Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Deleted]

67% maximum uptime for momentum is not true, its more like 90%. I have posted about it to another thread already, the gaps where you arent able to cast FR or VR are pretty rare. The momentum buff can be kept up for 89% of time.

Vr 15sec cd, +4sec momentum
Use felrush, +4 second momentum (Vr cd remaining 11sec)
Use felrush, +4 second momentum, (vr cd 7sec, first FR charge 6sec away)
After momentum ends, there is 2 seconds before first charge of FR is usable again, 6 seconds for second charge and 3sec for VR cd
After 2 seconds use FR, +4sec momentum - second charge of FR is 4 seconds away, 1 sec left VR cd
VR is off cooldown, use it, +4sec momentum, second charge of FR usable again
use FR, +4 sec momentum - vr cd 11sec, FR charge 6sec
2 second gap in momentum
use FR rush +4sec momentum, vr cd 5 sec, fr charge 4sec
use fr +4sec momentum
use VR, +4sec momentum
2sec gap
FR+4sec momentum
FR
VR

etc

In this time span, its 6 seconds downtime, total time playued 54seconds

6/54 = 0,111.. = 11%

89% uptime

[Juvencus]

I can't figure out how to download a version of sim craft that includes demon hunters.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/download.html

Downloaded the top one, it's still WoD.

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/

As of this post, 703-01 is the latest:

SimcSetup-703-01-Win64.exe

[Dimzum]

67% maximum uptime for momentum is not true, its more like 90%. I have posted about it to another thread already, the gaps where you arent able to cast FR or VR are pretty rare. The momentum buff can be kept up for 89% of time.

Your math is off.

The longer a fight the more the uptime balances out.

In a 30 second window you can have 3 FR and 2 FR assuming both are off CD going into that window and no prior momentum buff.

That's 5 momentum buffs for 20 seconds. 20/30 is 66%

Obviously the shorter a fight, the more that initial two charges of FR helps. Also every minute you get two extra charges from blur. So 48/60 which is 80% (assuming you can fit those charges without coming l clipping)

Your not getting anything better.

[Deleted]

Your math is off.

The longer a fight the more the uptime balances out.

In a 30 second window you can have 3 FR and 2 FR assuming both are off CD going into that window and no prior momentum buff.

That's 5 momentum buffs for 20 seconds. 20/30 is 66%

Obviously the shorter a fight, the more that initial two charges of FR helps. Also every minute you get two extra charges from blur. So 48/60 which is 80% (assuming you can fit those charges without coming l clipping)

Your not getting anything better.

Lets see:

0s: Use VR +1 momentum
4s: Use FR +1 momentum
8s: Use FR +1 momentum
12s: Momentum ends
13s:
14s: Use FR +1 momentum
18s: Use VR +1 momentum
22s: Momentum ends
23s:
24s: Use FR +1 momentum
28s: Momentum ends
29s:
30s:

4 seconds without momentum

4/30 = 0,13 = 13%

87% uptime, which is in the ballpark what earlier though experiment suggested. I can use 4 fel rushes instead of only 3.

[Dimzum]

0s - FR
4s - VR
8s - FR
12s - FR
16s - Momentum Ends
19s - VR
23s - FR
27s - Momentum Ends
34s - VR
38s - FR
42s - Moentum Ends
49s VR
53s - FR
57s - momentum ends

40 seconds out of 57 = 70%

[Deleted]

0s - FR
4s - VR
8s - FR
12s - FR
16s - Momentum Ends
19s - VR
23s - FR
27s - Momentum Ends
34s - VR
38s - FR
42s - Moentum Ends
49s VR
53s - FR
57s - momentum ends

40 seconds out of 57 = 70%

0s: Use VR
4s: Use FR
8s: Use FR
12s: Momentum ends
13s:
14s: Use FR
18s: Use VR
22s: Momentum ends
23s:
24s: Use FR
28s: Momentum ends
29s:
30s:
31s:
32s:
33s: VR
37s: FR
41: Momentum ends
47: FR
51: VR
57: FR

Last second of momentum goes beyond 60s, lets see how much downtime in 60 second window:

15/60 = 0,25

100% - 25% = 75%

75% uptime

Your calculations went from when you could have used FR at 33s but you didnt.

[Dimzum]

1 - You're not going to VR into a fight
2 - I'm counting 44secs of up time, not 45, which is still 73% (muuuuch less than the 90% you were boasting)
3 - This is also complete and perfect execution.
4 - The longer this goes on, the more the percentage goes down.

Lastly, it gets fun when you throw in the artifact trait.

[Deleted]

1 - You're not going to VR into a fight
2 - I'm counting 44secs of up time, not 45, which is still 73% (muuuuch less than the 90% you were boasting)
3 - This is also complete and perfect execution.
4 - The longer this goes on, the more the percentage goes down.

Lastly, it gets fun when you throw in the artifact trait.

This is about theoretical maximum up time in 60 sec window we are talking about, your numbers are not correct.

Your calculations went wrong from when you could have used FR at 33s but you didnt, this skewes rest of the post.

Also it is 45sec uptime, watch more closely.

[Dimzum]

This is about theoretical maximum up time in 60 sec window we are talking about, your numbers are not correct.

Your calculations went wrong from when you could have used FR at 33s but you didnt, this skewes rest of the post.

Also it is 45sec uptime, watch more closely.

You're right I didn't because it would have clipped VR. That's the nice thing about FR you can bank one charge so you're not clipping momentum and have more uptime with VR.

Regardless if I didn't squeak the most potential momentum uptime in the first 60 seconds of a fight your original math is off.

