How can people say now that Sylvanas isnt evil ?

[Aquamonkey]

warn/wɔːn/
verb
inform someone in advance of a possible danger, problem, or other unpleasant situation.

The horn in not a warning, its the retreat action. Magical? Not at all. How many times did Sylvanas and Wrynn shouted at each other during the scenario? Sylvanas was too prideful to admit she had to retreat and warn their allies. She'd rather abandon them to their deaths.

Sorry, but theres no possible excuse to what they did. I don't care if Thrall and Vol'jin were on the ground. You warn your ally that you have to retreat. You are supposed to work together, not seperatly. The horde was all shame in the broken shore. I honestly hope the Alliance doesn't ally with the horde ever again. At least until they get a trustworthy warchief like Thrall again.

The decision to retreat was made when she sounded the horn. How was she going to forewarn Varian of something she hadn't decided yet?

Also, the horn did warn the Alliance even by the definition you cited. It let them know the Horde was leaving their positoin and that it would be open for Legion advancement. Those things happened after the horn.

[Deleted]

The decision to retreat was made when she sounded the horn. How was she going to forewarn Varian of something she hadn't decided yet?

Also, the horn did warn the Alliance even by the definition you cited. It let them know the Horde was leaving their positoin and that it would be open for Legion advancement. Those things happened after the horn.

My quote specificly says in advance. I even bolded it for you. The horn is not a warning. Sounding the horn is the retreat action. The alliance was charging. Also, the decision is clearly made before sounding the horn. The blowing on the horn is the consequence of the decision. Before doing that, she could've yelled "wrynn we need to fall back, we are beeing overrun". Simple.

Really why don't you try to think of this in real life without any bias. Say Britain and the US are uniting in an assault against Nazi forces. Britain forces are beeing overrun and decide to leave without warning leaving US forces with the flank uncovered. Thousands die due to the crumbled flank. This is somehow ok behaviour between allies? Couldn't they have coordinated a retreat, or efforts to hold the line? No one in their right mind can agree to that. This kind of alliance between fores is quite honestly more detrimental in the fight against the legion than helpful.
I don't advocate war between alliance and horde, but i do think Sylvanas needs to he stopped. She is a danger to the whole of Azeroth.

[Aquamonkey]

My quote specificly says in advance. I even bolded it for you. The horn is not a warning. Sounding the horn is the retreat action. The alliance was charging. Also, the decision is clearly made before sounding the horn. The blowing on the horn is the consequence of the decision. Before doing that, she could've yelled "wrynn we need to fall back, we are beeing overrun". Simple.

The horn was in advance. It sounded, then the Horde retreated after. The Alliance even heard the horn before they saw the Horde retreat. That is in advance. Just because the Alliance didn't know why the Horde retreated doesn't mean they weren't notified.

Really why don't you try to think of this in real life without any bias. Say Britain and the US are uniting in an assault against Nazi forces. Britain forces are beeing overrun and decide to leave without warning leaving US forces with the flank uncovered. Thousands die due to the crumbled flank. This is somehow ok behaviour between allies? Couldn't they have coordinated a retreat, or efforts to hold the line? No one in their right mind can agree to that. This kind of alliance between fores is quite honestly more detrimental in the fight against the legion than helpful.

Oh, you wanna play out the scenario to its fullest then? Varian thought they were on the cusp of victory. The only thing they were counting on the Horde to do was clear the airspace, which the gunship did on its own. The Horde position that was overrun was way up in the cliffs away from the Alliance forces. It's not like new Legion troops suddenly popped up on top of the Alliance forces. If they were about to win and only needed the skies cleared. The skies were cleared without the Horde, they should have been fine to push their final assault.

It would be entirely different if air superiority going to the Legion fucked up the gunship they were calling in. But that didn't happen. Nothing changed in the immediate vicinity for the Alliance forces when the Horde retreated.

I don't advocate war between alliance and horde, but i do think Sylvanas needs to he stopped. She is a danger to the whole of Azeroth.

That is a completely different matter entirely.

