I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Taygai]

but gutting class fantasy because "u dont mind a dps loss" is not the goal of legion. thats why they kept surrender to madness in the game...

Then why have a talent choice at all? I'm pretty sure their goal of legion with talents was to give you a choice between a more passive, a more complicated or somewhere in the middle choice of talents.

Example? Demon blades. More of an example? Prepared. Even more of an example, Chaos Blades vs Barrage. Two different abilites with two very obvious goals. Single Target vs AoE.

The talent choices given this expansion are by play style and sometimes you may need AoE vs Single target.

But that is not the only decision here.

Because the first tier, lvl 99 is all AoE helpful.

Fel Mastery helps in both fury generation and damage with fel rush (which again, already does loads of damage), adding mobility. Chaos cleave, adds a more passive play style, in helping with a cleave situation if they're close enough. Blind Fury is more of a passive play style choice as well, but all are AoE.

I don't want them to gut class fantasy. I want them to give us a choice, like they said they would, like other specs very strongly get. We are not the only spec to have the problem we are having.

Simple suggestion still stands, nerf Fel Rush damage, but allow talents to bring it's damage up to where it is now, but also bring other talents in line, so it is not dominating every talent tier it's associated with.

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I have no problem with fel rush at all, it is Vengeful retreat that is weird. If only Fel Blade was viable and dealt chaos damage, then that could be fun, but clumsily going inside boss hitboxes or some shit to not get too far out of melee range seems weird playstyle.

I honestly wish Fel blade was as good as bloodlet. I don't like throwing glaives in melee range, it seems weird. I like having that extra button to press which may reset on your main builder. It's a little awkward, but I like the animation about it, honestly everything about it. I actually kinda wish it was base line.

[Not Againnn]

Then why have a talent choice at all? I'm pretty sure their goal of legion with talents was to give you a choice between a more passive, a more complicated or somewhere in the middle choice of talents.

Example? Demon blades. More of an example? Prepared. Even more of an example, Chaos Blades vs Barrage. Two different abilites with two very obvious goals. Single Target vs AoE.

The talent choices given this expansion are by play style and sometimes you may need AoE vs Single target.

But that is not the only decision here.

Because the first tier, lvl 99 is all AoE helpful.

Fel Mastery helps in both fury generation and damage with fel rush (which again, already does loads of damage), adding mobility. Chaos cleave, adds a more passive play style, in helping with a cleave situation if they're close enough. Blind Fury is more of a passive play style choice as well, but all are AoE.

I don't want them to gut class fantasy. I want them to give us a choice, like they said they would, like other specs very strongly get. We are not the only spec to have the problem we are having.

Simple suggestion still stands, nerf Fel Rush damage, but allow talents to bring it's damage up to where it is now, but also bring other talents in line, so it is not dominating every talent tier it's associated with.

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I honestly wish Fel blade was as good as bloodlet. I don't like throwing glaives in melee range, it seems weird. I like having that extra button to press which may reset on your main builder. It's a little awkward, but I like the animation about it, honestly everything about it. I actually kinda wish it was base line.

but... the class fantasy is to move around. why dont u get that?

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yall, watch this. the goal of DH was to be the movement damage guy

[Taygai]

but... the class fantasy is to move around. why dont u get that?

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yall, watch this. the goal of DH was to be the movement damage guy

You can't put an entire emphasis on a class that is mobile when there are fights that kill you because of that mobility, you and I both know that is not going to last. Although I have not done nighthold testing, I have heard rumors there is a fight or two in there, that you cannot zip around or else it'll cause a wipe or kill you and others in the process.

Thus choice, again, I'm not asking it to be gutted, I'm asking for choice. If choice cannot be presented, then remove talents. It's simple. You're not wrong what they said in the youtube video. Do bear in mind a few things they said in that video has changed, so it would not be unrealistic for them to change the fantasy or allow exceptions.

[Not Againnn]

You can't put an entire emphasis on a class that is mobile when there are fights that kill you because of that mobility, you and I both know that is not going to last. Although I have not done nighthold testing, I have heard rumors there is a fight or two in there, that you cannot zip around or else it'll cause a wipe or kill you and others in the process.

