How can people say now that Sylvanas isnt evil ?

[Mehrunes]

He also has pretty much declared war against the horde.

The intro to Stormheim already suffices.

Don't worry fixed it!

Oh and how exactly isn't it MINDCONTROL that Sylvanas uses on newly risen Forsaken or Forsaken in general?
Related Quest is Rise, Forsaken - and there the yells of the newly risen Forsaken, which are from Human War-Refugees so the kind of people that really really REALLY don't like rotting stuff , Undead or Sylvanas.

Can someone explain?

CDevs already did years ago.

Because the devs and writers literally said it isn't mind control.

Hururur, they said the opposite you SDF shill. Krazy said so so it must be the truth. You need to gouge out your eyes and replace them with salt produced by the existence of Sylvanas for the words to appear that way, but her, pursuit of truth requires sacrifices.

[Magnagarde]

There is no point in trying to understand this phenomenon. People will say whatever they possibly can and hang onto tiny straws in order to make their arguement appear feasible.

When someone tells you its okay to raise the dead, to destroy nature and spread the plague, to invade others, to stitch abominations together from corpses in order to guard your occupied lands and then pretend that what they stated is anywhere near logical, then you know its best not to even reply or discuss things.

There are different people though; some simply like her character, but have no problem admitting that almost every single major thing that she had done so far in WoW was either villanous or selfish. It is reason as to why they find her character intriguing and interesting and there is absolutely nothing wrong about liking characters over their negative traits. Look at the Lich King; he is one of the Warcraft fans' all-time favourites.

It is those that argue against all logic that you should pay no attention to, really. You can easily recognize these people by seeing attempts at micromanaged reasoning in their posts. You got ample examples in this very thread.

[Viconia]

There is no point in trying to understand this phenomenon. People will say whatever they possibly can and hang onto tiny straws in order to make their arguement appear feasible.

When someone tells you its okay to raise the dead, to destroy nature and spread the plague, to invade others, to stitch abominations together from corpses in order to guard your occupied lands and then pretend that what they stated is anywhere near logical, then you know its best not to even reply or discuss things.

Dat ego.

Understand that you're counting those things as bad, because you're bringing your own morals into the mix. But it's not you who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong; it's the subject. Those raised that join the Forsaken are content with the fact they were raised and abominations seem to be fine with it as well. They're not Thaddius, the corpses they are made of are just husks instead of sentient souls and the sentience an abomination has is a new one. All risen are free to choose what to do with themselves, so those who do not join the Forsaken are free to oppose them (in which case they should expect retaliation), go about their business, or return to True death if they so desire. At worst it's rude, like waking someone up who was sleeping soundly and seeing happy dreams. At best the Forsaken are saving people from Damnation and giving them a chance to change their fate (if such a thing is possible in Warcraft mythos).

As far as nature destroying goes, the Forsaken have mainly done it to their own land and they like it that way; the Argent Crusade or Cenarion Circle have no business to dictate how others manage their lands. Case Southshore happened during war time and the Forsaken haven't advanced further since Cataclysm; it seems the intention was to solidify their holdings and fortify the borders. That's done. Yes, the Blight is a horrible weapon and if Azeroth had a UN of their own it would certainly be prohibited. As would several other means of killing, like arcane explosions, fireballs etc.

What would count as crossing the line is mind control, which Sylvanas came dangerously close to in Stormheim. This is universally bad, because the subject can no longer dictate whether or not they're fine with it.

[Tripzzz]

They don't die in her place. And they already do that for people that Odyn, or whoever, deems as "heros". She just becomes a hero that gets put back on the material plane, instead of the Heroes Hall (which is pretty much WoW's version of Valhalla).

Not evil, just amoral.

The Val'kyr take her place in eternal damnation whenever she dies.

Sylvanas is evil. She is willing to enslave and torture sentient beings with no remorse(nothing new) for her own selfish gains.

