I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Taygai]

No, no one would care. Its a false, whiny, empty threat.

Anti-melee fights tank DPS for melee. Its a great example. It does warrant all melees having ranged talents.

Yes, they have honored their statement. Its fine if you don't agree.

Prove to me they have honored their statement, you're here belittling me asking me to state and back up what I say. Lets hear it. Prove their comment that play style choice exists outside of demon blades vs demon bite. Momentum vs Nemesis.

Here's my other problem though. Demon speed grants us 2 charges of fel rush, so a defensive is connected to an offensive for our highest damage ability in AoE that isn't on a large CD? Seems odd, since when does any other DPS at this stage, have that drawback or you could look at it as a positive? Wouldn't they add extra functionality to fel rush into our artifact tree that isn't tied to another ability.

If the class is such a mobility focused class, why does none of our artifact tree except for one trait, point to mobility? One of our golden traits actually promotes a required stationary ability. If the class was so mobile, why isn't eye beam something you can channel while moving?

If they were forcing mobility down our throats, why is mastery not optimized to be our best secondary? Why is crit our best? You'd think if mobility was the aim of the spec, making mastery give us extra move speed, you'd think that'd be our primary stat, but it's not.

- - - Updated - - -

but the "choices" you want lead to gutting class fantasy -- which is not cool -- for people who cant do movement. if u cant do movement, there are a lot of other melee dps to choose from.

- - - Updated - - -



how does tich punish movement?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

i cant with this thread. go play a sub rogue. whiners.

Spreading carrion plague? Better hope none of the melee strafe in front of you as you fel rush.

You just want all DH's to be the same, don't you? I still fail to see why talents exist with your type of thinking. You might as well have every talent baked into our tree and call that fantasy.

What is a play style choice anyways? I mean not that I'm asking you, you probably haven't the slightest of clue. I assume your response would be "Something something, class fantasy."

I'd also like to add, gutting means removing.

Nerfing fel rush damage and giving you a talent that increases it's damage a substantial amount to make it a rotational ability, thus not requiring others to use fel rush, is not gutting. It's giving more choice. The fantasy can still exist, if you so choose. The class fantasy of a demon hunter is a mobile, agile and quick class. Mobility can still be achieved, but it does not have to be achieved as a rotational requirement to meet that fantasy. That is a fantasy you want. Pushing momentum ahead of other talents is not a fantasy blizzard wants, It's a playstyle they offer. I could argue many things about fantasy that does not just pertain to demon hunter and what blizzard said they were aiming for.

In short, fel rush does not need to be a rotational ability for everyone, and it does not gut the fantasy if it is not given as one. I still fail to see why play style choice is bad, if it doesn't affect you.

[AvCloudy]

If they were forcing mobility down our throats, why is mastery not optimized to be our best secondary? Why is crit our best? You'd think if mobility was the aim of the spec, making mastery give us extra move speed, you'd think that'd be our primary stat, but it's not.

Why would they make mastery a good stat when they could just cram it down our fucking throats when it's crap? Our artifact weapons have crit/mastery on them when mastery is our worst stat.

It's too unbalancing an effect. Either mastery is competitive based on damage and demon hunters get a passive speed boost higher than druids or it's not and demon hunters avoid it like the plague.

I think it would be nice if we got a talent replacement for Demon's Blade that took the damage off Fel Rush and added it in somewhere else, but honestly at the moment this is just what the class is. You can argue all you like that because the artifact isn't directly promoting this gameplay it isn't the intention but it is, regardless. If you don't want to play like this, this isn't the class for you.

[Nezia]

This isn't a complaint about momentum talent, it's about the rotational use of fel rush being rammed down demon hunters throats, or you do 30% less damage making you a dud when it comes to raids.

Yeah, it's pretty terrible when blizzard does these things, just look at fire mages, they have to keep casting those silly fireballs or they will do no damage on the long run, I mean... I did not spec into fire mage to cast fireballs, it's something that blizzard rammed down our throats.

