What is Sylvanas doing in the Stormheim cinematic?

[Disreali]

Death magic and resurrection exist in the Warcraft universe. So do demons though, and Rise of the Horde makes it clear that they're unnatural.

[Deleted]

Technically the Forsaken do exist in the natural order:

I indeed think that the Forsakens have a right to exist as much as any other races. They have free will.

However, this desire clashes with the will of the livings who, quite understandably, don't want to be killed, which makes the problem hard to solve...

One solution would be to find a "cure" for undeath, but that would raise other questions.

[Mehrunes]

You assume she could have.
The point to all of that was Sylvanas thinking she had overestimated Genn. She didn't. She underestimated him. As much as Sylvy fans want to claim she's this master tactician?

What does 1 on 1 combat have to do with being a tactician?

People need to stop pretending Slyvanas is some super OP character. She's not anywhere near the level of a lot of characters. She makes up for that by scheming.

Still leaps and bounds ahead most racial leaders.

She was in shock from her plan being ruined. Imagine how hopeful she felt when she realized it was possible to obtain immortality. Then she has to watch to slip away from her. How many times is she going to come across a way to obtain immortality? What happens to her once she dies for real? Yeah, that's why she wasn't that focused on Greymane.

The thing is, when something doesn't go Sylvanas' way, she tends to rage. She ripped animals to shreds with her hands when Vereesa decided not to move to Undercity in the end. I mean, sure, at first she should have been concerned with Eyir attacking her, but after she ported she should have been her raging self.

And what about the plague and resurrecting people against their will? One of which basically went through a massive depressive episode and ended up killing themselves again? The Gilnean war? Torturing Koltira for years because he wasn't a big enough douche to Thassarian and The Alliance?

Weapon. Offers a choice. Forced to and nothing special in terms of war anyway. Unconfirmed what she's done to Koltira and the reason he was punished was because he was a traitor that cost Forsaken lives and should be happy he wasn't executed.

*sigh*

Just some notes for people new to this subforum:

a.) They will not acknowledge Gilneas. They will hide behind Garrosh. And ignore, or even excuse, the fact that she used WMDs even forbidden by HIM.

And provided by him. And so weak it didn't slow the Worgen down. Dat mass destruction. Other than mass destruction, what of Gilneas. Yay, it happened, here's your acknowledgment. Wars happen, huge discovery. Jaina attacked the Horde first and yet you get triggered every time someone criticizes her spewing the same trite bullshit of "hurr durr, Horde players hate consequences". Which not only is bullshit given her attacking first, but also bullshit because Rogers or, you know, Genn, aren't as criticized when they are even more anti-Horde.

b.) Because the Forsaken cannot procreate then its just all fair game. Its irrelevant how its done or why, its just ok if she does it because she needs troops. Mealy-mouthed arguments and twisting of words of the devs will be used to explain away killing people, resurrecting them, and then "charming" (Which isn't mind control because...reasons) to fight their former allies they were just immediately fighting alongside.

Weirdly enough the dev reply said nothing about charming. And started with "free will is one of the cornerstones of the Forsaken culture". One would imagine that if the question was "do the Forsaken mind control people" and they did mind control people a single yes would suffice and we wouldn't get a long explanation on what exactly happened in Andorhal. The one twisting the words of the devs is you and for some inane reason in your brilliant mind you've created some fantasy that you're the grand champion of truth and justice bullied by the evil MMO-C lore forum.

c.) Koltira deserved mind-wiping/torture/re-education/mind-control for the heinous crime of telling the other faction's general, "We both took pretty bad losses against the Scourge, let's have a ceasefire for now." Even after both generals acknowledge they will bring their full might against one another with no regard for their former camaraderie.

A ceasefire that backfired on the Forsaken, cost Forsaken lives and that Koltira was not authorized to make not being a diplomat. What Koltira was, was a military commander. Who had clear orders from his higher up and did something else because he's a friend with the enemy commander.

d.) Everything done during Wrath or Cataclysm, such as using WMDs, expeimenting and torturing people, and invading neutral nations, is ok because they were at War.

Just a cheat sheet for ya so you don't waste your time.

I have yet to see someone saying the experimenting and torturing was fine and dandy or you providing an example after being asked to do so numerous times.

Like I said^

List is made for y'all new folks so you don't waste time on nonsense like that.

Because you're obviously a bastion of reason, lack of bias and levelheadness when it comes to the topic of Sylvanas

[KrazyK923]

The actual definition of sperging in action ^

I love how triggered the SDF has gotten when everyone can see what their waifu really is now.

Culminating with a lulzy attempt to say a real-time reaction to a cinematic in the game somehow represents the entirety of a person's mindset about a character.

Thanks for the ad rev though. I'm going back to ignoring you now

[Mehrunes]

Wasn't the issue that the cease fire favored the alliance more because undead don't tire out or something?