It would be one thing if she felt sorry for her victims, but she doesnt give a fuck about them. And before you try to whitewash her by saying "she does it the ensure the survival of her people", explain to me how human slaves that went through medical torture is necessary for the Forsaken's survival. Not to mention living humans held in cages and getting experimented on.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Gerard_Abernathy

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Theresa

Gerard Abernathy says: "A little torture, a pinch of magic, and an ample helping of invasive surgery. She was conscious, of course."

Gerard Abernathy says: "A little ritual torture can go a long way."

[Thelxi]

As horde right before she tries to capture that valkyr queen she talks about how she worries about the future of her people. How they will eventually just waste away because they can't procreate. How people twisted that into an unforgivable selfish immortality quest that confirms she is evil beyond all doubt, idk.

[OpieOP]

/shrug Because they have moments of lucidity? or were not raised in the middle of battle?.

Well but wouldn't lucidity contradict the "battledrunk" they're risen in? I mean if the first thing they say is "what have you done to me" then they're surely not in a frenzied state. --- that is against their former people, I can't say that they wouldn't be frenzied against their new "employers".
Still part of the "Rise,Forsaken" Quest, so no they were raised "mid battle".

We've reached the special flower of arguments "Blizzard could change it so it would fit my argument" bravo.

/shrug You guys also like to select the phrases that fit your arguments best so I'm just here returning the favor.

Can you name me the leader who thought building a big expensive grave for his daddy was more important than feeding and housing his population that was in need?
At least she's doing all of this for her people.

Oh Hi! So you finally got to Westfall in the Cataclysm expansion? Seems like you're on a jolly good way to level up an Alliance character are you? If you need help, perhaps also in understanding the timeline just ask! I'll hook you up!

At least she's doing all of this for her people.

So, tell me. What exactly did she do in the chamber in Stormheim for her people? Besides trying to undermine another Force against the Legion?

Hururur, they said the opposite you SDF shill. Krazy said so so it must be the truth. You need to gouge out your eyes and replace them with salt produced by the existence of Sylvanas for the words to appear that way, but her, pursuit of truth requires sacrifices.

Wow... it really must have hurt you to read the word Mindcontrol in context with Sylvanas. I apologize it was not nice of me to write that word the way it stands there, I should have called it twisting the mind of other individuals or ensuring loyalty of individuals otherwise opposed to herself. I'll reconsider my wording next time.

And who is "Krazy" and what does he have to do with my post or was that just a namedrop of someone who you (so I guess) dont like?

[Magnagarde]

Dat ego.

Understand that you're counting those things as bad, because you're bringing your own morals into the mix. But it's not you who gets to decide what's right and what's wrong; it's the subject.

Those are not my morals; those are morals that are universally accepted as being good. There are morals that are universally accepted as good and morals that are universally accepted as bad. Morals that are universally accepted as being good are those that have righteoussness and preservation of life and nature embedded within actions that represent them. Morals that are universally accepted as being bad are all forms of necromancy, destruction of nature and life, invasion, occupation. You can personally believe that something is right, but it doesn't change the fact that it is universally wrong.

The post above is crystal-clear proof of what I've written above in regards to micromanaged responding. For instance, the person above claims that its okay to destroy nature on your own land, ignoring the fact that Sylvanas gave the order to do so as an undead high elf that has no claim on any inch of Lordaeron; not in her life, not in her undeath. When justifying their arguement, the people this thread addresses will do just as was done above; make a half-valid/invalid statement in response to a valid one. The half-valid responses will keep coming untill you start discussing the molecular structure of Sylvanas' body, where you will have to measure just how much carbon is left within her.

[Zuben]

Mind Control would be crossing the moral event horizon for Sylvanas, making her Villain-evil, so as long as she remains as she's been she's Dark Hero -evil.

[Tente]

Sylvanas is evil. She's the Warchief. I play Horde. I fucking love it.

Next?

Yes please !! i like you

[Tripzzz]

As horde right before she tries to capture that valkyr queen she talks about how she worries about the future of her people. How they will eventually just waste away because they can't procreate. How people twisted that into an unforgivable selfish immortality quest that confirms she is evil beyond all doubt, idk.