Seriously... I pray this wave of "Me wanna be Illidan but me don't like the gameplay" dont become so big, or it will destroy the class.

[Thelxi]

Thinking about it some more, I'm not convinced that Blizzard intended it to be a core single target rotational skill. They would not add a tier 1 talent that increases the damage of such a skill by 50% AND makes it generate fury, making this tier 1 talent completely mandatory for any and all builds. If anything it seems to me that Blizzard intended for this talent to do exactly what many people want: have it make fel rush viable to use on single target. We will have to wait and see.

[Taygai]

Why would they make mastery a good stat when they could just cram it down our fucking throats when it's crap? Our artifact weapons have crit/mastery on them when mastery is our worst stat.

It's too unbalancing an effect. Either mastery is competitive based on damage and demon hunters get a passive speed boost higher than druids or it's not and demon hunters avoid it like the plague.

I think it would be nice if we got a talent replacement for Demon's Blade that took the damage off Fel Rush and added it in somewhere else, but honestly at the moment this is just what the class is. You can argue all you like that because the artifact isn't directly promoting this gameplay it isn't the intention but it is, regardless. If you don't want to play like this, this isn't the class for you.

Artifact secondaries could've easily been handled before launch. Putting mastery on them and scaling mastery higher and having abilities properly interact with mastery more than just chaos damage.

The excuse "This class isn't for you," doesn't work for everyone. Some people are so deep into the demon hunter class their spot is locked. As said before, I asked my RL if the possibility of swapping was reasonable, he asked me to wait until closer to raids. Couple scenarios I've already explained in the last page that each have a risky outcome, but neither reward unless fel rush damage is brought down baseline.

The fights I was commenting on earlier punishing DH's were normal/heroic only. I can't even imagine mythic on some.

[Beace]

Yeah, it's pretty terrible when blizzard does these things, just look at fire mages, they have to keep casting those silly fireballs or they will do no damage on the long run, I mean... I did not spec into fire mage to cast fireballs, it's something that blizzard rammed down our throats.

I just keep seeing the dumbest comparisons in this thread, that isn't even remotely similar to what we're talking about.

[Taygai]

Thinking about it some more, I'm not convinced that Blizzard intended it to be a core single target rotational skill. They would not add a tier 1 talent that increases the damage of such a skill by 50% AND makes it generate fury, making this tier 1 talent completely mandatory for any and all builds. If anything it seems to me that Blizzard intended for this talent to do exactly what many people want: have it make fel rush viable to use on single target. We will have to wait and see.

I'm waiting to see Anguish of the Deceiver and related eye beam traits to see how much of a difference blind fury will make. It's on a 45s CD but it can be lowered with a trait as well. And if it becomes competitive, it will hopefully push demonic appetite up to lower it's CD even more on single target. I imagine AoE it's going to be quite amazing.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, it's pretty terrible when blizzard does these things, just look at fire mages, they have to keep casting those silly fireballs or they will do no damage on the long run, I mean... I did not spec into fire mage to cast fireballs, it's something that blizzard rammed down our throats.

Seriously... I pray this wave of "Me wanna be Illidan but me don't like the gameplay" dont become so big, or it will destroy the class.

I don't think this comparison is the same.

The appropriate comparison would be comparing it to demons bite vs demons blade, but for the most part that tier is fairly even unless you take momentum. Fel rush is a base line ability., but not something we use as a filler like demons bite.

[Thelxi]

I'm waiting to see Anguish of the Deceiver and related eye beam traits to see how much of a difference blind fury will make. It's on a 45s CD but it can be lowered with a trait as well. And if it becomes competitive, it will hopefully push demonic appetite up to lower it's CD even more on single target. I imagine AoE it's going to be quite amazing.

Those are my thoughts as well, a build focused on eye beam instead of fel rush. The legendary head would also help with that.

[Nezia]

that isn't even remotely similar to what we're talking about.

Why? Because you don't want it to be?