You mean in-game or from the perspective of the omniscient players? I don't recall much being said about the ceasefire in quests other than Sylvanas complaining that Koltira is a moron. OOG, yeah, I guess giving the humans a moment of reprieve would be more beneficial to them than it was to the Forsaken, but the main problem with the truce is that Alliance broke it first and caught Koltira with his pants down because he didn't expect that nor did he prepare for such an opportunity.

[Magnagarde]

What she always does - look for ways to keep herself immortal and among the living, no matter the cost or life lost due to her actions. She tried to chain the queen of Val'kyr and submit her to her will, but Genn helped the Val'kyr queen free herself.

There goes the fanboy story about Sylvanas having changed and not being self-centered. She was more self-centered than ever after Arthas' fall, but Greymane grounded her. This loss ought to bring her back to her sense and the realization that she must not destroy the cycle of life and undeath.

[Mehrunes]

I'm not interested in making her out to be worse than she is.
It's just that I find her experimentation on humans, her role in an unprovoked attack against a then-neutral nation, her taking advantage of the confusion of recently risen farmers to turn against their comrades, and her attempts to enslave a sentient being to grant her practical immortality to push her past the line of redemption in my eyes.

I actually like Throren's theory from page one about Sylvanas wanting to take Eyir's power for herself. But I'd like it in completely literal sense. With her track record of subordinates doing stupid shit having someone as powerful as Eyir around against her will sounds like a bad plan (then again it depends on the power of the lantern, Helya was extremely talented sorceress even back when she was a Vrykul and she has lots of experience in fucking Odyn over). The downside is the idea of Sylvanas sprouting glowing wings which gives me Kerrigan flashbacks.

[Deleted]

What she always does - look for ways to keep herself immortal and among the living, no matter the cost or life lost due to her actions. She tried to chain the queen of Val'kyr and submit her to her will, but Genn helped the Val'kyr queen free herself.

There goes the fanboy story about Sylvanas having changed and not being self-centered. She was more self-centered than ever after Arthas' fall, but Greymane grounded her. This loss ought to bring her back to her sense and the realization that she must not destroy the cycle of life and undeath.

If it turns out that the original Val'kyr used to be undead that were brought back to life as Val'kyr then why don't we help Sylvanas and the Forsaken to turn into Val'kyr so that we can get over this argument, because I am tired of hearing "her actions are justified" all the time

[KrazyK923]

If it turns out that the original Val'kyr used to be undead that were brought back to life as Val'kyr then why don't we help Sylvanas and the Forsaken to turn into Val'kyr so that we can get over this argument, because I am tired of hearing "her actions are justified" all the time

It doesn't seem like Sylvanas actually wants that.

She specifically says in the cinematic that the Val'kyr themselves belong to her. I guess that could be a roundabout way of saying "I want to become one" or something (And I could actually see them doing that to give her some nonsensical redemption like Illidan and Kerrigan), but from just the cinematic and the Stormheim quests it seems as if she just wants to be able to have as many Val'kyr as possible.

[Magnagarde]

Graymane potentially(and very, very likely) saved Azeroth from the next major villain by destroying her grip over the Val'kyr queen. There was no telling how big of an undead army she would have created from dead humans and elves. There was no telling how many other ethical barriers she would've broken and crossed, even though there remained few she already did not(ie unprovoked aggression, invasion, killing of innocents, conquering of foreign land, raising the un

Greymane - who ultimately defied the Alliance of Lordaeron - did the kingdoms of Lordaeron, Stromgarde, Gilneas and Quel'thalas the biggest service any Alliance character had done so far in WoW.

[Mehrunes]

I indeed think that the Forsakens have a right to exist as much as any other races. They have free will.

However, this desire clashes with the will of the livings who, quite understandably, don't want to be killed, which makes the problem hard to solve...

One solution would be to find a "cure" for undeath, but that would raise other questions.

And the Forsaken don't have a need to kill. They are fine isolated in Lordaeron for the most part. Also, even back in Cataclysm most of their new recruits came from already existing graveyards.

The actual definition of sperging in action ^

Yes, pointing out how your idea that the dev reply didn't say what it did is a crock of shit is "sperging in action". But why actually address something. We all know it's beyond your capabilities. All you ever do is regurgitate the same trite bulslhit over and over again without actually paying attention to the thread just so you can hear your (simply amazing) points once more, then when enough people correct your nonsense you flail your hands in the air, scream TEH CIRCLEJERK IS HERE and run away like a child.

Culminating with a lulzy attempt to say a real-time reaction to a cinematic in the game somehow represents the entirety of a person's mindset about a character.

Yeah, because that doesn't correlate at all with the seizure worthy drivel you always write when talking about her Look at all that lack of bias in your posts. Especially the (totally not) denying Word of God. Still waiting for that example of posters saying Sylvanas dindu nuffin or excusing the torture and experimentation by the way. I mean, with you usually being a level headed and not intellectually dishonest as fuck pristine paragon of a poster it shouldn't be that hard.