Forsaken supposedly can live forever if they take care of themselves. Why does Sylvanas think the forsaken will waste away? Just because she thinks that doesn't make it true.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I think Genn believes Sylvannas is pure evil and must be stopped. Based on his history with her (seeing Gilneas gassed), it's easy to understand why he might have a bias in this regard.

Personally, I absolutely agree that Sylvannas is at least one flavor of evil, and I would compare her Legion behavior to Illidan. Even when she's fighting your enemy, her methods aren't always something a good person would condone.

Warning: RP thoughts ahead
My Draenei paladin started off with the Stormheim quests, mostly because Anduin asked me to. He has reservations about the factional fighting when he knows we need to be united against the Legion. If there was an option in-game to try and reason with any of the Forsaken, he would explore it, since mindless bashing of skulls isn't how I normally play him. He knows there are good people among the Horde; heck some of them are in his order hall! But he also knows the Prophet sees something special in Anduin; Anduin is a paladin himself and asked me to be here, and now I'm in the thick of it and every Forsaken I see attacks me before I can initiate a conversation anyway. Sylvannas herself made no effort to help when I saw her before Helya. I understand her reluctance, but that sure would have turned things around if she had. So I'm left with battling my way through and hoping brighter times are ahead. Also hoping the factional in-fighting (and my participation in it) doesn't disrupt the unity in my class hall.

[Arrashi]

i'am on the horde side of the arguement but man Forsaken dudes...its hard to get people to focus on the legion when you go around eating the bodies of alliance soldiers after an air ship crash...

But they are delicious ! and fresh.

[Tripzzz]

You do know that without a proper solution they are destined to extinct?
That's the entire Forsaken-story after WotLK.

Mindcontrol is the use of magic to have others do things against their will.
It's a fact that this is not something the Forsaken do.
That's a Lich King/DK thing.

Forsaken live forever, how exactly are they destined to extinction?

The Forsaken do use mindcontrol. Theresa is a human living in undercity that has the title of "Gerard's Mindslave" after having medical torture performed on her while she was still conscious.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Gerard_Abernathy

Gerard Abernathy says: "A little torture, a pinch of magic, and an ample helping of invasive surgery. She was conscious, of course."

Gerard Abernathy says: "A little ritual torture can go a long way."

[Magnagarde]

In regards to the "mind control" discussion; Blizzard helped fuel this illogical setting. There was no other way they could make sense other than to say that the raised people willingly serve Sylvanas, otherwise the entire plot about free will would make no sense. Regardless of this attempt, Blizzard still came out as illogical as they tried to avoid to be.

Some of their employees on the storytelling team had a lush-enough imagination and enough logic to ask the rest... how will they justify this nonsense? The people that suffered the most against the undead, that died either fighting undeath or running from it are being raised into being undead, with the majority feeling the urge to chant "For the Dark Lady!", even though they never met her and even though she is totally meaningless to them, other than being the harbinger of their new curse. They came up with an ingenious idea of simply saying that its a dazzling feeling at the beginning and that later on everything is "cool". Literally and figuratively.

While discussing this, the storytelling team hoped deep, deep inside that everybody already forgot why the Forsaken joined the Horde in the first place. According to their lore, it was done on the behest of the tauren in order to find a cure for them. They were admitted into the Horde so a cure can be found for them, which automatically brands their condition as a sickness/curse in the opinion of the very Horde. The idea is that the Horde admitted the Forsaken into their faction in order to cure them. Isn't this noble? Its just so nice. This new Horde is totally the opposite of the previous one! But... aren't Forsaken continuing to create more and more and more of these creations the Horde wants to find a cure for. Let that sink in for a moment. "Come here, we will cure you! Keep making more of the things that we are finding a cure for though, its alright..." - thought every Horde leader in character to himself, basically. Every single one except the one they had to kill off.

When you wrap all of this up, you end up with the penultimate-ultimate irrationality of it all; Sylvanas very much dislikes what she has become. However, she has no problem whatsoever sharing the feeling she so very much dislikes with every human corpse she comes across. "What are we if not prisoners of this curse?" said Sylvanas Windrunner in a supposedly serious story and then helped imprison thousands of others in character. But hey, did you already forget that Blizzard said its a drunken feeling when you get ressurected and that is about it? Sylvanas should definitely not be angry at Arthas. He got her drunk and opted for a one-night stand.