[Traveler Voltin]

Evil for who?

[Espe]

If varian hadn't done what he did

Yeah but Genn was right there and he didn't even try to offer to help. He's clearly either completely incompetent or a coward. Looks like a bit of both from his confrontation with Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

He may have lost the duel but he won the fight.

I don't know man, that arrow hole looked pretty infected as he was running away as fast as he could from Sylvanas. I guess only time will tell if he is able to survive and redeem himself for his cowardice.

[Qualia]

Yeah but Genn was right there and he didn't even try to offer to help. He's clearly either completely incompetent or a coward. Looks like a bit of both from his confrontation with Sylvanas.

Wait, what? He offered his hand, that's how Varian was able to give him the letter. He was trying to help Varian to get on the ship before planning next move, seeing Varian wasn't in a comfortable position. He didn't / couldn't foresee Varian jumping down instead. Not sure how that made him a coward, unless you are asking him to - after the Reaver went down - throw the letter to someone else, jump down and die together with Varian.

[Yassy]

no it would not.
if she died the forsaken are done, the horde would loose if not half of their forces, the darkspear are leaderless, baine is still young and inexperienced and a couple of cows just isnt enough, the goblins are useless and the orcs are hell lot weakened since garrosh world-conqueror-wanna-be-scream.
thrall is also completely useless, since he turned into a ele shaman he unlearned how to fight, and now that he lost his connection to the elements its even worse.

lor'themar probably would once again consider joining the alliance unless he wants to be part of a broken defenseless faction.

I think most Sylvanas haters don't get this. If the Alliance retakes Lordaeron, the Blood elves are either boned or forced to leave the Horde. You then have 4 severely crippled Horde races remaining on Kalimdor. Without the Forsaken the Horde would just be finished.

[Traveler Voltin]

I think most Sylvanas haters don't get this. If the Alliance retakes Lordaeron, the Blood elves are either boned or forced to leave the Horde. You then have 4 severely crippled Horde races remaining on Kalimdor. Without the Forsaken the Horde would just be finished.

They know.
They don't care

[Lastgope]

Sylvanas isn't evil.

See it was very easy to say.

[Deleted]

If they're going for a redemption scenario I don't see it yet, although maybe that's the point.
Vol'jin's remark of "step out of the shadows and lead" seems to have been lost to Sylvanas. She's single-mindedly pursuing the selfish goal of immortality, while the Horde champion (whom she shows nothing but disrespect for) chases the Aegis. Nathanos, loyal to a fault, is left to clean up her messes. In Helheim she doesn't even make an attempt to help you leave with her. Upon returning to her forces the only thing she does is berate them. She then assaults a village filled with followers of a Valkyra you personally befriended, in an attempt to enslave Eyir, who's aligned with Odyn and squarely against the Legion.

She's fucking up bad. It'll be interesting to see where the turning point will be in the 7.1 raid.

[Igi]

From now on I'll just avoid all threads with "Sylvanas" in the title. Her haters became way worse than fanboys, creating pointless threads every time she does....well....anything. I swear, if there was a patch with these patch notes "Sylvanas is moved 1 yard to the left in undercity" people would create threads saying "Damn, that b*tch is up to something".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She's after power and she's gonna use it on the Legion. The attack right off the bat from the Allies decimated the Horde's fleet. Her going off on her own to basically gain a powerful necromancer as a pet helps the war effort.

She did absolutely nothing wrong. Genn is a moron and hurt both the Alliance and Horde's war effort.

- - - Updated - - -



So basically when the world needs to unite, genn takes the opportunity to attack the Horde...

his son..... was his world. (drop mic)

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

So far my impression is that neither Sylvanas nor Genn are acting in the best interests of Azeroth. Blizz may be forcing us to play through some faction conflict in order to complete the core quest lines, but they're also making a statement that faction conflict is a mistake on all sides.

[Vynestra]

if garrosh didnt order the attack*

you mean.

Garrosh also said not to use the plague.

so. Let's not be all pretty pretty about the undead "being forced" to do it, they ruined Gilneas with the plague, they can't even go back.