Thus choice, again, I'm not asking it to be gutted, I'm asking for choice. If choice cannot be presented, then remove talents. It's simple. You're not wrong what they said in the youtube video. Do bear in mind a few things they said in that video has changed, so it would not be unrealistic for them to change the fantasy or allow exceptions.

they arent going to implement change that goes again class fantasy. mobility builds will always do better because it is what the class is about.

[Taygai]

they arent going to implement change that goes again class fantasy. mobility builds will always do better because it is what the class is about.

So I guess compromise is not a word you're familiar with then. I seem to be talking to a brick wall. My conversation here is over, I've spoken my peace, and yet you're the only one who seems to combat it.

I guess we'll see how you fair in those fights where it punishes movement. Let me know how it holds up for you in 8 months.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I think you're right.

Such a failure in design though, what's the point of 3 talent choices in every tier when a set playstyle is still forced on you.

Play tank?

[Adoxe]

Then the class isn't for you. Why are you trying to force yourself to like a class that isn't designed to your liking? For every person that hates it, there's someone that loves it. It's no different from other classes having something to do that someone hates.

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So I guess compromise is not a word you're familiar with then. I seem to be talking to a brick wall. My conversation here is over, I've spoken my peace, and yet you're the only one who seems to combat it.

I guess we'll see how you fair in those fights where it punishes movement. Let me know how it holds up for you in 8 months.

Already been in plenty of those, still loving it. What now?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

So I guess compromise is not a word you're familiar with then. I seem to be talking to a brick wall. My conversation here is over, I've spoken my peace, and yet you're the only one who seems to combat it.

I guess we'll see how you fair in those fights where it punishes movement. Let me know how it holds up for you in 8 months.

People always misuse the word compromise. Like you seem to be doing. Some fights are anti-melee, and some will be anti-mobility. That doesn't mean Ret Paladins need a non-melee option though, just like a class/spec built around mobility doesn't need a non-mobile build either. You seem to like the DH enough to play it, but don't like the mobility facet; and that sucks, but thats the way it is.

[Taygai]

Then the class isn't for you. Why are you trying to force yourself to like a class that isn't designed to your liking? For every person that hates it, there's someone that loves it. It's no different from other classes having something to do that someone hates.

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Already been in plenty of those, still loving it. What now?

I just fail to understand why it's so hard to lower the damage on fel rush but amplify it in talents if that's the play style for you. Is that really affecting those who prefer that play style and are already taking those talents?

If it's really affecting you, in some odd fashion, then honestly I think you need to self evaluate before moving forward in life. That compares to you walking down the street, someone having an iphone, and you stop them in the middle of their walk to themselves, because you hate iphone, and you live and die by android, and you force them to take it back to get android.

Guess what? Some people can't take their iphones back. I can't take the time back I took to level my DH and prepare it, lock in my raid spot as one. It's just not pragmatic. I've already asked my RL to see if I could switch to another class, he said to wait until we're closer to raids. That puts me in a hard position where I spend time leveling another class to see if things change, and if they do, I've lost that time of artifact power grinding because I was leveling another character because I didn't expect them to change as those who think they won't.

In the case they don't change, then I have prepared and made my preparations, and I'm slightly far behind.

Either way I'm behind. Because hey, I thought blizzard was giving us a choice in how we wanted to play.


Btw, those movement heavy fights are going to either gut your raid or gut your dps, and it's not a small amount either. If your mythic raid leader can settle for that, then props to you, but if he can't, then I guess you rolled the wrong class. Sucks to be us?

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People always misuse the word compromise. Like you seem to be doing. Some fights are anti-melee, and some will be anti-mobility. That doesn't mean Ret Paladins need a non-melee option though, just like a class/spec built around mobility doesn't need a non-mobile build either. You seem to like the DH enough to play it, but don't like the mobility facet; and that sucks, but thats the way it is.

I'm not misusing the word compromise.

an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

I'm asking for an agreement to nerf fel rush damage, and allow those who like the mobility aspect to take the talent that buffs it to it's current degree (although I still think it's damage should be nerfed...we're doing incredible AoE. This isn't a hidden truth.)

This allows those who prefer mobility who are already taking those talents, to continue that playstyle and those who prefer not to use fel rush, do not have to.

