New Simcraft is out

[BiggestNoob]

but there's pages and pages of calculations involved, you cant just say it's not proof when it provides detailed statistics of every little thing that makes up the dps, that consitutites as proof, as i said before just because you dont like the proof doesnt mean it's not there

No. You can do all the calculations you want, if you haven't proven that what you're doing is actually accurate, it literally has no bearing on this discussion. String Theory is like 20+ different theories based on complicated calculations including regularizations which aren't even generally accepted in the mathematics community, and they're largely frowned upon due to their speculative nature. They can't be tested for validity, they're unverifiable, which means they aren't good candidates for a scientific theory. And that certainly doesn't make them "proof" or evidence. They're a theory, an untestable one. What you have is a theory, and it can easily be proven or disproven, but not a single person is trying to prove it. Quite a few people are just asserting that it's true, just like religious zealots do about their religious nonsense. No evidence, pure faith.

LoL at people saying that Simulation and DATA isnt proof...You also dont belive in global warming do you?

It's not data, it's a claim.

If you were to predict what was going to happen due to climate change, you'd have made a claim. You could present all the projected "data" you want but it'd still just be "this is what I think is going to happen." That doesn't make it proof or correct. An Inconvenient Truth tried this and just about every single prediction it made has been false. Luckily we don't have to just "wait and see" in WoW, since all of this is fairly basic math and Blizzard generally explains how class mechanics work in great detail. But nobody has bothered proving it to be accurate, so I'll do my job and sit here and point out that it's bullshit until someone does, because we know already that much about this list is false.

[mistahwilshire]

So these sims are broken, yet what you say is true. Where is your data to back it up?

Interesting figures considering we have no actual data to go with.

What the fuck? We have over a dozen previous tiers to go by..

The disparity from top and bottom always ends up being around 15-20%, based on every past tier. How is that hard to grasp? Stupid fucking people around here.

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Some specs do way too much AoE on trash IMO. wheres the trash simcraft.

Right because AoE dps balance on trash is so fucking important we should care. What a retarded complaint.

[Deleted]

If this is true, I have to thank Blizzard for nerfing Unholy DK mobility, we will feel strong when on target (not). Specially when all melees with more mobility will outdps us on a Patchwerk fight.

I start to feel that I made the wrong choice picking DK for main in Legion. Sucks that I'm already on rank 16 on my artifact.

Are you me?

[cFortyfive]

That is the nature of simulations...

the nature of simulations includes for instance badly optimized rotations and gear ?

What the fuck? We have over a dozen previous tiers to go by..

Previous tiers ? Who gives a shit given the changing landscape ? If that's the case go play wod survival you pleb.

[mistahwilshire]

Previous tiers ? Who gives a shit given the changing landscape ? If that's the case go play wod survival you pleb.

What a ridiculously fucking stupid response. The landscape changes every expansion and the disparity between top and bottom is always relatively the same. It isn't fucking rocket science you autist. You're clearly far too retarded to even participate in this discussion.

Infracted

[Staalsy]

Took one look at balance druid stats: 1.15% haste.

Lol. This chart is ass.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[cFortyfive]

What a ridiculously fucking stupid response. The landscape changes every expansion and the disparity between top and bottom is always relatively the same. It isn't fucking rocket science you autist. You're clearly far too retarded to even participate in this discussion.

Sure you retarded subhuman again play wod survival in your lfr group. http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18M.html and actual logs usually turn out to show even more of an discrepancy. This time around there are even more moving parts involved with artifact traits and legandaries being not fully unlocked but sure it's going to be 15% hurrdurr without even waiting and looking into actual data.

Infracted

[KampKanye]

You're so clueless L M F A O, dks at the current state are beyond op, you must be doing something wrong to not be satisfied/actually believe at those sims(which have NEVER ever been accurate).

I run with an uhdk friend and arms warrior friend. The arms usually won on single, but they were trading places on aoe. That was until the arms realized he was using warbearer all wrong and not taking advantage of the CS debuff it added.

[clevin]

the people who are salty about this probably main the bottom 5 classes?

balance is impossible.

they can't balance on a patchwork fight with tier after 12 years, they should quit. No one is asking for perfect balance but within 5-10% on this kind of fight is absolutely something we should expect. On specific fights things will vary but overall for a raid no one should feel like they're not worth bringing assuming they play their spec well and are in competitive gear

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im sorry but you sound like a creationist, HOW IS SIMCRAFT NOT PROOF?

Because it's a SIMULATION. Until we can compare it against actual logs by top players, it's a claim, not proof. Learn the difference between simulations and measurements.

[stevenho]

Meaningless numbers.
Wait for logs of actual fights.

