I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Schizoide]

He said "main mechanic", and Blur's main mechanic for Havoc is the flat damage reduction, because bosses aren't going to be meleeing you anyway. Hopefully. Also it's unclear why a more RNG skill should necessarily be used on cooldown in the first place.

[Raikh]

Blur is not random, you're thinking of Darkness.

Blur giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a very small performance increase-- that is something only the truly hardcore should attempt. Everybody else should hold Blur to save their life.

It isn't that small, demon speed rivals your major artifact traits in power. It is about 2,5% dps increase on single target (inner demon is ~2,3% / rage of the illidari ~2,5% / Agnuish of the Deceiver ~1,5%) and will ofcourse be more valuable for cleave and AoE. It also gives you extra gap closing for quicker target switching if you really want it to. Lastly it can also help generate higher burst by fueling high momentum uptime into metamorphosis, increased damage phases or utilize it to nuke high priority targets.

2,5% when playing with momentum is surely not mandatory outside of min-maxing but I would still call it noticable, especially during AoE and in dungeons. I personally would call it a damage CD of ours and only use it for defense when direly needed or in the bets case scenario do both at the same time, which should be fairly doable with only a bit of strategic delay.

[Schizoide]

Using Blur offensively sims as a 2.1% gain to me. Interestingly, the default DH_Havoc_T19P profile doesn't do it, and they are usually very highly optimized. To replicate, add this line immediately above the first use of Fel Rush.

actions+=/blur,if=action.fel_rush.charges=0

This adds substantial micromanagement and means you can't use Blur to save your life. I could see using it on AE trash though, point taken.

[mitre27]

Blur is not random, you're thinking of Darkness.

Blur giving 2 Fel Rush charges is a very small performance increase-- that is something only the truly hardcore should attempt. Everybody else should hold Blur to save their life.

It's not that small, 2 fel rushes more each minute is quite a bit.

[Beace]

If you're already in the habit of using Fel Rush on cooldown, I don't see how getting a few more charges from Blur means a lot more micromanagement. It's just a bit more of whatever you're already doing.

That said, I dislike having dps increases built into defensive cooldowns like this, and I also dislike being "forced" into rushing around and through the boss over and over again. So far I'm enjoying leveling up my Havoc DH, but I'm extremely hesitant about having it as a main. Will have to see how it works out for longer periods in dungeons and raids.

I'm really loving the Demon Blades talent because it gives me to a play style that isn't GCD locked, with very little (if any) sacrifice. Likewise I think there should be talent choices that means you don't have to Fel Rush all the time, without giving up a huge chunk of dps. Sure let the top players Rush around for a few % gain with optimal play, but give the other players another choice.

[Schizoide]

It's not that small, 2 fel rushes more each minute is quite a bit.

Sure if 2.1% is "quite a bit" to you.

[Narzok]

I think it's funny how on one hand people say: "if you don't like it play without it, dps doen't matter, it's not so big of a loss" and on the other hand players get kicked from groups for smaller mistakes than 20!!% less dps than intended, because as it was said, fel rushing often is an intended mechanic for Havoc.

It's like: "I don't like Poison and bleed effect, but love assa rogue"

so either get used to rushing or be prepared (pun intended) to be judged for doing bad dps in dungeons and raids

[Beace]

It's like: "I don't like Poison and bleed effect, but love assa rogue"

I think a more apt description would be "I don't like Poison and bleed effect, but love rogue". And rogues do have options that involve little or no poisons/bleeds.

[Schizoide]

Yes, because rogue talents allow them to customize their playstyle to meet their own particular preferences. Most Havoc talent tiers do not, and none allow Havoc to opt-out of repositioning rotationally.

[Taygai]

Just got out of a halls of valor heroic run with guildies. Honestly the hall way where all of the vrykul are eating at, you can't really do a momentum build in there without pulling the whole room unless the tank pulls back. He did, but I just can't see it going well. It's mega strong AoE and strong in single target, but it's just a huge problem how much farther ahead momentum and fel mastery is.

I've never had to ask for this, but please nerf momentum/fel mastery or buff others to be competitive. It's just hard, even my RL is asking me to wait until raids come out. It's too late at that point. So I'll be stuck playing something I don't enjoy unless I don't feel like raiding.

Crappy situation to be in. I've never felt so conflicted before in my class choice.

[kliffharry]

I think people have gotten so used to other classes and how they have played over the years that they automatically assume FR is a mobility spell with damage to it, while it in fact is a damage spell with mobility.

