The initial phrasing suggested that somehow the Horde was either a bunch of untrustworthy miscreants OR a bunch of overconfident buffoons that borked everything up.

    The last post clears things up a lot more, though I don't think it's fair to blame Varian, either. Both sides made their preparations, planned according to the information they had at the time, and Gul'dans' forces proved far stronger than anyone anticipated. We could maybe blame...SI:7? Scouts? Farseers? Something, I dunno. The Fog of War is most to blame, if anything.
    You could argue that no one is to blame, but I find that harder to swallow. We're talking about the potential destruction of all the great heroes Azeroth has, which would essentially mean the destruction of Azeroth, and it's hard to attribute that fault to no one.

    No single component is to blame, the ground forces were probably too bolstered, clearly the ridge needed more help. It wasn't until the ridge was lost that the day had fallen. The forces should've fallen back sooner, especially after Tirion. If anything, they did not bring enough initial oomph with them. No siege weapons, air support, ships (they were close enough to at least provide some support). Sylvanas has her plague bats. The Alliance has great flying forces. They failed to rally any neutral races like dragons, elementals, forces of Ulduar, Scourge, Goblins, etc. All of those have a lot to lose if the Horde and Alliance cannot defend Azeroth. Surely some would've rose to arms.

    But I look at what I just wrote, and who made the decision to not do any of that? To just rush in with ground forces and champions? The spearhead, King Varian. He chose to attack with what they had, and it was not enough. To stand against the might of the Burning Legion without all the force you can muster? The last time they attacked, the entirety of the World Tree was destroyed and the night elves lost their immortality to win the battle. I can't imagine him believing a simple ground assault would be enough, and that's why I blame him.

    Scrub Resto Druid Trying to Make a Difference

  20. #180
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Epic Premium
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    45,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Actarius View Post
    But I look at what I just wrote, and who made the decision to not do any of that? To just rush in with ground forces and champions? The spearhead, King Varian. He chose to attack with what they had, and it was not enough. To stand against the might of the Burning Legion without all the force you can muster? The last time they attacked, the entirety of the World Tree was destroyed and the night elves lost their immortality to win the battle. I can't imagine him believing a simple ground assault would be enough, and that's why I blame him.
    I won't fault your feelings on the matter, but I think Varian and Vol'jin made the mistake based on faulty intelligence (in this case due to the leader of SI:7, Matthias Shaw, currently being impersonated by the Dreadlord Detheroc). They likely thought the Broken Shore was a minor Legion beachhead, a prelude to the primary invasion that if they could shut down would also scuttle the Legion's overall plans. But it wasn't a simple beachhead, they instead went head-long into an established foothold against a foe who knew their plans, knew their stratagems, and was fully prepared to crush them under foot. Perhaps the arrogance was in staying after killing Azgalor and seeing exactly how entrenched the Legion truly was before rushing in - that's certainly a way to see it. But I think the main thrust is that they were purposefully misled and betrayed from within.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •