Game still caters too heavily to pug/solo players

[slaise1]

That's why we unfortunately have to rely on Blizzard announcing legacy servers.

[Dominus89]

Because you cant create a guild group?
If no one in your guild wanna do anything together, then perhaps you should look for a new guild if thats what you're after.

Pugging is nothing new in WoW, it's been a part of the game since it came out, the only difference is that you back then had to look for a group manually, and now you can just queue up for a normal or heroic dungeon and group up with others that way.
You can however still make your own group, manually.

[Iamanerd]

Most people wouldn't know, as they're stuck below lvl 110 cause there aren't enough quests to do.. well there are, but you're forced to do side quests, bonuses and basically everything In every zone just to ding 110, which for alts will be a nightmare until you can just run the dungeons to level up like you would In WoD (Besides doing the quests that gave you free garrison plans, which was useful and quick)

Where are all these people who are running out of quests? When I hit 110 I only completed 2 zones and was almost done on my 3rd and I've have a number of friends with the same result.

[kamuimac]

It's pretty disingenuous to say "oh, you can PUG anything easily now, even Mythics" and pretend that Heroics in TBC somehow required a top guild to beat.

and tbh i would dread pugging even mythic atm with complete randoms - see it already in hc dungeons - people pulling below 100k on boss , +/- 150k on trash, not interupting not stuning geting hit by everything - it would be a nightmare doin mythci with those pugs - ofc that mythic raiders can do mythic easily but average wow player ? dont joke

[WintersLegion]

Sadly, no. Cataclysm proved that the masses are incapable of playing at that level using LFG. Cata 5-man mechanics were not super complex they just required being followed and using CC. Most of the people who play this game are in fact terrible at it. You could put them in Vanilla, BC, Cata(pre-nerf) and they'd fail just the same.

I don't think it was actually so much that groups were incapable of of playing at that level and more the huge difficulty spike there was jumping from Wrath Heriocs to Cata. If they dg's had slowly been ranked up in difficulty sort of like how mythics are now I think it would of worked a lot better.

- - - Updated - - -

..and this gem of wisdom comes from what gaming bible that who wrote and needs to be followed to the letter? What does the game have to be in your book to cater LESS to single players / PuGs?

Why was TBC better because it was "so hard it FORCED you to make friends and have a guild. Since when do people enjoy to be FORCED when pursuing a hobby? I think the game should offer CHOICE. So I can CHOOSE to do the game alone, or in a PuG at a low level - and find a guild if I decide to go Hardmode or mythic +

And before I get the tired old "It is a MMO as in massively multiplayer" - yeah...there are multiple players. Says nowhere they also "must be forced to interact at all times".

Our world is massively populated with other people and in RL we do our damn best to stay away from them. Or do you constantly chat up people in the bus or train on the way to work or when you go shopping? I bet like many others you have your earplugs in and stare at your smartphone.

And if you did, more than not would give you the "Gee, leave me alone weirdo" look.

One of the things that really gets me is when people talk about how their friends list was full of friends they did dg's with and now it's empty. That means they were never your friends they were using you and you were using them for the dg's and that is it. If they were friends they would still be on your list.

[IIamaKing]

It's pretty disingenuous to say "oh, you can PUG anything easily now, even Mythics" and pretend that Heroics in TBC somehow required a top guild to beat.

Wont say required, but there were a number that were avoided pretty heavily by pugs.

- - - Updated - - -

How is pugging not considered a communal aspect? You're literally engaging with other members of the community to beat content.

Becasue for all intents and purposes, those people could be NPCs.

[Deleted]

So the OP is salty because his/her friends don't want to play with him/her because he/she can't keep up with them? And that's the reason socialising should be forced on everyone else?

I think it's obvious what the real problems here is, or rather who the real problem is...

