Al leaders made esentially the same decision at Broken Shore.

[Florena]

Would you care to provide an example of this that isn't a total asspull, seeing as you seem to think that this is a routine occurrance in the horde, that the alliance is somehow equally free from? Cause I guarantee you, pretty much every single example I imagine you are going to cite, could easily be counter pointed by a shining example of equal arrogance / stupidity / machismo from the Alliance that somehow get glossed over every time we bring them up.

- - - Updated - - -


Not only that, but I am pretty sure from what I remember of the vanilla plague related quest lines that the overall goal she had tasked the Royal Apothecary Society with was to create a strain of the plague that actually only targeted scourge undead, whereby she could effectively turn Arthas' own weapon against him by turning it into something that would destroy his forces and permanently render them un-recoverable.

From what I remember the forsaken plague was always intended to kill the living AND undead since they had plenty of living enemies like the crusade even before the faction war heated up.

[Kallisto]

I agree, definitely no berzerking or frothing going on here. Considering how we are talking about Orcs in Warcraft, it simply says "we win or we die" similar to the Spartan "come back with your shield, or on it" (implying that you not throw your shield away while retreating)

Berzerk? nope, that was never part of "victory or death"

Keep in mind, I am not arguing that the Horde wasnt being overrun, I am not arguing that the Horde shouldnt have retreated. I am simply stating that they were all "lok'tar Ogar" until it was time to do "lok'tar Ogar".

But it has been confirmed time and again that A) Loktar Ogar is Orcs only and B) Means absolutely nothing when it comes to battles and means in overall wars. In essence it's ok to lose a battle or retreat with honour intact if it leads to victory in war.

- - - Updated - - -

From what I remember the forsaken plague was always intended to kill the living AND undead since they had plenty of living enemies like the crusade even before the faction war heated up.

Yes but the goal wasn't for genocide but more because everywhere around her was too close to the Scourge. The Forsaken could not afford a clean kill and forget. It would make too many enemies

[steelballfc]

People need to ditch the Hollywoodesque idea that field commanders shout orders or sent messengers to report each decision. Romans, for example, had different types of horns for different types of field orders.

I think the only other types of signals are Flags and flames

- - - Updated - - -

"Victory or death" It doesn't mean stupid like what Garrosh twisted it to. Dying with no purpose doesn't apply to Lok'tar ogar.

The Entire Horde isn't Warsong Orcs From the Kor'kron.

The Situation of the Broken Shore doesn't even apply Loktar'ogar to it because there was no chance of winning.

*clap clap*
here is a bag of cookie as a we reward

[GrimDesign]

So basically you can't accept that they don't believe in Victory or death when victory isnt an option.

No, I am suggesting that the vaunted Horde isn't all its cracked up to be. If Victory wasn't an option, then they shouldn't have been there to begin with. If you want to say "they had no choice" or something along those lines then the horde would have fought to the death ergo Lok'tar Ogar.

The analogy still holds. Find me a warrior culture whose notion of "victory or death" means... mindlessly beating one's self to death against the first sign of resistance, because to withdraw and come up with a plan for ultimate victory would be cowardice.

You won't be able to, because if there ever was such an ethos, it died out the first time it went into battle with a foe of equal quality.

As I mentioned earlier: Samurai and the Spartans, although I would argue that all warrior cultures died out a while ago

So, right back where we started -- "Lok'tar Ogar" strawman argument, that it means "never show any discretion, wisdom, or ability to learn -- the first time you run up against a problem in battle, you are obligated to DIE right then and there because trying to get a better shot at the problem is defeat and cowardice. Nonsense, inane nonsense.

You are adding an asterisk that fundamentally changes the spirit and wording of the motto "lok'tar ogar" that isnt a strawman argument (I don't think that means what you think it means). It means Victory or death, that's it. Not "Victory unless there is no chance of Victory, the other bastard next to me can die".

There is no asterisk.

Thats like saying "FOR THE HORDE*"


*unless I dont feel like it

[steelballfc]

many armies has this quote "victory or Death" , this doesn't mean that in hopeless case all those soldiers will die for nothing, live to fight another day, also retreat is full section in war-strategy.

[Mehrunes]

Even the most Lok'tar Orc to recently Ogar, i.e. Garrosh, retreated multiple times. As quests in Barrens and other places suggest, on top of their history with Ogres we've seen focus on in WoD, Orcs see submission and surrender to be dishonorable. "We will never be slaves" and all that stuff. Even if to reach victory you have to retreat and achieve it through a thousand cuts instead of finishing things in one glorious battle.

And it's an Orc warcry. In the Isle of Thunder Lor'themar decided to end the cycle and stop fighting Jaina. They are not bound by Lok'tar Ogar.

Technically, Lok'tar Ogar is included in the Blood Oath of the Horde. It even specifically mentions being bound by these words.

