Unlicensed illegal invader crashes into accident scene, kills 2, injures 36.

[madethisfor1post]

Anyone can have this accident but it would have been a lot less likely if you where properly trained and licensed.

So blame the company that hired him. Ask to see his record with them. See what kind of company would let this driver on the road as a member of their fleet.

Odds are he had to be at least proficient at driving a bus to get passed the hurdle of being hired.

[Paranoid Android]

Anyone can have this accident but it would have been a lot less likely if you where properly trained and licensed.

Or hired by the owner/business. OH SNAP!

Remember. Be impartial!

[zenkai]

So blame the company that hired him. Ask to see his record with them. See what kind of company would let this driver on the road as a member of their fleet.

Odds are he had to be at least proficient at driving a bus to get passed the hurdle of being hired.

Both are to blame.

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Or hired by the owner/business. OH SNAP!

Remember. Be impartial!

Exactly, it took both of these problems to create this outcome.

[waitwutt]

No the point is anyone can have an accident. Anyone could have had THIS accident. The fact that this guy was an illegal doesn't fight for or against this fact.

oh, yes. but if this guy wasn't driving the bus. the chances of this accident happening are very small. therefore if we were better at keeping illegals out inasmuch that this guy wasn't behind the wheel, then the people that died would very likely not be dead right now

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Ask the government. There's no real reason for a license. Either you can drive or can't. License is just a piece of plastic.

lol so youre saying that a drivers license is not sufficient proof that you are or at least were at one point able to be competent enough to follow the rules of the road as the government has set them to the point where they were able to pass a test?

[runique]

What do you mean "normal, hard working people". The process is the same for everyone. You dont get to skip the process because you dont like it, or it takes too long.

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/le...ly-citizenship

My point is that the process needs to be changed, which is quite clearly stated in one of my posts earlier in this thread. And obviously, naturalization only applies to people who already live in the United States. The only way to be a permanent resident here as an immigrant is either A) marry into it, or have another way to acquire a family member visa, B) Have an extremely unique skillset that is valuable enough for a company to want to pay for the work visa instead of hiring a natural citizen, or C) move here illegally. Again, all you have done is provided proof that there is not a clear and concise way for a normal, hard working person could achieve citizenship, which is what my point was in the first post. Thank you.

[waitwutt]

So blame the company that hired him. Ask to see his record with them. See what kind of company would let this driver on the road as a member of their fleet.

Odds are he had to be at least proficient at driving a bus to get passed the hurdle of being hired.

blame goes upwards, cant stop at the company.

[Elim Garak]

lol so youre saying that a drivers license is not sufficient proof that you are or at least were at one point able to be competent enough to follow the rules of the road as the government has set them to the point where they were able to pass a test?

Who needs proof? Do you need proof that you can drive? Do I need proof that you can drive? I don't give a fuck. Only government cares somehow. You either can or cannot drive. Accidents happen with licenses and without licenses. The only reason to have licenses is to cash in on fines when people break arbitrary rules.

[waitwutt]

Bus company's fault.

Illegal is going to do what illegals are going to do which is take whatever job pays the bills. Him being allowed to drive the bus at all falls squarely on the shoulders of the company that let him behind the wheel.

and company is going to hire whoever costs less to hire to pay bills. and country is only going to pass laws that are favorable to voters to gain office to pay bills by not passing any laws making it harder to hire illegals which is going to be viewed as "racist against minorities"

so govt has to go easy on companies hiring illegals ( "minorities" in public view and media twist) or they don't get voted in, companies have to hire low wage employees so they can expand and make more money (if they don't then other companies will and be larger competition) and illegals who are under qualified have to find a job to pay the bills.