You're looking at the whole thing in a vacuum. What happens the next minute of the fight? Or the next 3 minutes?
My original estimate become more and more closer around 66%

[Deleted]

You're right I didn't because it would have clipped VR. That's the nice thing about FR you can bank one charge so you're not clipping momentum and have more uptime with VR.

Regardless if I didn't squeak the most potential momentum uptime in the first 60 seconds of a fight your original math is off.

You're looking at the whole thing in a vacuum. What happens the next minute of the fight? Or the next 3 minutes?
My original estimate become more and more closer around 66%

You arent gonna clip existing momentum at 33s, because there isnt momentum up at this time.

My calculation about 75% uptime in 60 seconds is correct.

[Dimzum]

My calculation about 75% uptime in 60 seconds is correct.

Assuming you have 2 charges to start with. AVERAGE over a longer fight will drop down to close to the 65-70% range (not taking into account blur).

[Deleted]

Assuming you have 2 charges to start with. AVERAGE over a longer fight will drop down to close to the 65-70% range (not taking into account blur).

Probably yes

- - - Updated - - -

"Paths for Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat should also be used with care for maximum melee uptime"


If you wanted to absolutely be sure that you wont miss melee attack, ideally you always wanna VR through the boss, not sideways. Sideways VR could require you turn again at the end of VR on top of having to 180 before doing the VR. If you have to turn to be able to hit boss at the end of VR, you actually are guaranteed to miss 1 melee attack, since melee attack comes instantly after VR if you are facing boss already.

When VR'ing through the boss, you are already facing the boss at the end of VR, no need to turn at all.

So the guide is wrong regarding optimal VR path. The optimal VR path is through the boss, and the sideways is the secondary option, if we are only discussing melee uptime.

In practise, none of this has any meaning and all of those paths are just as optimal, but VRing sideways is little more risky than just going through the target.

OP is obviously talking some very theoretical benefits when choosing paths, but hes doing it wrong.

[Vanyali]

The sideways path doesn't require you to camera turn to keep melee uptime up, and will result in a loss of swing.

The diagonal does not put your back to the boss, and will allow you to continue swinging.

It has fuckall to do with momentum uptime, which is impossible to get 80%+ for any fight of significant length (a 60s fight is essentially purposeless for any theorycrafting).

[Deleted]

The sideways path doesn't require you to camera turn to keep melee uptime up, and will result in a loss of swing.

The diagonal does not put your back to the boss, and will allow you to continue swinging.

It has fuckall to do with momentum uptime, which is impossible to get 80%+ for any fight of significant length (a 60s fight is essentially purposeless for any theorycrafting).

I am talking about melee uptime, momentum was entirely different topic.

What are you talking about not requiring camera turn? You cant strife with VR, you always need to turn your back.

For VR, the safest path without losing melee uptime is through center of bosses hitbox.

Difference between VR'ing through center and sideway is that for diagonal path you turn 135 degree, and for center pathway you turn 180, this is completely irrelevant because mouse turning is instant operation, but sideway has risk that you might more easily actually end up facing away from the target or go out of melee range, while center path will always leave you facing the target and hitbox covers more area of the VR distance.

It is obvious that middle of hitbox is the best way for VR, you should edit your guide for that part.

[Vanyali]

I am talking about melee uptime, momentum was entirely different topic.

What are you talking about not requiring camera turn? You cant strife with VR, you always need to turn your back.

For VR, the safest path without losing melee uptime is through center of bosses hitbox.

Difference between VR'ing through center and sideway is that for diagonal path you turn 135 degree, and for center pathway you turn 180, this is completely irrelevant because mouse turning is instant operation, but sideway has risk that you might more easily actually end up facing away from the target or go out of melee range, while center path will always leave you facing the target and hitbox covers more area of the VR distance.

It is obvious that middle of hitbox is the best way for VR, you should edit your guide for that part.

It's also a fel rush pathway, which is why it's important to note.

It also depends on boss size and positioning.

TL;DR it's optimal, but not always useful.

[Deleted]

It's also a fel rush pathway, which is why it's important to note.

It also depends on boss size and positioning.

TL;DR it's optimal, but not always useful.

I am only talking VR, and if you wanna tell your guides readers what is the most optimal VR path, it is the middle of hitbox always.

Sure, you could get cleaved in you go in front of the boss, but if we are discussing melee up time, then in that context the hitbox middle path is the optimal, its simply most reliable due to less likely ending up outside melee range or potentially facing slighly off target.

Middle path is always better or at worst equally good as diagonal path regardless of hitbox size simply because it always covers more of VR distance, the diagonal path can only be worse/only as good based on hitbox size.

So TLDR is: when ever you can, VR through middle of hitbox.

[Radhium]

I've a question about fel barrage, should we use it on single target too ? (for when we don't want to change talent in dungeon for a monotarget boss)
Or the spell is just worth on multitarget and it's better to spam throw glaive & annihilation / chaos strike ?

[Taygai]

So demon blades and nemesis just aren't going to compete with momentum/prepared unless it's impossible to do momentum?

Maybe I misunderstood, if that's so, I may consider rerolling away from DH. I remember seeing something where demon blades is yes, going to be the worst of all 3, but momentum is the bigger culprit here for me, I don't really want to play that style in a raid or dungeon setting.

[Deleted]

So demon blades and nemesis just aren't going to compete with momentum/prepared unless it's impossible to do momentum?

Maybe I misunderstood, if that's so, I may consider rerolling away from DH. I remember seeing something where demon blades is yes, going to be the worst of all 3, but momentum is the bigger culprit here for me, I don't really want to play that style in a raid or dungeon setting.

Nemesis is better in pvp

[Taygai]

Nemesis is better in pvp

That's completely fine, but I don't really PvP. It was my fault for not specifying that. Speaking more on raid/dungeon setting.