It's pretty simple: if you don't wanna cast stuff then don't play a mage, if you don't wanna move around the enemies all the time then don't play a demon hunter, if you don't wanna keep track of dots then don't play an affli warlock, if you don't like pets then don't play unholy dks or bm hunters... The list goes on.

[Beace]

Why? Because you don't want it to be?

It's pretty simple: if you don't wanna cast stuff then don't play a mage, if you don't wanna move around the enemies all the time then don't play a demon hunter, if you don't wanna keep track of dots then don't play an affli warlock, if you don't like pets then don't play unholy dks or bm hunters... The list goes on.

I would think it's pretty damn obvious, but ok let me explain. The examples you give are the absolute basics and musts for their spec. Affliction warlocks are built around dots, fire mages are built around fire ball, etc. Their class and spec wouldn't work without it.

DH Havoc is a melee spec with an emphasis on movement. It doesn't have to force you to Fel Rush around your enemy every 10 seconds to work. It can still be a mobile melee spec without that. All it would take is some adjustments to the talents. No adjustment of talents would make a fire mage not cast fire balls.

There's also the fact that DH only has 1 dps spec. It's not unreasonable to give that 1 dps spec, a few different play styles through talent choices. All the examples you've been bringing up has 3 specs to choose from, and might not require such a thing from their talents to such an extent.


Now maybe you don't agree with me. Maybe you think that DH Havoc should only have 1 play style available to them. You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But stop with the senseless comparisons.

[Deleted]

I absolutely adore the Fel Rushing playstyle. Completely unique and so much more exciting than the usual turret 1-2-3-2-3 repeat.

What I DON'T like about Fel Rush is being DCd about 3 times every 30 mins whenever the game doesn't like the pathing. It's getting reallllly old, especially as I'm almost always dead when I relog.

Unique? Wod ww monk would like to tell you all about chi torpedo

[Nezia]

I would think it's pretty damn obvious, but ok let me explain. The examples you give are the absolute basics and musts for their spec. Affliction warlocks are built around dots, fire mages are built around fire ball, etc. Their class and spec wouldn't work without it.

DH Havoc is a melee spec with an emphasis on movement. It doesn't have to force you to Fel Rush around your enemy every 10 seconds to work. It can still be a mobile melee spec without that. All it would take is some adjustments to the talents. No adjustment of talents would make a fire mage not cast fire balls.

There's also the fact that DH only has 1 dps spec. It's not unreasonable to give that 1 dps spec, a few different play styles through talent choices. All the examples you've been bringing up has 3 specs to choose from, and might not require such a thing from their talents to such an extent.

And that's why DHs should have 3 specs, I have been saying this on forums since this 2 specs nonsense was announced, but everytime I tried to a 'legion' of fanboys would come and repeat that "focus on class fantasy" nonsense. To me, to many others, and it seems that to blizzard too, havoc is about using movement to deal damage as much as a bm hunter is about using pets.

Even if by chance they give havoc a static playstile for the ones who don't enjoy the 2 fel rushes every 20 seconds(not one every 10 seconds), the fel rush playstyle would still have to be stronger. What would be the point of playing something that can get you killed if you mess up if there is an easier and safer option?

[Narzok]

I think a more apt description would be "I don't like Poison and bleed effect, but love rogue". And rogues do have options that involve little or no poisons/bleeds.

sure, but i was referring to assa in particular because the bleed / poison style is as much it's fantasy as zipping around is havoc's fantasy, at least according to the devs.

And the rogue has multiple dps styles, while the demon hunter has only one, so if you want to dps as DH, it's sink or swim, deal with havoc and it'S gameplay or change class.

[Schizoide]

Even if by chance they give havoc a static playstile for the ones who don't enjoy the 2 fel rushes every 20 seconds(not one every 10 seconds), the fel rush playstyle would still have to be stronger. What would be the point of playing something that can get you killed if you mess up if there is an easier and safer option?