[Tripzzz]

Because they can get killed.
And due to Alliance's plot armour they cannot bring back an already slain Undead.
Cause.. you know.. everyone is a Paladin or Priest

The developers said they don't use it, they made a post about it.
Pointing at a pop culture reference isn't a strong argument.

A pop culture reference that is still canon lore. It's a valid argument. The Forsaken do use mind control, we literally have an example of it happening.

The developers also said Falstad was dead. The developers also said "free will is a cornerstone of Forsaken culture" but you clearly saw Slyvanas subjugating Eyir against her will. Explain that.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

At least my Worgen has no mixed feelings on the subject. From the time back in the starter zone, when the Forsaken invaded, he hasn't cared one bit whether Sylvannas was "just following orders". And after he personally overheard her giving orders to use the gas? He'd kill her in a heartbeat, given the chance.

- - - Updated - - -

Because they can get killed.
And due to Alliance's plot armour they cannot bring back an already slain Undead.
Cause.. you know.. everyone is a Paladin or Priest

The developers said they don't use it, they made a post about it.
Pointing at a pop culture reference isn't a strong argument.

Except apparently those raised can be confused and turn on their friends and family in those first few minutes. And Sylvannas knows this before she raises them. She raises you knowing you may turn and kill your best friend before you know what you're doing. That alone is grounds for execution.

[Life-Binder]

The developers also said Falstad was dead. The developers also said "free will is a cornerstone of Forsaken culture" but you clearly saw Slyvanas subjugating Eyir against her will. Explain that.

Eyir isnt Forsaken

[Viconia]

Those are not my morals; those are morals that are universally accepted as being good. There are morals that are universally accepted as good and morals that are universally accepted as bad. Morals that are universally accepted as being good are those that have righteoussness and preservation of life and nature embedded within actions that represent them. Morals that are universally accepted as being bad are all forms of necromancy, destruction of nature and life, invasion, occupation. You can personally believe that something is right, but it doesn't change the fact that it is universally wrong.

By what authority do you state this? Because you sound similar to people arguing homosexuality is unnatural, emo goth is a wrong lifestyle and building a perverted artwork on your lot is sick. These are all real-world jumps and are about as relevant to Warcraft's universe as your stated "universal" morals. I support acceptance and tolerance, but that's because they form a world I find to my liking. I wouldn't call it right by divine edict, just what we as people have chosen and what happens to work well. Warcraft's universe works on its own system, even having systematic afterlife structures and different deities pushing different philosophies. The death system of the Vrykul was formed by something that can and has been killed (the Pantheon) and overseen by something said beings forged from materials like we would create robots.

The Forsaken by their very existence are wrong according to your "universal" morals, yet we know that's just not the case in Warcraft as Velen saw them being part of the Army of Light. Light itself accepts them. And yeah, we play as them if we so choose and we ultimately represent the good guys in Warcraft, even if we're playing an undead warlock. So you picking things you find foul, and yes, would likely be atrocious by our world's standards, is merely your bias. Stating things like anyone who thinks otherwise is invalid and what you spew is valid 'just because that's how it is', this is all your ego speaking.

[Mehrunes]

Wow... it really must have hurt you to read the word Mindcontrol in context with Sylvanas. I apologize it was not nice of me to write that word the way it stands there, I should have called it twisting the mind of other individuals or ensuring loyalty of individuals otherwise opposed to herself. I'll reconsider my wording next time.

And who is "Krazy" and what does he have to do with my post or was that just a namedrop of someone who you (so I guess) dont like?

Was I replying to you? No. Sono shit it didn't have to do with your post. You're not the only one to regurgitate the mind control bullshit, so sorry to rain down on your special snowflake status. And yes, seeing headcanon that was denied by the cdevs 4 or so years ago on forum dedicated to actual lore is annoying.

[caervek]

What part of making a deal will the lord of hell to enslave angels in exchange for immortality sounds evil to you? :P

But yes, that is evil, at least by D&D definitions of alignment.