[Damajin]

My point is that the process needs to be changed, which is quite clearly stated in one of my posts earlier in this thread. And obviously, naturalization only applies to people who already live in the United States. The only way to be a permanent resident here as an immigrant is either A) marry into it, or have another way to acquire a family member visa, B) Have an extremely unique skillset that is valuable enough for a company to want to pay for the work visa instead of hiring a natural citizen, or C) move here illegally. Again, all you have done is provided proof that there is not a clear and concise way for a normal, hard working person could achieve citizenship, which is what my point was in the first post. Thank you.

No, it doesn't need to be changed. It's already a very reasponable list of requirements to become a citizen.

That there is an ever growing amount of people who just flat out don't want to comply with that isn't the fault of the system, it's the fault of the people who want to jump the line, jump the border and do things the wrong way.

There is a valid, clear and concise way for people to become citizens. You named it yourself, quite clearly and concisely.

[TrumpIsPresident]

You are right, he specifically wouldn't have caused the accident, someone else would have.

/facepalm

That's ...that's ...just not how things work.

(unless you're joking)

[waitwutt]

Bus company's fault.

Illegal is going to do what illegals are going to do which is take whatever job pays the bills. Him being allowed to drive the bus at all falls squarely on the shoulders of the company that let him behind the wheel.

companies going to do what companies going to do which is hire least expensive employee they can get away with so they can have more of them so they can expand and be competitive so they don't lose out to companies that hire low wage employees

government gunna do what government gunna do which is to go easy on companies making it easier for them to get away with stuff like this because making it harder to hire illegals mean making it harder to hire "minorities" (which is how the media will twist it). they gotta go easy on companies so they get voted into office and not be branded a racist. to pay the bills

companies gotta hire cheap so they can be competitive and not go outa business so they can pay the bills

illegals gotta take cheap jobs so they can pay the bills

[runique]

No, it doesn't need to be changed. It's already a very reasponable list of requirements to become a citizen.

That there is an ever growing amount of people who just flat out don't want to comply with that isn't the fault of the system, it's the fault of the people who want to jump the line, jump the border and do things the wrong way.

There is a valid, clear and concise way for people to become citizens. You named it yourself, quite clearly and concisely.

Well, considering that our naturalization process encourages illegal immigration, it quite clearly needs to be changed. My original point is that there is not a clear way (outside of illegal immigration) for a normal, hard working person to immigrate into the U.S. Also, illegal immigration is down. Don't know where you are getting that there is an "ever growing amount of people" that want to break the rule.

[TrumpIsPresident]

Well he also wouldn't have been involved if he wasn't hired, or if he got sick, or if his wife asked him to get a different job, or if....

Yes all true points of causality but heres the thing.

Only one of those + the original premise of blocking illegals from entry can be addressed by our nations laws and actions.

We can make it so businesses cant hire illegals, we can keep the illegals from entering.

We cant do anything about people getting sick or wife stuff, so those are moot points here.

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You are an advocate for death penalty for people who caused an accident...
You should hope that you will never be involved in an accident lol.

If an illegal immigrant illegally drives and causes fatalities then yes I'd entertain the notion of the death penalty as punishment for that, not for all accidents.

Strawman detected and defeated.

[runique]

Yes all true points of causality but heres the thing.

Only one of those + the original premise of blocking illegals from entry can be addressed by our nations laws and actions.

We can make it so businesses cant hire illegals, we can keep the illegals from entering.

We cant do anything about people getting sick or wife stuff, so those are moot points here.

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If an illegal immigrant illegally drives and causes fatalities then yes I'd entertain the notion of the death penalty as punishment for that, not for all accidents.

Strawman detected and defeated.

It is already illegal to hire illegal immigrants, and it already is illegal to illegally immigrate. And there isn't going to be a functioning wall built.

[petej0]

My point is that the process needs to be changed, which is quite clearly stated in one of my posts earlier in this thread. And obviously, naturalization only applies to people who already live in the United States. The only way to be a permanent resident here as an immigrant is either A) marry into it, or have another way to acquire a family member visa, B) Have an extremely unique skillset that is valuable enough for a company to want to pay for the work visa instead of hiring a natural citizen, or C) move here illegally. Again, all you have done is provided proof that there is not a clear and concise way for a normal, hard working person could achieve citizenship, which is what my point was in the first post. Thank you.

