Is ‘Yes Means Yes’ Unstoppable?

[Charge me Doctor]

ManWoman meets woman. Woman likes man woman. Woman and man woman have consensual sex. Woman regrets it the next day. ManWoman gets charged with rape.

Fixed that for fun.

I still don't get how this law can pass, it's an opposite of common sense and opposite of what law is supposed to be

[Mehrunes]

If it was specified before by the boyfriend that it is okay with him, then it is not rape. It would only be a rape if the boyfriend says, "Darling, I want to sleep, stop it", and she still keeps doing it.
If it was not, then the girl acts at her own risk. If the boyfriend doesn't want it, then the girl is raping him.

A really simple and obvious example. The fact that the situation is confusing to someone is quite alarming...

I.e. not affirmative consent.

It's a really easy example to make. It's only presented as confusing because a lot of guys go "hey, free blowjob, awesome". Change it to a sex act you WOULDN'T want to get woken up by, say her deciding to peg you with her strap-on. Or whatever. If that changes your viewpoint, then you understand the difference between you consenting to the act and you not consenting.

There's also difference to normal consenting when you're awake and consenting after the fact. Let's go by California affirmative consent since it's already been linked. Consent must be affirmative, conscious and voluntary. Other than your earlier example of a guy mentioning he wants it, all of these are missing if one is asleep. And what else does the affirmative consent require? Ah, yes, it must be "ongoing". "Ongoing throughout a sexual activity" even. So even if the guy goes "free blowjob, awesome", the consent wasn't ongoing because at the start of the sexual he was incapable of giving it and as such it was not ongoing throughout sexual activity, only the part when he was awake.

There is no burden of proof on the defendant. If the accuser fails to present evidence indicating that rape took place, then the accused can just dance around naked in the courtroom: he will win the process. Well, assuming unbiased judge, that is.

And yet American Law Institute said there is when you use affirmative consent.

[Sevyvia]

Here's a thought: don't rape anyone and you won't have anything to worry about. I know that can be confusing for some people...

Except that isn't what the above law is about. Or, rather, it's expanding the definition of sexual assault so far as to make it effectively meaningless.

[AeneasBK]

I think I get that the concept of making any sexual act, that didn't have a clear affirmative consent given, is made criminal by this idea, and that that is a bad thing. Fine. I'm not entirely sure that *really* matters to most normal people though.

The idea that affirmative consent is "not sexy enough" is pretty ridiculous, as a society (or most in the West) we've gotten used to the idea of using latex condoms on our junk and people don't think that is "not sexy enough" so the idea that a few words would kill the mood entirely... well I can't see it anyway.

[spinner981]

I think I get that the concept of making any sexual act, that didn't have a clear affirmative consent given, is made criminal by this idea, and that that is a bad thing. Fine. I'm not entirely sure that *really* matters to most normal people though.

The idea that affirmative consent is "not sexy enough" is pretty ridiculous, as a society (or most in the West) we've gotten used to the idea of using latex condoms on our junk and people don't think that is "not sexy enough" so the idea that a few words would kill the mood entirely... well I can't see it anyway.

Depends. Must you require permission for each individual 'act'? Would you have to ask for consent again if you were to do something 'different' from what you already asked for consent for? At that point there is either constant interruption, or the 'consent contract' before hand must make sure to include all possible acts that might and/or will take place.

I still want to know if hugs require affirmative consent though.

[Foosha]

Had a roommate Freshman year of college get kicked out for something like this (as far as I know it was a surprise kiss/maybe quick touch). Kicked out and book thrown at him. Sucks. He was also a shit roommate. Karma baby

[Gandrake]

Fixed that for fun.

I still don't get how this law can pass, it's an opposite of common sense and opposite of what law is supposed to be

And a lot of the time rape is one of those he said she said things.

Just look at the Brock Turner case. The victim is furious because she can't tell you whether or not she consented. Only Brock can tell you that. One of Hillary Clinton's clients as a Lawyer was guilty of a rape and she got him acquitted of charges. It's not something where in the name of justice these are easily discerned by investigation.

It takes a lot of time and resources and almost no one is ever pleased with the outcome...

[Foosha]

And a lot of the time rape is one of those he said she said things.

Just look at the Brock Turner case. The victim is furious because she can't tell you whether or not she consented. Only Brock can tell you that. One of Hillary Clinton's clients as a Lawyer was guilty of a rape and she got him acquitted of charges. It's not something where in the name of justice these are easily discerned by investigation.

It takes a lot of time and resources and almost no one is ever pleased with the outcome...

Basically boils down to not being a fucking retard. Hey, you like a guy? Don't drink 10 shots with him the first/2nd night and have him be your only ride. YOU are responsible for your own safety. Exclusions apply elsewhere, but on college campuses DONT BE A GODDAMN DIPSHIT

[Seani]

Statistically a man is more likely to be raped than a woman, so I can't help but smh at this nonsense.