[bufferunderrun]

you'd help killing your own warchief, which would be the last thing the horde needs atm.

first and foremost she isn't my warchief, my characters are horde aligned just because game mechanic established by blizzard dictate so, if not i would have already murdered any forsaken from andhoral to thoradin's wall.
Second what she did was to go on a quest to gain immortality so nothing to do with the horde same crap with garrosh and that mogu bell.
Last she plagued the wildlife in stormheim and (that as i'm playing hunter) that is a big crime.

so in the end i would have liked to kill her by firing an arrow in her back during the fight with Genn.

[Bethanie]

Considering that it was an Alliance leader, Graymane, that saved the Queen of the Val'kyr, perhaps they would be willing to engage in some form of future cooperation. It would be quite the kicker if it was Genn that was rewarded with immortality instead of Sylvanas. Though I would imagine if possible he would use that gift on his son.

Or perhaps Val'kyr could be the next Alliance playable race , and we could have an expansion where Gilneas invades Lordaeron and starts raising the Forsaken back into true life. It would be an amusing twist if when the undead fall in battle they get raised as humans again.

[Mehrunes]

first and foremost she isn't my warchief, my characters are horde aligned just because game mechanic established by blizzard dictate so, if not i would have already murdered any forsaken from andhoral to thoradin's wall.

Technically speaking, not a lot of Forsaken outposts between Andorhal and Thoradin's Wall. None even, if you take the most direct land route.

[KrazyK923]

Considering that it was an Alliance leader, Graymane, that saved the Queen of the Val'kyr, perhaps they would be willing to engage in some form of future cooperation.

At the very least it is strange that the Alliance characters in the Halls of Valor are treated with the same level of scorn as the Horde players the last time I did it on the beta (about a month ago). Not sure if its still the same on live, but it always irked me.

Maybe Eyir doesn't care because they were all mortals anyway, but you would have thought the distinction should have been made. Even something as small as a single different sentence introduction to the boss where Eyir is watching. They've done it plenty of times before. Wouldn't even have to be a friendly statement, but something like:

"Heroes. Thank you for your help in the Vault earlier, however Hyrja is my chosen. A warrior without equal and soon, one of Odyn's greatest Val'kyr! YOU are her final test."

[Traveler Voltin]

first and foremost she isn't my warchief, my characters are horde aligned just because game mechanic established by blizzard dictate so, if not i would have already murdered any forsaken from andhoral to thoradin's wall.
Second what she did was to go on a quest to gain immortality so nothing to do with the horde same crap with garrosh and that mogu bell.
Last she plagued the wildlife in stormheim and (that as i'm playing hunter) that is a big crime.

so in the end i would have liked to kill her by firing an arrow in her back during the fight with Genn.

if my memory of beta spoilers are still right(and if they didnt change it)
the plague in stormheim was caused by the alliance destroying a forsaken ship.
and that its being cleaned up.

[Disreali]

I actually like Throren's theory from page one about Sylvanas wanting to take Eyir's power for herself. But I'd like it in completely literal sense. With her track record of subordinates doing stupid shit having someone as powerful as Eyir around against her will sounds like a bad plan (then again it depends on the power of the lantern, Helya was extremely talented sorceress even back when she was a Vrykul and she has lots of experience in fucking Odyn over). The downside is the idea of Sylvanas sprouting glowing wings which gives me Kerrigan flashbacks.

That's one way to look at it (though it's very headcanon-y at the moment).
It just doesn't do anything to "redeem" her in my eyes.

Look, Sylvy fans. I agree with you that she's not "evil" in the sense that the Legion or Lich King was.
That being said...every morally questionable thing you admit can be laid at her feet? That makes her a character beyond redemption in my eyes. I'm not making her to be worse than she is. I'm saying that her as-is is bad enough.

[Magnagarde]

Considering that it was an Alliance leader, Graymane, that saved the Queen of the Val'kyr, perhaps they would be willing to engage in some form of future cooperation. It would be quite the kicker if it was Genn that was rewarded with immortality instead of Sylvanas. Though I would imagine if possible he would use that gift on his son.

Or perhaps Val'kyr could be the next Alliance playable race , and we could have an expansion where Gilneas invades Lordaeron and starts raising the Forsaken back into true life. It would be an amusing twist if when the undead fall in battle they get raised as humans again.

The Val'kyr should stay out of the business of the Alliance and the Horde, but they should work in undoing what Sylvanas had her Val'kyr do and that is raise fallen Alliance men and women into her ranks. After the damage gets undone, they should stay out of the factions' business for good.

[Disreali]

And the Forsaken don't have a need to kill. They are fine isolated in Lordaeron for the most part. Also, even back in Cataclysm most of their new recruits came from already existing graveyards.

Stromgarde wasn't part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, and she had designs on that.

[Zulkhan]

All this arguing is interesting but we're missing the most important question here: for which hellish reason Genn goes around half-naked?