[IIamaKing]

Most people wouldn't know, as they're stuck below lvl 110 cause there aren't enough quests to do.. well there are, but you're forced to do side quests, bonuses and basically everything In every zone just to ding 110, which for alts will be a nightmare until you can just run the dungeons to level up like you would In WoD (Besides doing the quests that gave you free garrison plans, which was useful and quick)

You are not intended to lvl from the main story quests alone, You are supposed to do some dungeons and bonuses as you go. I skipped MANY side quests a few bonuses and 3 dungeons, got to 110, still have all sort of side quests to do and dungeons I've yet to run.

[mhdoe]

And if it was more group content people would probably complain there is not enough solo or pug content /sigh.

[Zyky]

We are back to the problem with rose tinted glasses here. The fact is the general wow player has simply become better. If you go back now and try out the tbc heroics you will find they are laughably easy.

The problem isn't hard content. The problem is you.

If you want to be in a guild that's social about these things then go find one, they are definitely out there. I haven't done one pug group since release and I am 835 on my rogue now with all mythic dungeons on cd

I have no idea what you're talking about. The only reason BC heroics are easy now is because they removed so much from the game and got them nerfed to shit, for example the removal of crushing blows way back then. Heroics back then don't compare to the heroics now. These are laughable even a group of morons can do it and you know there's a problem with a DK or DH tank can solo the last 40% of a boss when everyone else dies. As for the general WoW player getting better what a joke lol. The quality of players has greatly dropped since BC, even dropped since MoP. Why? Because a large chunk of the good players gave WoW a second chance with WoD and then never came back. There's a reason that only 2% of the world killed Mythic Archimonde before prepatch nerfs. There's a reason 10% of the top 500 guilds disbanded in HFC. Quality of players is lacking greatly.

[Otimus]

Why is it only hardcore MMO players are the only type of people who don't consider actually playing with strangers, like... actual multiplayer or whatever?

Aside from the hardest of the hardest content, it's a good thing things are puggable.

Frankly, Blizzard spent years and years and years trying their good god damnedest to get people to do that kind of stuff, and no matter what level of incentive they threw at it, it frankly just never worked. Even when it was the only way to do most things.


The "you need a guild for most things" boat long sailed because it really doesn't work. It just results in most people not bothering to do stuff. That's just not a design in gaming that works anymore. It's something I can greatly understand why people like, but times have changed, and it doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with that shift in design is "lazy" or whatever either, or whatever quick attack people will readily make against it.

You've just got to take a deep breath, sigh, and realize that yes, if you really try hard enough, you CAN socialize with strangers, too.

[ShiyoKozuki]

Why is it only hardcore MMO players are the only type of people who don't consider actually playing with strangers, like... actual multiplayer or whatever?

Aside from the hardest of the hardest content, it's a good thing things are puggable.

Frankly, Blizzard spent years and years and years trying their good god damnedest to get people to do that kind of stuff, and no matter what level of incentive they threw at it, it frankly just never worked. Even when it was the only way to do most things.


The "you need a guild for most things" boat long sailed because it really doesn't work. It just results in most people not bothering to do stuff. That's just not a design in gaming that works anymore. It's something I can greatly understand why people like, but times have changed, and it doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with that shift in design is "lazy" or whatever either, or whatever quick attack people will readily make against it.

You've just got to take a deep breath, sigh, and realize that yes, if you really try hard enough, you CAN socialize with strangers, too.

Anyone saying things like this hasn't been playing since vanilla or even TBC. They simply don't understand.

[Blur4stuff]

If you're having trouble engaging the community then that's on you. There's plenty of opportunity to participate and make friends.

[Otimus]

Anyone saying things like this hasn't been playing since vanilla or even TBC. They simply don't understand.

I actually have been playing since late TBC. You also totally glossed over all of my points :/

[Deleted]

We are back to the problem with rose tinted glasses here. The fact is the general wow player has simply become better. If you go back now and try out the tbc heroics you will find they are laughably easy.

The problem isn't hard content. The problem is you.