[Xilurm]

How lame is that Thrall just passed out tho.... Thrall...

[steelballfc]

How lame is that Thrall just passed out tho.... Thrall...

Thrall s getting back seat in coming years

[Zulkhan]

It's actually in the Blood Oath of the Horde, that every member of the Horde takes.

Funny that you quote the Blood Oath, because the second line of the Oath basically binds you to the Warchief's will. Sylvanas carried a retreat ordered by the Warchief himself.

In other words, retreating wasn't a choice for all the Horde soldiers involved at the Broken Shore, carrying it on was a duty.

In Wolfheart Garrosh even retreated from Ashenvale because they were losing.

Likewise, he later carried a tactical retreat at the end of Tides of War. He even points out to Baine that such retreat was made for strategic purposes only, not to "surrender" to the "power" of the Alliance.

You can use the same exact wording for the Broken Shore scenario, just put "Legion" instead of "Alliance".

[Deleted]

Funny that you quote the Blood Oath, because the second line of the Oath basically binds you to the Warchief's will. Sylvanas carried a retreat ordered by the Warchief himself.

In other words, retreating wasn't a choice for all the Horde soldiers involved at the Broken Shore, carrying it on was a duty.



Likewise, he later carried a tactical retreat at the end of Tides of War. He even points out to Baine that such retreat was made for strategic purposes only, not to "surrender" to the "power" of the Alliance.

You can use the same exact wording for the Broken Shore scenario, just put "Legion" instead of "Alliance".

The argument was about whether "victory or death" is an orc thing. It's not, it's a Horde thing.

[Deleted]

Likewise, he later carried a tactical retreat at the end of Tides of War. He even points out to Baine that such retreat was made for strategic purposes only, not to "surrender" to the "power" of the Alliance.

You can use the same exact wording for the Broken Shore scenario, just put "Legion" instead of "Alliance".

But but but ... That won't fit in my narrative of Horde are traitors and cowards, mehn!

[steelballfc]

Funny that you quote the Blood Oath, because the second line of the Oath basically binds you to the Warchief's will. Sylvanas carried a retreat ordered by the Warchief himself.

In other words, retreating wasn't a choice for all the Horde soldiers involved at the Broken Shore, carrying it on was a duty.

despite I gave you plenty of cookies before, but you earned this one.
here's a chocolate cookie

- - - Updated - - -

But but but ... That won't fit in my narrative of Horde are traitors and cowards, mehn!

*how I imagine alliance fan-bias *

[Deleted]

Oh I see. Then again, it's undeniable that Orcs alone are the ones used to shout that motto, because the mere habit and wording is strictly tied to their culture.

But other Horde races as well as some Alliance ones live by that very ideology anyway, regardless of what they shout. Just look at Blood Elves, they will never shout "Lok'tar Ogar" but many of them (rangers especially) are shown to gladly prefer death over submission, meaning they actually follow that ideology but without using words belonging to a culture that is not their own.

Orcs are simply the race that stress this way of thinking with a motivational motto because their whole history and culture is based on a strong despise for slavery and submission and how much "dishonorable" is giving up to them.

And yet they run away like little cowards. So again I have to ask, what happened to victory or death?

[Zulkhan]

The argument was about whether "victory or death" is an orc thing. It's not, it's a Horde thing.

Oh I see. Then again, it's undeniable that Orcs alone are the ones used to shout that motto, because the mere habit and wording is strictly tied to their culture.

But other Horde races as well as some Alliance ones live by that very ideology anyway, regardless of what they shout. Just look at Blood Elves, they will never shout "Lok'tar Ogar" but many of them (rangers especially) are shown to gladly prefer death over submission, meaning they actually follow that ideology but without using words belonging to a culture that is not their own.

Orcs are simply the race that stress this way of thinking with a motivational motto because their whole history and culture is based on a strong despise for slavery and submission and how much "dishonorable" is giving up to them.

- - - Updated - - -

despite I gave you plenty of cookies before, but you earned this one.
here's a chocolate cookie

Tank ya mon. *nom nom nom*

- - - Updated - - -

And yet they run away like little cowards. So again I have to ask, what happened to victory or death?

The Warchief ordered so. You're supposed to do what he commands. The Blood Oath says that.

Also, read my other post in this page. I have no intention to repeat myself.

P.S. fucking repost.

[caervek]

IMO Blizzard missed a major trick with broken shore, instead of pointlessly wasting Varian immediately after having him survive a near death cinematic they should instead have had Mekkatorque dive off the ship and shoryuken then Fel Reaver. That way the alliance still lose one of their kings, Varian can join Jaina/Genn in the brooding dynamic while Anduin/Malf/Tyrande/Velan try to promote friendship. You basically get all the benefits of killing off Varian with none of the drawbacks.