There IS a process though you can continue to say there is "not a clear and concise way" all you want, but an immigration system exists and cleary defines what you need to do immigrate. It isnt an overnight process, you just dont fly here, sign and paper and become a citizen. Just because you dont like it does not give someone reason to ignore it and just come over illegally.

Having said that, if you ask me, I think our procedures should be looked into. With the amount of immigration request that flood our system, there are bound to be delays, and some things may not be as smooth as we like. Then there are immigration quotas where we only accept a certain amount of immigrants from each region/country.

[TrumpIsPresident]

Using butterfly effect-esque logic to try and establish why we need a tougher border is frankly really, really stupid. You can try to make almost any point you want to by back tracking that much, doesn't mean it is correct.

And how many of those can actually be addressed by national law?

Sure you could say that a phone call as he was outing out the door would have stalled him for just enough time to ...etc etc etc.

But there's nothing we can do about that.

We CAN do something about these illegals being here.

That's why all these causality deniers are missing when they inject random "what ifs" as a defense for the fact that this illegal invader caused two deaths that could have reasonably been prevented with actual preventive policy.

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Bold words for someone directly descended from literal invaders.

Yea I descended from people who came over on ships.

They just didn't go willingly.

When that sets in you're going to have to eat your words.

[petej0]

Who needs proof? Do you need proof that you can drive? Do I need proof that you can drive? I don't give a fuck. Only government cares somehow. You either can or cannot drive. Accidents happen with licenses and without licenses. The only reason to have licenses is to cash in on fines when people break arbitrary rules.

The State requires proof that you have been trained to drive. They want to ensure everyone who gets behind the wheel knows the rules of the roads in their state. They want to ensure everyone knows the signs and rights of way to reduce the number of accidents on the roads of the state.

[TrumpIsPresident]

The problem with illegal immigration is that there is zero common sense in the path to becoming a legal citizen. You basically have to be an illegal citizen first to become a legal citizen right now. There should be a clear and concise way for hard working people from anywhere to come and eventually acquire citizenship, and there isn't. The only people who think that our immigration laws do not need to be changed are people who are unfamiliar with them. Also, as a side note, the whole myth of there being an immigration crises is a lie, immigration is down (despite how newt and other repubs feel).

Immigration, like everything else government run, is a cumbersome burdensome process.

And we can and should address that ...after we secure the border and remove those here illegally.

[Damajin]

Well, considering that our naturalization process encourages illegal immigration, it quite clearly needs to be changed. My original point is that there is not a clear way (outside of illegal immigration) for a normal, hard working person to immigrate into the U.S. Also, illegal immigration is down. Don't know where you are getting that there is an "ever growing amount of people" that want to break the rule.

Our porous, understaffed border encourages illegal immigration.

There is a very clear way to immigrate here. Too many people don't want to comply with that very clear way. Tough shit.

[waitwutt]

Who needs proof? Do you need proof that you can drive? Do I need proof that you can drive? I don't give a fuck. Only government cares somehow. You either can or cannot drive. Accidents happen with licenses and without licenses. The only reason to have licenses is to cash in on fines when people break arbitrary rules.

you know what youre right. and why stop at ground based motor vehicles?

surgeons up next!

do you want your surgeon to have a surgical license? why? " I don't give a fuck. Only government cares somehow." you either can or cannot operate successfully. accidents happen with licenses and without licenses. The only reason to have licenses is to cash in on fines when people break arbitrary rules.

or airline pilots

do you want your pilot to have a license to fly? why? " I don't give a fuck. Only government cares somehow." you either can or cannot fly a plane successfully. accidents happen with licenses and without licenses. The only reason to have licenses is to cash in on fines when people break arbitrary rules.

im so glad my eyes have been open by your wisdom