I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Bullettime]

jumping around, dashing, slashing and being an overall ninja is what the fantasy of a DH is. You are highly agile warrior whose specialty is cleaving down your foes with great accuracy and swiftness given your unholy sight.

Using dash offensively is the whole dam point. That's like complaining an affliction warlock has too many dots or prot warrior replies on block too much.
Now dear OP you have three choices

1) accept that to be a great demon hunter you will need to use VR/Dash as your rotation and zip around the fight all the time to be effective
2) be an average DH and just play how you want and accept that you will never do top tier DPS
3) Not play DH

The problem isn't so much Fel Rush as it is Vengeful Retreat's awkwardness and inconsistency with the varying sizes of enemy hit boxes.

edit: It doesn't help that Fel Rush itself is fairly buggy and gets hung up on the stupidest of things, won't dash, terrain clips causing disconnects, etc.

[Deleted]

Failure design because OP can't play it PogChamp

[Not Againnn]

Failure design because OP can't play it PogChamp

this is it. end the thread.

[Taygai]

You listed 2 out of how many fights again?

2 out of normal/heroic? Did you forget mythic was a difficulty in this game?

EDIT: Star Augur is an obvious choice. It should need no explanation needed why.

out of 16 fights, 3 (questionably 4) are blatantly anti-mobility fights just reading from the fight strategies. This could also differ from how your RL wants to handle mechanics and if they want you zipping around or not.

Understandably this is only a small amount, 25% of the fights in this tier, not counting trials of valor are already hindering DH's specifically to a great amount. It's already been discussed how much of our damage fel rush is not to mention momentum+bloodlet makes for a lot of our competitive dps as well. If you don't mind getting sat because your dps suffers from anti-mobility, by all means play a DH.

As I said, I don't plan on quitting this class, but as a main, I might sit it out, because I really don't want that possibility to be a reality for me. I'm also not a fan of fel rush, and I fail to STILL see why giving us a choice of having fel rush a rotational ability or not is hindering anyone elses fantasy, but if it bothers you that much, feel free to complain and stand up for the class.

We'll see how it plays out, and if they ruin your fantasy, just know that if you quit playing DH others will begin to enjoy it. Either way, I understand why those enjoy fel rush as a rotational do, but that doesn't take away the fact it's a 50/50 fight right now between those who enjoy it and those who don't.

I have other things I need to do, I've wasted enough time here combating with those who have so selfish they don't want others to have the option to play something even though it would not impact them.

[Not Againnn]

dude we have all said it numerous times.

fel rush IS THE DESIGN THEY WANT. momentum wouldnt be a talent choice if they didnt want to focus the class on movement. nemesis is there for you, along with blind fury and demon blades.

we are making the very exaggerated comparisons to aid you.

if u dont want to cast dots, dont play an affliction lock.
if u dont like to hard cast spells, dont play an arcane mage
if you dont like to zip around, dont play a demon hunter
if you dont like pets, dont play a bm hunter
if you dont like healing via hots, dont play a resto druid
if you dont like managing energy, dont play a sub rogue

the choice is there. the choice is to play another class.

they shouldnt cater every talent to combat somebodies inability to play the spec.


and you do have the option to not use fel rush, but you wont be getting into mythics that way.

go back and watch the panel i posted. they show off fel rush as a dps ability first, THEN show you what u can do with it out of combat.

and in regards to the "anti mobility" fights; pretty much every class has a few fights where they cant use their abilities to the fullest potential. its called balancing.

[RedNight at MMOC]

I can easily Fel Rush on cooldown with the build I use (different from Icy Veins recommended build because I hate Momentum), and can save a charge if needed. If you do not want to or cannot get use to using Fel Rush on cooldown, then do not pick Fel Mastery. If you feel like Fel Mastery is THE ONLY choice to take, then I suggest finding another class you like.

[Bullettime]

Just my opinion but a few things to note.

1. Yes, Demon Hunters are supposed to be the fast agile dash and slash spec for the game.

2. That doesn't necessarily mean the gap has to be as wide between that playstyle as it may end up being. I haven't seen much sim info but just talking theoretically. It's fine for Fel Mastery to be the best for class fantasy purposes, but also that doesn't mean it has to be massively ahead of the other two options if it is, which currently is the case. Also that if this is the main argument being used, things like First Blood and Felblade should be better than they are since they fit this theme as well whereas Bloodlet does not but is the best at everything by far.

3. Fel Rush isn't even the real problem. Demonic Appetite only really works for a mega Eye Beam build and isn't even amazing there, and Demon Blades is Demon Blades. Vengeful Retreat being a core rotational skill I would argue is a better issue than Fel Rush given Vengeful Retreat is inconsistent as fuck and can be extremely awkward based on the size of the mob. It works great for large hit box targets like big bosses but is awful feeling for smaller targets. Fel Rush is much easier and less awkward to use, but still has some mobility bugs like stopping the animation on tiny cracks and terrain clipping into disconnects.