To add to the discussion, while people are defending her for protecting her people, she is also enslaving the val'kyr and in turn giving them on a leash to Helya who is definitely evil. And her ulterior motive is really to just make herself immortal as she is scared of dying and going to hell. If you gave her that power, she would be virtually no different than the lich king. She would basically be the new lich king with her own version of the scourge. With the power to not only be brought back everytime she died, but continue making more undead. (Lich king does not mean arthas, it means in control of the scourge and having the power to create more, like bolvar who has not done evil things like Arthas did).

Everything she despised she would become, and let's be real, once the legion is defeated, do you think she wouldn't use her immortality against the alliance? You'd be an idiot if not, it's in the best interest of the alliance to fight the legion off using the current means, not an immortal army of undead who will then turn and rule the rest of the world after.

Sorry sylvannas fanboys, I do not like genns character that much, not a fan at all really. But yall got wrekt and rightfully so.

- - - Updated - - -

So far my impression is that neither Sylvanas nor Genn are acting in the best interests of Azeroth. Blizz may be forcing us to play through some faction conflict in order to complete the core quest lines, but they're also making a statement that faction conflict is a mistake on all sides.

^^^ This a lot, neither of them are actually doing this protect azeroth, it's all personal with both of them. Genn is doing it for his son under the guise of revenge for the alliance as well, and varian (which it partially is, but mostly his son) and for whats best for the alliance in his view.

Sylvannas is doing it for herself, under the guise of it's what is best for her people and for the horde (which it partially is, but remember, the GUISE of it, at the end of the day it's for her).

Anyone saying either is not true, is just a blind fanboy. They're both in the wrong.

[Deleted]

The horn was in advance. It sounded, then the Horde retreated after. The Alliance even heard the horn before they saw the Horde retreat. That is in advance. Just because the Alliance didn't know why the Horde retreated doesn't mean they weren't notified.


Oh, you wanna play out the scenario to its fullest then? Varian thought they were on the cusp of victory. The only thing they were counting on the Horde to do was clear the airspace, which the gunship did on its own. The Horde position that was overrun was way up in the cliffs away from the Alliance forces. It's not like new Legion troops suddenly popped up on top of the Alliance forces. If they were about to win and only needed the skies cleared. The skies were cleared without the Horde, they should have been fine to push their final assault.

It would be entirely different if air superiority going to the Legion fucked up the gunship they were calling in. But that didn't happen. Nothing changed in the immediate vicinity for the Alliance forces when the Horde retreated.


That is a completely different matter entirely.

You just don't understand or don't want to understand what a warning is. I will just leave it.

For the other part you are trying to make the case that the alliance didn't need the horde to attack the legion? So... you are admiting at them beeing useless? Well... one way or another it was the case. Wether you like it or not, allying with another force comes with a sense of responsibility. There was none in the horde. You know that and we know that. Theres no point trying to twist words or actions. It is what it is. The horde failed and it cause the alliance to fail because they trusted them to do their part and they didn't.

We know you are making excuses, but you know from the case i gave you that that wasn't acceptable behaviour and in any other conflict it would lead to dire consequences. I know you want to try and make excuses for your favorite characters, but do try to look at it from the angle of if it wasn't alliance and horde, but any other 2 forces.

[Magnagarde]

Everything she despised she would become, and let's be real, once the legion is defeated, do you think she wouldn't use her immortality against the alliance? You'd be an idiot if not, it's in the best interest of the alliance to fight the legion off using the current means, not an immortal army of undead who will then turn and rule the rest of the world after.

Sorry sylvannas fanboys, I do not like genns character that much, not a fan at all really. But yall got wrekt and rightfully so.



^^^ This a lot, neither of them are actually doing this protect azeroth, it's all personal with both of them. Genn is doing it for his son under the guise of revenge for the alliance as well, and varian (which it partially is, but mostly his son) and for whats best for the alliance in his view.