If you want to be in a guild that's social about these things then go find one, they are definitely out there. I haven't done one pug group since release and I am 835 on my rogue now with all mythic dungeons on cd

Playerbas is getting better ? do you remember Cata dungeon and the outcry of the majority because it was "difficult" ? just don't bring that argument please.

with that being said, now WoW offers the choice. if you want to pug content you can, and if you want to do guild/friends run you can too, so i can't see where is the problem.

[bufferunderrun]

The game caters too heavily to the pug/solo playstyle and completely neglects and doesn't foster a community of friends or a guild at all.

There's absolutely no content in the game right now that you cannot pug. From leveling to normal dungeons, to heroic dungeons, to even mythics. You can pug it all, without much effort or headache. Pain free, really.

Yes, there will be raids added, but raids are generally easily puggable outside mythics. There's no reason to join a guild outside of mythic raiding, 1% of the game.

All my friends and guildmates are pugging(or playing with a bf/gf or really really close friend) everything. We're all online, playing alone, with strangers we'll never see again.

We're all on different progression paths, we have no reason to play together because it's faster, easier, and more convenient to just pug with others on the same progression path as us.

Example(completely made up) oh I just started normals, but x friend is on mythics already, and my other X friends are on heroics, they have no reason to play with me and just tell me "go pug normals it's what we all did to get gear for heroics!". However, by the time I get heroic gear, my heroic friends will be onto mythics, and mythic friends will be waiting for raids or playing other games.


Back in TBC, if you wanted to do heroics, you better have friends or a guild because they were very hard and challenging. It forced people to make friends, find a guild, and want to play with eachother. They couldn't just as easily clear that content with pugs - it was suffering to pug heroics, and raids? No, you were never going to pug a raid until VERY late into the expansion.

Legion is fantastic, it has amazing design, buttloads of content, tons of stuff to do, really well designed 5 mans.

Yet...it lacks at being a MMO, a problem we've had since WOTLK. Without being a proper MMO, there's really nothing to keep you coming back or wanting to play the game. Without friends, the content just isn't as enjoyable. Pugging x dungeon for the 100th time isn't as fun as playing with your close buddies. You can't get those close friends, because the game pushes people who want to make close friends and play with them away. It just invites pug/soloist players.

I'm really unhappy with how anti-social and anti-MMO this game still is.

why don't you (and blizzard) simply accept the fact that nowadays peoples don't want to take up a second job into a wow guild?

[Nihilist74]

The game needs to cater more to solo and pug players. The only thing bad about the game is that its an mmo, otherwise its the greatest action rpg that there is. If it was up to me it would be a single player game with the option of playing multi-player.

[Perkunas]

The game needs to cater more to solo and pug players. The only thing bad about the game is that its an mmo, otherwise its the greatest action rpg that there is. If it was up to me it would be a single player game with the option of playing multi-player.

Working out really well for Star Wars right now...

[Monstercloud]

Anyone saying things like this hasn't been playing since vanilla or even TBC. They simply don't understand.

And someone who says this is so married to their elitist entitled nostalgia, and this is coming from someone who played classic. People understand, but that doesn't make your points valid beyond personal taste/opinion.

[Deleted]

You've just got to take a deep breath, sigh, and realize that yes, if you really try hard enough, you CAN socialize with strangers, too.

You understand that joining a guild is socializing with strangers too ? and it's a better form of socializing because when you join a guild you know that those "strangers" have the same mindset, goals, motivations as you, and it's a healthier environement to do content since you can have more coordination and peoples actions have repercussions and feel more rewarding. meanwhile in a Pug the only motivation is killing the bosses and getting the "lewt" you can't coordinate most of the time, that why Pug Leaders always ask high ilvl requirements/achievements they don't want or have to deal with that kind of stuff it's a headaches especially you are doing it with people that you'll never see again, and Pug that don't do that fail most of the time.

But the choice is there you can pug/LFG/LFR or join a guild, and it's great. the anti social players miss out on the best aspect of an MMO but that's the way they chose to play.