In short, I think more attention should be put on VR than FR, and talents could arguably be tuned a bit closer together with the full blown mobile offense set being the optimal best if maintained properly due to being harder to play and fitting the class fantasy better. Optimal doesn't have to mean "chasm of difference" though like it currently seems to be in certain tiers.

[Nezia]

and in regards to the "anti mobility" fights; pretty much every class has a few fights where they cant use their abilities to the fullest potential. its called balancing.

Finally someone has said it. That's the handicap of the class which is completely fine, UH dks have a handicap on fast target switching, arcane mages have a handicap on high mobility fights, BM hunters have a handicap on switching targets between targets who are too far away from one another. And guess what? THAT'S OK!

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I have other things I need to do, I've wasted enough time here combating with those who have so selfish they don't want others to have the option to play something even though it would not impact them.

It impacts people that like the current talents. Selfish? Thats your whole reason for wanting change. To give you what you want, something must be taken.

Just quit the class and everyone is happy. THERE, thats compromise.

[Bullettime]

It impacts people that like the current talents. Selfish? Thats your whole reason for wanting change. To give you what you want, something must be taken.

Just quit the class and everyone is happy. THERE, thats compromise.

I don't think anyone is really asking for the Momentum playstyle to get nerfed though. The problem right now is that other varieties aren't up to snuff at all, aside from a swap to Nemesis.

Nothing says that the other options have to be the best way either. Just that right now Demon Hunters are mobility or bust and current Havoc talents are more of an illusion of choice with a right and wrong way to play, trap talents in each row, and certain talents finding themselves obsolete even in their niche by other more general talents.

- - - Updated - - -

Going to also state that while I do think the dash and slash style should be the most optimal way to play due to fitting class fantasy, there's also contradictions to that in our own grid with things like Felblade and First Blood being awful as well which should be great picks if that's going to be the argument. There's also the fact that Blizzard has put in ways to opt out of other Demon Hunter aesthetic elements for those who like the gameplay, along with other classes and specializations having sort of "opt out" mechanics such as Combat being able to opt out of the pirate theme and still be fine.

So while I do agree with the argument itself, there's also other things Blizzard has done that clash with that. The ideal class fantasy set should be optimal, yes, but other variants shouldn't be considered totally dead and all talents that support them dead end traps either.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I don't think anyone is really asking for the Momentum playstyle to get nerfed though. The problem right now is that other varieties aren't up to snuff at all, aside from a swap to Nemesis.

Nothing says that the other options have to be the best way either. Just that right now Demon Hunters are mobility or bust and current Havoc talents are more of an illusion of choice with a right and wrong way to play, trap talents in each row, and certain talents finding themselves obsolete even in their niche by other more general talents.

Most talents are like that for most classes though. If every single tier on every single class except Havoc had a great choice... I'd say its an issue. But the fact of the matter is... most tiers are dependent upon: pvp/pve, item level, raids/dungeons, wpvp, arena/bgs... thats just how it is... I played a Lock in MoP and you really only had one talent choice for the majority of the tier, because the rest were so situational.

Perfect balance between choices will never really happen. Its like complaining about BM using pets... well switch specs then. Play the tank spec. Play a class that doesn't need mobility. There are so many fights that gimp melee or ranged in general, that its a ridiculous argument to bring up Havoc mobility SOMETIMES gimping dps. Again, DHs aren't singled out here, and demanding a change in talents will take a current one away from others, and will change the direction of the class. Surv Hunters are melee, thats how it is... if you don't like that, change specs.. whining about "non-mele compromises" is ridiculous.

[Taygai]

It impacts people that like the current talents. Selfish? Thats your whole reason for wanting change. To give you what you want, something must be taken.

Just quit the class and everyone is happy. THERE, thats compromise.

Except I'm not when the class I want to play is plagued by mobility when it offers talents that aren't mobility focused. Just because you're happy doesn't mean everyone is.

I never asked for current talents to be nerfed (other than bloodlet because we both know it's doing more damage in both single target and AoE than the other two when paired with master of the glaive, which is a utility tier for the most part).

What I asked was for fel rush damage to be nerfed, and let fel mastery take it's damage to the height it's at now. Thus not requiring people to use it as a rotational. Right now it gives a 50% damage buff to fel rush. In my current gear, fel rush is approximately 81k damage and with fel mastery it does 122k. This is tooltip value, not affected by any other buffs.

Why not nerf Fel rush baseline by 50% and change fel mastery to give it another 200% damage increase. If my math is right that would put it right about where it is now with fel mastery, and thus making it's damage slightly lower than demons bite. And hey, fel mastery would still give fury!! Everybody wins!

Is this not a compromise that can be made without altering your preferred mobility play style? Making it a comparable choice to chaos cleave and blind fury?

If Fel mastery is already a talent you're taking, I don't understand why a change like this would impact you. You as a person. You as sole person, no one else. Ask yourself, would it really? And if it does, how? Answer that before replying.