I for one love the FR playstyle as it makes DH play different from any other class and wasn't the design idea of Legion to make specs feel unique? FR is a core mechanic of the DH and is something you just have to accept when you roll one. That's the same reason I stay away from any ranged class because I just don't like the core mechanics of ranged combat.

Just got out of a halls of valor heroic run with guildies. Honestly the hall way where all of the vrykul are eating at, you can't really do a momentum build in there without pulling the whole room unless the tank pulls back. He did, but I just can't see it going well. It's mega strong AoE and strong in single target, but it's just a huge problem how much farther ahead momentum and fel mastery is.

I've never had to ask for this, but please nerf momentum/fel mastery or buff others to be competitive. It's just hard, even my RL is asking me to wait until raids come out. It's too late at that point. So I'll be stuck playing something I don't enjoy unless I don't feel like raiding.

Crappy situation to be in. I've never felt so conflicted before in my class choice.

Just position yourself on the tank and FR towards the outer walls. FR has a huge hitbox.

[Taygai]

I don't mind fel rush being a part of our class, but I should have the choice to use it for damage or not. Whether you're talented or not, it's a dps gain. And if you're not using it, you're losing out on dps. While I understand for the majority of the community it won't matter, but for those who want to min/max, it's something we have to use. I like the class has mobility, but I'd just rather not be forced into this play style. Nerf fel rush damage, and allow the talents to carry it to higher damage, but please balance it so that other talents are valuable too.

[Schizoide]

I've never had to ask for this, but please nerf momentum/fel mastery or buff others to be competitive.

People still don't understand this. Momentum and Fel Mastery are not the problem. You need to use Fel Rush twice every 20s even without those two talents.

[Taygai]

People still don't understand this. Momentum and Fel Mastery are not the problem. You need to use Fel Rush twice every 20s even without those two talents.

Perhaps read the post after then.

Nerf fel rush damage, and allow the talents to carry it to higher damage, but please balance it so that other talents are valuable too.

They may not be the problem, but they're not helping the solution either. Momentum allows you to have burst windows, which DH is all about burst windows. We have a few CD's that are just on a short amount, and we can pool resources to take advantage of it. Nemesis only works for a minute then there is a minute window of not having it. Nemesis only increases damage by 20% where momentum does the same thing and we can keep momentum up ALOT more than nemesis in a long fight. Fel eruption is just not even close to either right now.

Fel mastery gives us more fury, which neither of the other two do. There isn't a whole lot of fights where chaos cleave is going to be more helpful over fel mastery, when we can easily just fel mastery and add to our fel rush, (even assuming fel rush damage gets nerfed, it'll still be better), and Blind Fury is only that more helpful with momentum windows.

The main culprit is in my opinion Momentum, followed by fel rush damage and fel mastery. Once those three are nerfed, I feel the other two talents in each tree will come alive. Blind Fury won't really peak unless you have Anguish of the Deceiver perk. Some are taking it as their first, while I am not, and I am closing in on it.

If people don't want it nerfed fine, but we need other things to come in line with it. If the other talents are a 1-3% difference, I will take what I want, but from a difference of 8% or more, I'm gonna start considering the better, because that is that much faster that boss will die, saving us the chance of a wipe, or saving time, etc. Honestly, I think they need nerfed, we're so far ahead of other dps in AoE besides windwalkers, they're not even remotely competitive with us.

- - - Updated - - -

I think people have gotten so used to other classes and how they have played over the years that they automatically assume FR is a mobility spell with damage to it, while it in fact is a damage spell with mobility.

I for one love the FR playstyle as it makes DH play different from any other class and wasn't the design idea of Legion to make specs feel unique? FR is a core mechanic of the DH and is something you just have to accept when you roll one. That's the same reason I stay away from any ranged class because I just don't like the core mechanics of ranged combat.



Just position yourself on the tank and FR towards the outer walls. FR has a huge hitbox.

And that's easily done, understandable and no complaints. There will be fights where we just can't fel rush though, because of mechanics. I'm still a believer in this "play how you want, the difference will be minor."

I remember them quoting a demon blades nerf and they wanted it to be the worst of the 3. I'm still waiting for it, but even then, I still take prepared over it, because with momentum VR, it might as well be a passive like demon blades.