That is the definition of compromise. Coming to an agreement, that both parties can be happy. As said earlier, if it bothers you so much that someone else is enjoying a playstyle that you aren't enjoying when it's not required for you to take that playstyle and both of you are competitive, I think you need to self-evaluate before you move forward.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I'm not misusing the word compromise.



I'm asking for an agreement to nerf fel rush damage, and allow those who like the mobility aspect to take the talent that buffs it to it's current degree (although I still think it's damage should be nerfed...we're doing incredible AoE. This isn't a hidden truth.)

This allows those who prefer mobility who are already taking those talents, to continue that playstyle and those who prefer not to use fel rush, do not have to.

That is the definition of compromise. Coming to an agreement, that both parties can be happy. As said earlier, if it bothers you so much that someone else is enjoying a playstyle that you aren't enjoying when it's not required for you to take that playstyle and both of you are competitive, I think you need to self-evaluate before you move forward.

That isn't a compromise on Blizzards part though. YOU aren't making any concessions in that scenario. You're misusing the word.

[Not Againnn]

THERE
IS
NO AGREEMENT/COMPROMISE

LOL

the ENTIRE POINT of dh is to be mobile. what is so hard to understand? they need to give mages a dot/melee spec because people don't like to hard cast spells?

[Beace]

Then the class isn't for you. Why are you trying to force yourself to like a class that isn't designed to your liking? For every person that hates it, there's someone that loves it. It's no different from other classes having something to do that someone hates.

We're not trying to take something away from you. Noone is saying they should remove the "mobility class fantasy". We're saying there should be an option. It doesn't even have to be an equal option, we're ok with it being slightly worse.

The players that like 90% of the DH class, but doesn't like Fel Rush as a rotational dps ability, should have a talent choice to alter that play style. I think quite a lot of us falls into this category. And as has been discussed, on some fights you won't be able to move around like you "need to" because of boss mechanics. Raiders should be able to pick other talents for those fights without completely gimping themselves.


I don't really buy the whole class fantasy argument. Sure class fantasy might be good and important and all that, but actual game play is more important.

[Not Againnn]

We're not trying to take something away from you. Noone is saying they should remove the "mobility class fantasy". We're saying there should be an option. It doesn't even have to be an equal option, we're ok with it being slightly worse.

The players that like 90% of the DH class, but doesn't like Fel Rush as a rotational dps ability, should have a talent choice to alter that play style. I think quite a lot of us falls into this category. And as has been discussed, on some fights you won't be able to move around like you "need to" because of boss mechanics. Raiders should be able to pick other talents for those fights without completely gimping themselves.


I don't really buy the whole class fantasy argument. Sure class fantasy might be good and important and all that, but actual game play is more important.

its like a hunter complaining he has to build focus...

fel rush is a dps ability. get over it or reroll. its easy

even if u spec out of it it REMAINS a dps ability on par rotationally.

[Taygai]

That isn't a compromise on Blizzards part though. YOU aren't making any concessions in that scenario. You're misusing the word.

I could say something witty like it's a compromise to keep my sub going, but nobody would care, and I don't need anybody to care.

As said, we'll see how the demon hunters who prefer mobility handle anti-mobility fights.

Yes there have and always will be anti-melee fights, but a fight that is anti-mobility is going to tank our dps to an incredible degree if fel rush is one of our highest damage abilities.

I'll keep playing demon hunter because the theme of the class, it's back story is what I've been waiting for since black temple, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with it it.

I still don't think blizzard is honoring their statement on offering play style choices. Having mobility and not is a play style choice. Just like spamming demons bite vs having the passive demon blades is.

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THERE
IS
NO AGREEMENT/COMPROMISE

LOL

the ENTIRE POINT of dh is to be mobile. what is so hard to understand? they need to give mages a dot/melee spec because people don't like to hard cast spells?

What about fights that punish mobility to an extent of causing a wipe or your death. Suffer your dps by 30% because you can't cast fel rush without causing a wipe? I'll be ready to hear the complaints when you get sat, and watch all the forum threads pop up saying their RL sat them because of it.

[Not Againnn]

I could say something witty like it's a compromise to keep my sub going, but nobody would care, and I don't need anybody to care.

As said, we'll see how the demon hunters who prefer mobility handle anti-mobility fights.

Yes there have and always will be anti-melee fights, but a fight that is anti-mobility is going to tank our dps to an incredible degree if fel rush is one of our highest damage abilities.