Yes, and that would be absolutely fine. The extra risk and effort involved with repositioning rotationally should be rewarded. But that reward should be ~5%, so it presents a valid choice. Right now it's 20%, and you can't choose to do 20% less damage. If you do 20% less damage, you suck.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Tichondrius - Nighthold

Nythrendra - Emerald Nightmare (Rot), This fight can also be argued extremely favorable for DH's, from I understand it depends on your group strategy

Two fights................

- - - Updated - - -

Prove to me they have honored their statement, you're here belittling me asking me to state and back up what I say. Lets hear it. Prove their comment that play style choice exists outside of demon blades vs demon bite. Momentum vs Nemesis.

Here's my other problem though. Demon speed grants us 2 charges of fel rush, so a defensive is connected to an offensive for our highest damage ability in AoE that isn't on a large CD? Seems odd, since when does any other DPS at this stage, have that drawback or you could look at it as a positive? Wouldn't they add extra functionality to fel rush into our artifact tree that isn't tied to another ability.

If the class is such a mobility focused class, why does none of our artifact tree except for one trait, point to mobility? One of our golden traits actually promotes a required stationary ability. If the class was so mobile, why isn't eye beam something you can channel while moving?

If they were forcing mobility down our throats, why is mastery not optimized to be our best secondary? Why is crit our best? You'd think if mobility was the aim of the spec, making mastery give us extra move speed, you'd think that'd be our primary stat, but it's not.

1. You just proved it yourself. You have choices. It doesn't matter that you don't like them/want different choices.

2. Just because artifacts don't have tons of mobility traits don't disprove anything.

3. Stat priorities aren't something I'd even look at yet considering its so early in the expansion.

4. "Aim of the spec" doesn't mean every facet of the spec should be based around something. It just part of the kit/fantasy.

- - - Updated - - -

Thinking about it some more, I'm not convinced that Blizzard intended it to be a core single target rotational skill. They would not add a tier 1 talent that increases the damage of such a skill by 50% AND makes it generate fury, making this tier 1 talent completely mandatory for any and all builds. If anything it seems to me that Blizzard intended for this talent to do exactly what many people want: have it make fel rush viable to use on single target. We will have to wait and see.

I dunno, its not as if some specs/classes have tiers where there is only 1 real viable option...

[MrHappy]

jumping around, dashing, slashing and being an overall ninja is what the fantasy of a DH is. You are highly agile warrior whose specialty is cleaving down your foes with great accuracy and swiftness given your unholy sight.

Using dash offensively is the whole dam point. That's like complaining an affliction warlock has too many dots or prot warrior replies on block too much.
Now dear OP you have three choices

1) accept that to be a great demon hunter you will need to use VR/Dash as your rotation and zip around the fight all the time to be effective
2) be an average DH and just play how you want and accept that you will never do top tier DPS
3) Not play DH

[Deleted]

Personally I would be happy with Fel Rush as my only ability but with no cooldown.

[Taygai]

Two fights................

- - - Updated - - -



1. You just proved it yourself. You have choices. It doesn't matter that you don't like them/want different choices.

2. Just because artifacts don't have tons of mobility traits don't disprove anything.

3. Stat priorities aren't something I'd even look at yet considering its so early in the expansion.

4. "Aim of the spec" doesn't mean every facet of the spec should be based around something. It just part of the kit/fantasy.

- - - Updated - - -



I dunno, its not as if some specs/classes have tiers where there is only 1 real viable option...

Then why are you here trying to force mobility down everyones throats. The two fights I listed are normal/heroic. I didn't have the time to review mythic. Believe me, I expect there to be ALOT of fights that punish mobility on mythic.

[Lucrece]

Fel Rush is fine.

Vengeful Retreat is the fucking cancer, especially on smaller hit box mobs.

Momentum's buff duration should stack so you could combine vengeful retreat with fel rush into target.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Then why are you here trying to force mobility down everyones throats. The two fights I listed are normal/heroic. I didn't have the time to review mythic. Believe me, I expect there to be ALOT of fights that punish mobility on mythic.

You listed 2 out of how many fights again?