[Not Againnn]

its the way it is because thats havoc's niche and class fantasy. a lot of moving around -- but if you can control that aspect of the class, you will thrive. 1 million dps aoe burst, pretty good single target damage with the ability to target swap very fast, and, we havent even started gearing up yet. the potential is there for a very fun time to be had. if you want to stand there and mash keys in one position and stare at timers, play something else, like feral or enh. dh is SUPPOSED to be very movement heavy, thats the skillset that you have to use and work with. no other class is like this.

[kliffharry]

Perhaps read the post after then.



They may not be the problem, but they're not helping the solution either. Momentum allows you to have burst windows, which DH is all about burst windows. We have a few CD's that are just on a short amount, and we can pool resources to take advantage of it. Nemesis only works for a minute then there is a minute window of not having it. Nemesis only increases damage by 20% where momentum does the same thing and we can keep momentum up ALOT more than nemesis in a long fight. Fel eruption is just not even close to either right now.

Fel mastery gives us more fury, which neither of the other two do. There isn't a whole lot of fights where chaos cleave is going to be more helpful over fel mastery, when we can easily just fel mastery and add to our fel rush, (even assuming fel rush damage gets nerfed, it'll still be better), and Blind Fury is only that more helpful with momentum windows.

The main culprit is in my opinion Momentum, followed by fel rush damage and fel mastery. Once those three are nerfed, I feel the other two talents in each tree will come alive. Blind Fury won't really peak unless you have Anguish of the Deceiver perk. Some are taking it as their first, while I am not, and I am closing in on it.

If people don't want it nerfed fine, but we need other things to come in line with it. If the other talents are a 1-3% difference, I will take what I want, but from a difference of 8% or more, I'm gonna start considering the better, because that is that much faster that boss will die, saving us the chance of a wipe, or saving time, etc. Honestly, I think they need nerfed, we're so far ahead of other dps in AoE besides windwalkers, they're not even remotely competitive with us.

- - - Updated - - -



And that's easily done, understandable and no complaints. There will be fights where we just can't fel rush though, because of mechanics. I'm still a believer in this "play how you want, the difference will be minor."

I remember them quoting a demon blades nerf and they wanted it to be the worst of the 3. I'm still waiting for it, but even then, I still take prepared over it, because with momentum VR, it might as well be a passive like demon blades.

Yeah there will definitely be fights or phases where FR could potentially kill you, and those that master the play style will stand out. But this discussion is about FR being part of the rotation and play style even without Fel Mastery, and the real problem is that people don't accept that FR is a part of the DH core rotation.

[Schizoide]

Nerf fel rush damage, and allow the talents to carry it to higher damage, but please balance it so that other talents are valuable too.

Yep, this is the obvious answer. I agree.

[Taygai]

Yeah there will definitely be fights or phases where FR could potentially kill you, and those that master the play style will stand out. But this discussion is about FR being part of the rotation and play style even without Fel Mastery, and the real problem is that people don't accept that FR is a part of the DH core rotation.

I agree, and I understand as above. My suggestion still stands as to nerf Fel Rush damage, and let the fel mastery or other talents carry it's damage. I don't want to remove the mobility play style, I can see why people like it, and at times it's fun for me, but I don't want it to become this specs core play style. I want it to be a niche, and I'm sure I'm not alone here. I will take a 5% damage hit because I don't raid in mythics and probably won't be pushing for mythic 10+, but if it's a 10% or even higher like it is now, I feel obligated to do the best I can for my group, because I know others are, and I feel guilty if I am not committed to doing my best when it's that large of a gap in damage between talents and using an ability and not using it.

[Not Againnn]

I agree, and I understand as above. My suggestion still stands as to nerf Fel Rush damage, and let the fel mastery or other talents carry it's damage. I don't want to remove the mobility play style, I can see why people like it, and at times it's fun for me, but I don't want it to become this specs core play style. I want it to be a niche, and I'm sure I'm not alone here. I will take a 5% damage hit because I don't raid in mythics and probably won't be pushing for mythic 10+, but if it's a 10% or even higher like it is now, I feel obligated to do the best I can for my group, because I know others are, and I feel guilty if I am not committed to doing my best when it's that large of a gap in damage between talents and using an ability and not using it.

but gutting class fantasy because "u dont mind a dps loss" is not the goal of legion. thats why they kept surrender to madness in the game...

[frozenkex]

I have no problem with fel rush at all, it is Vengeful retreat that is weird. If only Fel Blade was viable and dealt chaos damage, then that could be fun, but clumsily going inside boss hitboxes or some shit to not get too far out of melee range seems weird playstyle.