Add to that it would have actually made a non-human alliance race feel really important if only for a brief moment, plus Mekkatorque's run at Gul'Dan would have been pretty epic, bailing out of the mech suit once a demon crippled it, etc. Hell he could have used an engineering explosive to take Gul'Dan with him and it would have advanced the plot and thrown in an epic twist (mainly not having to fight the same villain across two expansions, that was one of WoDs failings).

[Deleted]

No, the leaders did not make the same decision.

Varian asked Gelbin to call in the air support and signal Sylvannas to help clear the skies. He wanted to go further in and destroy the portal.

Sylvannas signalled the retreat because she saw that the Horde was getting overwhelmed. However, essentially Genn is right to believe the Horde abandoned the Alliance because:
The Horde had the upper ledge. The Alliance could not see what the Horde was fighting.
By giving up the upper ledge before the guys under it are announced to retreat (in this case the Alliance forces being down) it means you're allowing the enemy (the Legion) access to a better position to destroy the forces under the ledge as they have the upper ground. Essentially, if the Skyship had not gotten there in time, all the Alliance forces would have been slaughtered, as due to Sylvannas's retreat they no longer had any chance to retreat themselves otherwise.

Essentially what should have been done, what a good commander should have done is signal the retreat for the troops under the ledge (for the Alliance troops in this case) and give them a few minutes to at least realize what was happening then signal the retreat for her forces. By retreating first she ensured the Alliance forces would be encircled by an enemy that also has the upper ground. This is a terrible tactic.
Would more Horde warriors have died? Yes. A few more would have died but this would have ensured that the entire Alliance force retreated properly. In the war against the the Legion it doesn't matter that a few more warriors die if a considerable force is saved. Sylvannas only thought of the Horde, she didn't think of the Alliance-Horde force as one army, but two, and completely ignored the ally of the Horde in this conflict, the Alliance.

The Alliance only decided to retreat after they had been surrounded.

[GrimDesign]

It means you don't surrender in the war against the Legion, that you will keep fighting battle after battle instead of joining the Legion.
Even Garrosh said its about the war, not a single battle.

Ashenvale is a good example.
They lost, they had to retreat from the battle.
First thing they do next is prepare for another attack.

And it's an Orc warcry. In the Isle of Thunder Lor'themar decided to end the cycle and stop fighting Jaina. They are not bound by Lok'tar Ogar.

Something about that statement rings hollow for me but its a premise I can accept for the moment.

Oh I see. Then again, it's undeniable that Orcs alone are the ones used to shout that motto, because the mere habit and wording is strictly tied to their culture.

But other Horde races as well as some Alliance ones live by that very ideology anyway, regardless of what they shout. Just look at Blood Elves, they will never shout "Lok'tar Ogar" but many of them (rangers especially) are shown to gladly prefer death over submission, meaning they actually follow that ideology but without using words belonging to a culture that is not their own.

Orcs are simply the race that stress this way of thinking with a motivational motto because their whole history and culture is based on a strong despise for slavery and submission and how much "dishonorable" is giving up to them.

I subscribe to this theory!

[Deleted]

I think the only other types of signals are Flags and flames

Even flags and flames weren't that reliable in battles, mainly because of visibility and weather conditions.

[Symphonic]

As alliance, I welcome horde into Dalaran. Jaina can eat it and die in the nether, like the demon she truly is.

[Pantomime]

Sorry man, but no. For everything that Sylvanas and Jaina have suffered through in their lives, and all the various assorted tragedies they have witnessed and lived through, Sylvanas is by far the more rational one with the more properly fleshed out and reasonable goals and motivations. Jaina has pretty much gone completely off the deep end and turned into a raging psycho bitch with a near psychotic level hate-on for the entire horde based almost purely on either things she isnt seeing the whole picture of, or things that the horde as a whole are not responsible for.

I mean, even during the Council meeting she is still blaming the horde, collectively, for Theramore, when we almost literally JUST got through a bloody civil war inside the Horde, and even after suffering through that, still managed to field forces to protect Azeroth collectively along with the alliance from the Iron Horde.... Its like she just sticks her fingers in her ears and goes "lalalalalalala" and completely ignores the fact that we basically cleaned house on the very tyrant responsable for the Theramore incident because we couldn't stand him either.

Sorry to say, but Jaina is a whole other level of crazy when compared to Sylvanas.

It's even beyond that for me. While saying she was neutral she actively cultivated a military force right on Orgrimmar's doorstep, built a military staging and supply route right past Org...to the Nightelves who she'd actively recruited to the alliance to fight the Horde. And finally, after she'd started garrisoning Alliance troops in her neutral town Garrosh wiped them out while limiting danger to his own people; and she got mad. Garrosh did a ton of indefensible stuff, this shouldn't be on that list, and Jaina can't get enough shit imo.