[Not Againnn]

Except I'm not when the class I want to play is plagued by mobility when it offers talents that aren't mobility focused. Just because you're happy doesn't mean everyone is.

I never asked for current talents to be nerfed (other than bloodlet because we both know it's doing more damage in both single target and AoE than the other two when paired with master of the glaive, which is a utility tier for the most part).

What I asked was for fel rush damage to be nerfed, and let fel mastery take it's damage to the height it's at now. Thus not requiring people to use it as a rotational. Right now it gives a 50% damage buff to fel rush. In my current gear, fel rush is approximately 81k damage and with fel mastery it does 122k. This is tooltip value, not affected by any other buffs.

Why not nerf Fel rush baseline by 50% and change fel mastery to give it another 200% damage increase. If my math is right that would put it right about where it is now with fel mastery, and thus making it's damage slightly lower than demons bite. And hey, fel mastery would still give fury!! Everybody wins!

Is this not a compromise that can be made without altering your preferred mobility play style? Making it a comparable choice to chaos cleave and blind fury?

If Fel mastery is already a talent you're taking, I don't understand why a change like this would impact you. You as a person. You as sole person, no one else. Ask yourself, would it really? And if it does, how? Answer that before replying.

fel rush is to be used on cooldown just like chaos strike. get with it bro. not changing.

[Taygai]

fel rush is to be used on cooldown just like chaos strike. get with it bro. not changing.

Someone doesn't like to read. Can you prove to me it won't change? Oh great farseer, what vision have you had today? Please enlighten us on the quotes and knowledge of such things? Oh right, you play a DH, you don't have the capability of proving it won't.

Sorry, wrong forum.

[Toroc]

I'm so sick of players saying that <insert skillcap talent or whatever here> is a bad design because they suck at it.

Get. Over. Yourself.

Sounds like a lot of you need to roll your old classes which isn't a bad thing.

[Taygai]

I'm so sick of players saying that <insert skillcap talent or whatever here> is a bad design because they suck at it.

Get. Over. Yourself.

Sounds like a lot of you need to roll your old classes which isn't a bad thing.

I think there's a slight difference in choice of play style and just simply sucking at it.

[Nezia]

I think there's a slight difference in choice of play style and just simply sucking at it.

Why do people keep talking like fel rush usage is/should be an optional playstyle? Fel rush usage is what defines havoc, it's not an option, it's havoc itself. It's been there ever since DHs were announced, and it was our only fury generator at the time.

fel rush is to be used on cooldown just like chaos strike. get with it bro. not changing.

I would like to be sure of that but... Blizzard has a history of listenning to QQ and destroying things. So pray that this "me wanna be illidan but me don't like the gameplay" does not become so big, or you can be sure as hell that we are becoming a brainless version of rogues with demon form.

[Bullettime]

Why do people keep talking like fel rush usage is/should be an optional playstyle? Fel rush usage is what defines havoc, it's not an option, it's havoc itself. It's been there ever since DHs were announced, and it was our only fury generator at the time.



I would like to be sure of that but... Blizzard has a history of listenning to QQ and destroying things. So pray that this "me wanna be illidan but me don't like the gameplay" does not become so big, or you can be sure as hell that we are becoming a brainless version of rogues with demon form.

To be fair, again, I doubt there would be as much clamor over it should other build options not be that far behind. It's not a case of the talent synergy being too good, but more that other options are arguably languishing and some talents are borderline dead and outright traps.

If Blizzard would actually bother to do a tuning pass on talents, since this problem isn't just with Havoc, I doubt there would be as much concern. You SHOULD be able to take say an Eye Beam focused build and not feel like a shitter for doing it since the options are present. Optimal damage? No. But you shouldn't feel bad for taking it. Things like Demonic Appetite and Demonic are straight up traps and should be looked at, as is Blind Fury to a slightly lesser degree.

Even talents like Felblade and First Blood are crap and should be much better than they currently are to go full bore into a fast paced dash and slash Metal Gear Rising style build to go with Fel Mastery, Prepared, and Momentum instead Bloodlet being a ranged AoE/cleave talent that's godtier strong in comparison and doesn't fit with the hardcore class fantasy build being pushed and defended so much.

[Schizoide]

All we can do is offer our feedback; we want the option to opt-out of rotational repositioning. Obviously some people disagree with that, and that's their opinion, just as valid as ours.

Long story short-- if you don't want to reposition rotationally, don't main a Havoc DH.

[Stormwolf64]

This forum is cancer. What a bunch of egotistical morons that swarm these threads. SO YOU LIKE FEL RUSH, WE GET IT! Doesn't mean the other talents should suck in comparison. Blizzard themselves stated that talents were supposed to be "fun" and entirely optional which one you chose, so please use that pile of fat you call a brain before you utter your useless opinions as facts about what is and what isn't.

Infracted: Flaming