Sylvannas is doing it for herself, under the guise of it's what is best for her people and for the horde (which it partially is, but remember, the GUISE of it, at the end of the day it's for her).

Anyone saying either is not true, is just a blind fanboy. They're both in the wrong.

Blizzard pretty much saved her character by having Genn do this and in this regard, all the fanboys should be happy. There was no outcome in which a character such as hers - with the extensive track of villanous deeds she has - would last long had she acquired such a source of power; she'd be turning on everyone.

Whenever she acquired a power or technology, be it the power to raise more undead or to use the plague, she used it to the maximum of her possibilities, showing no less eagerness to do these things than the Lich King did. The only difference is that she never really had the power Arthas had, which didn't allow her character to show its "truest" face.

Her entire character and the undead that follow her, along with their allignment with the Horde, is a comical attempt at storytelling. She believes she is a prisoner to a curse, yet raises more into that prison; she was allowed into the Horde so a cure can be found for her and the undead that follow her, only to spend her time in the Horde creating more of the sick which the Horde is <<<finding>>> a cure for.

Blizzard has pretty much obliterated everything the Horde was a sigil of in gaming culture when adding the undead to the Horde and then making her character warchief(be it the Warcraft II or Warcraft III Horde used for comparison), effectively turning it into a brand that catters to emos and dark culture.

Garrosh also said not to use the plague.

so. Let's not be all pretty pretty about the undead "being forced" to do it, they ruined Gilneas with the plague, they can't even go back.

As I said in a post yesterday or so; fanboys tend to make attempts at micromanaging an arguement, claiming something while totally ignoring all the other aspects of what they've said, strictly sticking to that one that benefits their arguement.

You say the undead attacked Gilneas, they'll say Garrosh ordered it. You say Garrosh was against the plague and raising of new undead and now they'll spend their time trying to come up with something partially positive or logical about it(ie "hey, its war").

[Verdugo]

Blizzard has pretty much obliterated everything the Horde was a sigil of when adding the undead to the Horde and then making her character warchief(be it the Warcraft II or Warcraft III Horde used for comparison), effectively turning it into a brand that catters to emos and dark culture.

I am glad that you show no bias or ignorance in your posts.

[Magnagarde]

I am glad that you show no bias or ignorance in your posts.

Are you claiming that the Forsaken don't catter to such an audience?

[Amaterasu65]

Evil is subjective, Sylvanas wanted to enslave the valkyr to assure the Forsaken's survival as well as hers. Mostly hers. Her action is immoral to the other races' eyes because she acts out of selfishness.

Genn destroys Sylvanas' chance as a form of vengeance against her due to her killing his son, despite the arrow having been aimed to Genn, the destruction of Gilneas and Varian's death to the Legion. This is also a product of selfishness.

There is no wrong or right. Both act according to their own desires.

[MikeBogina]

He saved us from another lunatic villain. I think it was totally worth it.

He saved nothing. Because of him an entire fleet of Horde and a stocked Gunship of the Alliance is gone. The Horde and Alliance are both weaker because of his stupidity.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas is pretty explicitly after the Val'kyr for herself and/or the Forsaken. I don't believe she ever frames it as a weapon against the Legion - it seems to be a pretty straightforward continuation of her existing mission to create more Forsaken and preserve herself. Heck, she basically tells us that we're there to get the pillar because she wants to do her own thing.

You must be an alliance player, or just another have any grasp for how wars are fought. She needs more forces. Her people can't reproduce naturally, so they need a means to bolster their numbers.

The Forsaken is basically a weaker Scourge and the Scourge gets more powerful, when they add more to their ranks. That's what Sylvanas intended to do. She never once from the beginning of Legion till the moment the Alliance attacked, made any remark of wanting to fight the Alliance.


While we're on the subject, why is it ok for people like Jaina to go and possess powers, like the Thunderking? It's just Alliance bias that only Alliance characters can gain power?

- - - Updated - - -

his son..... was his world. (drop mic)

Well now they can go ahead and make him a dungeon boss, because his selfishness cost lives and made shit worse for everyone.