I'll keep playing demon hunter because the theme of the class, it's back story is what I've been waiting for since black temple, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with it it.

I still don't think blizzard is honoring their statement on offering play style choices. Having mobility and not is a play style choice. Just like spamming demons bite vs having the passive demon blades is.

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What about fights that punish mobility to an extent of causing a wipe or your death. Suffer your dps by 30% because you can't cast fel rush without causing a wipe? I'll be ready to hear the complaints when you get sat, and watch all the forum threads pop up saying their RL sat them because of it.

there is no fight in legion i know of that punishes dh movement.

can i have one example of such fight?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I could say something witty like it's a compromise to keep my sub going, but nobody would care, and I don't need anybody to care.

As said, we'll see how the demon hunters who prefer mobility handle anti-mobility fights.

Yes there have and always will be anti-melee fights, but a fight that is anti-mobility is going to tank our dps to an incredible degree if fel rush is one of our highest damage abilities.

I'll keep playing demon hunter because the theme of the class, it's back story is what I've been waiting for since black temple, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with it it.

I still don't think blizzard is honoring their statement on offering play style choices. Having mobility and not is a play style choice. Just like spamming demons bite vs having the passive demon blades is.

No, no one would care. Its a false, whiny, empty threat.

Anti-melee fights tank DPS for melee. Its a great example. It does warrant all melees having ranged talents.

Yes, they have honored their statement. Its fine if you don't agree.

[Beace]

its like a hunter complaining he has to build focus...

fel rush is a dps ability. get over it or reroll. its easy

even if u spec out of it it REMAINS a dps ability on par rotationally.

No it's not comparable to hunter focus. It's kinda comparable to using a pet or not. See how that went...

With current talents it obviously remains a dps ability regardless of your choices. The whole point of this argument is that we want talent adjustments to allow a play style that doesn't require quite as much mobility. And to repeat myself: this doesn't hurt you. More choices is a good thing for everyone.

[Taygai]

there is no fight in legion i know of that punishes dh movement.

can i have one example of such fight?

Tichondrius - Nighthold

Nythrendra - Emerald Nightmare (Rot), This fight can also be argued extremely favorable for DH's, from I understand it depends on your group strategy


We don't know anything about the karazhan dungeon nor Trials of Valor, so there may be additionals.

It should also be noted if you're in a mythic pug (heroics are becoming obsolete as the days go by), fel rushing in some fights have a chance of pulling trash or harming the fight further. While a smart player can get by this, if a group just refuses to pull trash, you'll be losing damage on that.

Regardless, this is without mythic knowledge and there could be more fights with mythic raids.

I'm trying to make a point. From a fantasy POV, fine, make it mobile, but from a mechanical standpoint, DH's are going to suffer if not be sat. If you're in a normal/heroic group, it probably won't matter, but have fun for those in mythic groups.

[Not Againnn]

No it's not comparable to hunter focus. It's kinda comparable to using a pet or not. See how that went...

With current talents it obviously remains a dps ability regardless of your choices. The whole point of this argument is that we want talent adjustments to allow a play style that doesn't require quite as much mobility. And to repeat myself: this doesn't hurt you. More choices is a good thing for everyone.

but the "choices" you want lead to gutting class fantasy -- which is not cool -- for people who cant do movement. if u cant do movement, there are a lot of other melee dps to choose from.

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Tichondrius - Nighthold

Nythrendra - Emerald Nightmare (Rot), This fight can also be argued extremely favorable for DH's, from I understand it depends on your group strategy


We don't know anything about the karazhan dungeon nor Trials of Valor, so there may be additionals.

It should also be noted if you're in a mythic pug (heroics are becoming obsolete as the days go by), fel rushing in some fights have a chance of pulling trash or harming the fight further. While a smart player can get by this, if a group just refuses to pull trash, you'll be losing damage on that.

Regardless, this is without mythic knowledge and there could be more fights with mythic raids.

I'm trying to make a point. From a fantasy POV, fine, make it mobile, but from a mechanical standpoint, DH's are going to suffer if not be sat. If you're in a normal/heroic group, it probably won't matter, but have fun for those in mythic groups.

how does tich punish movement?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

i cant with this thread. go play a sub rogue. whiners.

[Beace]

Class fantasy is not more important than game play.