[Cyberowl]

Statistically a man is more likely to be raped than a woman, so I can't help but smh at this nonsense.

Have a source for that?

[Seani]

Have a source for that?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ual-abuse.html New York Review of Books as source.

So the statistics were taken from bjs.gov.

[Cyberowl]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ual-abuse.html New York Review of Books as source.

So the statistics were taken from bjs.gov.

I didn't know we were discussing Yes means Yes in prison environments!

You tried to make an argument about A, citing an statistic that includes A and B. Pretty dishonest, if you ask me.

[Seani]

Basically boils down to not being a fucking retard. Hey, you like a guy? Don't drink 10 shots with him the first/2nd night and have him be your only ride. YOU are responsible for your own safety. Exclusions apply elsewhere, but on college campuses DONT BE A GODDAMN DIPSHIT

Modern day feminism teaches women to take no accountability for their actions. I saw this all the time in college. Most guys are smart enough to leave the drunk easy girl alone, but there is always that one guy who doesn't have the sense to leave her alone and gets busted for rape.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't know we were discussing Yes means Yes in prison environments!

You tried to make an argument about A, citing an statistic that includes A and B. Pretty dishonest, if you ask me.

Men getting raped doesn't count in prison?

[Cyberowl]

Modern day feminism teaches women to take no accountability for their actions. I saw this all the time in college. Most guys are smart enough to leave the drunk easy girl alone, but there is always that one guy who doesn't have the sense to leave her alone and gets busted for rape.

- - - Updated - - -



Men getting raped doesn't count in prison?

Of course it does. But I have some serious doubts how a Yes means Yes or No means no law would hold up in prison. Of course rape is bad independent of gender or place.

Laws like this or mainly made for the normal environment. You were dishonestly using statistics in order to come up with a conclusion that doesn't hold up for the circumstances 99% of the people are talking about.

[Deleted]

Here's a thought: don't rape anyone and you won't have anything to worry about. I know that can be confusing for some people...

Except when people say they were raped when they were not.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...a-1106423.html

[darkwarrior42]

Men getting raped doesn't count in prison?

It should, but a lot of people think once you're in prison you deserve whatever you get, and that prisoners aren't real people anymore so anything that happens to them shouldn't count. Though, to be fair, it's probably irrelevant for this topic anyways, as most cases of prison rape don't wind up going anywhere for the above reason, regardless of which way you construe consent... so citing the statistic in light of this conversation doesn't mean much.

Given how many men choose not to report when they've been sexually assaulted or raped, it's very difficult to have any idea how many men are actually victimized, or which gender is more likely to be attacked. I know in the Navy it's generally believed that men and women are about equally likely to be attacked, but women are far more likely to report. (There's a lot of variance on that, though... depends a lot on how you crunch the numbers and what you're looking at specifically.)

The idea of affirmative consent, particularly the ongoing variety used by California, is frankly absurd in my opinion. Having to stop what you're doing in order to ask permission to go on is often a mood killer, and assumes that two people can't ever know each other well enough to act without establishing a legal contract first.

I will say, though, that given how many times in the past colleges have covered this shit up for the sake of their rep, or attacked the victim in order to avoid bad publicity, I absolutely understand the desire to implement a system like this on college campuses. They've proven they cannot be trusted to handle these matters intelligently or ethically, so that leaves it up to society to find a way of holding them accountable. I don't think this is the best way, or even a good way, but if the choice is between this and letting colleges keep covering attacks up... I think this is the lesser of two evils.

[Seani]

Of course it does. But I have some serious doubts how a Yes means Yes or No means no law would hold up in prison. Of course rape is bad independent of gender or place.

Laws like this or mainly made for the normal environment. You were dishonestly using statistics in order to come up with a conclusion that doesn't hold up for the circumstances 99% of the people are talking about.

I'm talking about all men and all women in the US. it isn't a difficult concept and and I don't think anyone else thinks I am being dishonest.

[Cyberowl]

I'm talking about all men and all women in the US. it isn't a difficult concept and and I don't think anyone else thinks I am being dishonest.

It's not a hard concept, it's just a pretty irrelevant one. It's also called cherry picking in statistics.

Basically what you did was along the lines of arguing that a desert isn't dry because it has an oasis.

[Seani]

It's not a hard concept, it's just a pretty irrelevant one. It's also called cherry picking in statistics.

Basically what you did was along the lines of arguing that a desert isn't dry because it has an oasis.

Your problem is that I included incarcerated men in the statistics, I don't think anyone else views the data as irrelevant because of that.

[Cyberowl]

Your problem is that I included incarcerated men in the statistics, I don't think anyone else sees the data as irrelevant because of that.

Your problem is wanting to me Mr. Smartypants in a discussion with a conclusion that can't be applied for 99% of the people. Again, cherry picking is literally what you are doing; you are not the first one to discover absolute numbers.

All the power to you if you want to make a thread about the problem if prison rapes, you won't see me arguing for it being a non-issue in that one.