[shaunika123]

they can't balance on a patchwork fight with tier after 12 years, they should quit. No one is asking for perfect balance but within 5-10% on this kind of fight is absolutely something we should expect. On specific fights things will vary but overall for a raid no one should feel like they're not worth bringing assuming they play their spec well and are in competitive gear

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Because it's a SIMULATION. Until we can compare it against actual logs by top players, it's a claim, not proof. Learn the difference between simulations and measurements.

until we have actual logs simulationcraft is the only thing we can go by, and based on my experiences so far it's roughly accurate

all it does is confirm what im seeing (well except for feral druids of which i didnt see a single one)

obviously it doesnt mean that those classes will be the best in that order, because raid fights dont work the way sims do, but that doesnt mean the sim isnt accurate it just means it shows a data that isnt ment to be taken literally.

i mean im already above the ilvl they sim at so obviously it isnt the most accurate thing, but it was never supposed to be, it's just a guideline

i mean do you actually think ele shamans dont suck and outlaw rogues and fire mages arent fantastic?

[Schizoide]

Meaningless numbers.
Wait for logs of actual fights.

Yep. I really wish the simcraft guys would stop posting that chart. The developers know how much damage they cause, yet they persist in posting data they are completely aware does not even come close to aligning to actual raid rankings.

[TheRogue]

I love the insanity sims cause before people get in to raids....

[Tradu]

Yep. I really wish the simcraft guys would stop posting that chart. The developers know how much damage they cause, yet they persist in posting data they are completely aware does not even come close to aligning to actual raid rankings.

The point of posting it is to have lots of people look at it and hopefully find things wrong with it so those things can be fixed. And to the people complaining about bad gear setups/APLs: you only have your own class/spec community/theorycrafters to blame for that.

[Holofernes]

i love that people choose their class by some nerdy fat ass theorycrafter that is writing random Priority lists (which are very often wrong) for a little programm that doesnt factor in anything of importance.

Why listen to the most retarded , snobistic and nutty ,and very often biased type of guys that make those simcraft profiles?

Just ignore those guys i f u dont want to resocket and reenchant every few days.

What theorycrafters are doing to stupid people:
i Had a holy paladin in grp today that resistet to take 835 warforged boots from me over his 805 he was wearing, because "crit is king".

Yeah 300 crit vs 200 int, 700 haste, 1,1 k mastery and 300 stamina, but hell yea, crit is king.

[Deleted]

i love that people choose their class by some nerdy fat ass theorycrafter that is writing random Priority lists (which are very often wrong) for a little programm that doesnt factor in anything of importance.

Why listen to the most retarded , snobistic and nutty ,and very often biased type of guys that make those simcraft profiles?

Just ignore those guys i f u dont want to resocket and reenchant every few days.

What theorycrafters are doing to stupid people:
i Had a holy paladin in grp today that resistet to take 835 warforged boots from me over his 805 he was wearing, because "crit is king".

Yeah 300 crit vs 200 int, 700 haste, 1,1 k mastery and 300 stamina, but hell yea, crit is king.

Ah yes, simcraft is at fault because of retarded people like the one you described. Thanks for the input.

[Tradu]

i love that people choose their class by some nerdy fat ass theorycrafter that is writing random Priority lists (which are very often wrong) for a little programm that doesnt factor in anything of importance.

Why listen to the most retarded , snobistic and nutty ,and very often biased type of guys that make those simcraft profiles?

Just ignore those guys i f u dont want to resocket and reenchant every few days.

What theorycrafters are doing to stupid people:
i Had a holy paladin in grp today that resistet to take 835 warforged boots from me over his 805 he was wearing, because "crit is king".

Yeah 300 crit vs 200 int, 700 haste, 1,1 k mastery and 300 stamina, but hell yea, crit is king.

Sure, that guy was an idiot, but spoiler: ilevel upgrades aren't always actual upgrades(a prime example of this is current Shadow or Highmaul Survival)

[xrayEU]

Brb swapping my scythe for feral daggers.

[magussama]

wow unholy dk is at bottom big shock for me thought they would be at least top 5 easily

[Ahovv]

Sims need to be taken for what they are: only part of the picture. Of course no real fight is a straight up patchwerk, but it does give some indication of how a spec performs. Similarly anecdotes of "this lock was really bad in a dungeon I was in" is only part of it.

Sims are also limited by the actual input priorities. Back in WoD there were multiple priorities skewed with Arcane Mage and Prophecy of Fear. I tweaked these in and got higher sims than the existing preset.

Are the sims likely to be off by huge percentages? Probably not. Are they accurate? Only as accurate as the input, and that's hard to tell without examining every specialization.