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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    Helya is a raving raid boss type character from what Ive seen in the 7.1 preview

    Sylvanas has adjusted (more or less) and has been a stable faction leader for many years now (and now - Leader of the Horde)


    I would not call that similar
    Helya has had a few more tens of thousands of years as mistress of the damned than Sylvanas has, and was largely trapped in her one realm, where Sylvanas has been free most of the time.

    Besides which, I'm not saying they are similar now, I'm saying they had a similar shift in morals.

  2. #342
    Deleted
    In my opinion Greymane seemed like a moron this whole time. We have the legion attacking us and we even had Slyvanas getting ready to attack with her ships. But Greymane instead focuses all his stupid efforts on revenge on the worst possible time. He is finally in a position to lead the Alliance and he waste it on revenge.

    Sucks to be Alliance, at least the horde leaders have their priorities in check.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by KronosIII View Post
    Sucks to be Alliance, at least the horde leaders have their priorities in check.
    Such as leaving everything to us (the players) and going off to chase after her own goal? :P Let's be fair - both Sylvanas and Genn weren't putting the war as their top priority here. Sylvanas went to find a way to get Valkyr for her & the Forsaken's virtual immortality, and Genn went to mess her plans up. They could've put more efforts in trying to take the Aegis of Aggramar - alas, both of them didn't.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2016-09-05 at 01:12 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  4. #344
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Such as leaving everything to us (the players) and going off to chase after her own goal? :P Let's be fair - both Sylvanas and Genn weren't putting the war as their top priority here. Sylvanas went to find a way to get Valkyr for her & the Forsaken's virtual immortality, and Genn went to mess her plans up. They could've put more efforts in trying to take the Aegis of Aggramar - alas, both of them didn't.
    all Stormhim Quest are about ( Legion !?, what Legion I have other things to worry about )
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    the only "positive" in your case is that, unlike Blizzard's writers, you aren't paid for that.

  5. #345
    That Skyfire could have saved Alliance lives in some battle...

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    Helya has had a few more tens of thousands of years as mistress of the damned than Sylvanas has, and was largely trapped in her one realm, where Sylvanas has been free most of the time.

    Besides which, I'm not saying they are similar now, I'm saying they had a similar shift in morals.
    Helya is not trapped, she can leave whenever she wants.

  7. #347
    The Patient Kitanii's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that besides trying to get herself some sweet immortality she was also trying to figure out a way for her Undead to "reproduce", or better said to "recruit" new undeads. Am I wrong? Was Stormheim a 100% selfish thing?

    If I were an Undead, I'd hate for my race to be extinguished. So I'm not sure if one could call it evil per se ..
    Last edited by Kitanii; 2016-09-05 at 01:37 PM.
    "Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

    * * --(Terry Pratchett, Eric)

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitanii View Post
    she was also trying to figure out a way for her Undead to "reproduce", or better said to "recruit" new undeads. Am I wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    when you actually start Stormheim as Horde the first thing you see is PC with Nathanos and Sylvanas on the ship, she walks with you and talks about how she often has been thinking about the future of the Forsaken lately and how it must be secured since they cannot reproduce, otherwise they will wither out
    that was the only thing she said

    not anything about herself (although it certainly doesnt hurt to not go into WoW hell with kid Arthas)

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitanii View Post
    I was under the impression that besides trying to get herself some sweet immortality she was also trying to figure out a way for her Undead to "reproduce", or better said to "recruit" new undeads. Am I wrong? Was Stormheim a 100% selfish thing?
    I believe it's not 100% selfish - as in, if she gets a virtually unlimited amount of Val'kyr, she'd share it with the Forsaken as well. However, I can't see if that has much to do with the Forsaken's ability to "reproduce" either. That's why her speech to player was kinda weird to me (assuming she was speaking the truth).

    The Forsaken already have the ability to reproduce through necromancy by raising up corpses. This could be done by Sylvanas, her Val'kyr, or her necromancers, and has been done by them until now. Their bodies are also ageless so unless you kill them or they suicide, they can't die. There isn't a lack of corpses either, so how does reproducing suddenly become such a problem? It'd make more sense if she is trying to get herself & the Forsaken immortality - which would explain why she wanted the Val'kyr. However, the Val'kyr, as far as we know, doesn't help that much in reproducing other than giving her free extra necromancers to raise corpses with. Maybe she is intending to massively increase the scale of the raising process, but I can see that none of other races'd be happy when they know that.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2016-09-05 at 01:50 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I believe it's not 100% selfish - as in, if she gets a virtually unlimited amount of Val'kyr, she'd share it with the Forsaken as well. However, I can't see if that has much to do with the Forsaken's ability to "reproduce" either. That's why her speech to player was kinda weird to me (assuming she was speaking the truth).

    The Forsaken already have the ability to reproduce through necromancy by raising up corpses. This could be done by Sylvanas, her Val'kyr, or her necromancers, and has been done by them until now. Their bodies are also ageless so unless you kill them or they suicide, they can't die. There isn't a lack of corpses either, so how does reproducing suddenly become such a problem? It'd make more sense if she is trying to get herself & the Forsaken immortality - which would explain why she wanted the Val'kyr. However, the Val'kyr, as far as we know, doesn't help that much in reproducing other than giving her free extra necromancers to raise corpses with.
    Necromancers aren't as effective as Val'kyr though and seem to not be trusted in their society, which is why stillwater and his ilk were executed, they tried a different approach to create new forsaken.

  11. #351
    The Patient Kitanii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    The Forsaken already have the ability to reproduce through necromancy by raising up corpses. This could be done by Sylvanas, her Val'kyr, or her necromancers, and has been done by them until now. Their bodies are also ageless so unless you kill them or they suicide, they can't die. There isn't a lack of corpses either, so how does reproducing suddenly become such a problem? It'd make more sense if she is trying to get herself & the Forsaken immortality - which would explain why she wanted the Val'kyr. However, the Val'kyr, as far as we know, doesn't help that much in reproducing other than giving her free extra necromancers to raise corpses with.
    That's a very good point. Maybe with her dialog to the player she tried to justify what she was about to do or trying to get some sort of legitimization by it because she knew it was kind of a bad thing to do. In the end I do think she might have been struggling with what is right/wrong but found herself a way to be okay with it.
    "Multiple exclamation marks," he went on, shaking his head, "are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

    * * --(Terry Pratchett, Eric)

  12. #352
    pretty sure the only raising method of the Forsaken has been only Valkyr for a while now


    and the several Valkyr left with Sylvanas arent nearly enough for a whole faction ..

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitanii View Post
    In the end I do think she might have been struggling with what is right/wrong but found herself a way to be okay with it.
    Sylvanas stopped caring about that, ever since she came back from Icecrown and her afterlife experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post

    and the several Valkyr left with Sylvanas arent nearly enough for a whole faction ..
    They can spawn lesser Val'kyr so they should be enough if used wisely.

  14. #354
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayOfGames View Post
    That is exactly what the idea of evil is, a BELIEF. It is not a fact, but rather a concept derived from mankind's necessity to try and categorize everything when not everything can be defined in such a simplistic and easy way.
    Except you can, you just need to possess a basic moral compass, nothing more. It's quite ridiculous saying that the situation is not "simplistic" when the actual situations at hand are, indeed, simple. If you want to apply some high level of moral realitivism you have to find actual complex cases, something those of either Sylvanas and especially Sargeras are not.

    Moreover, "evil" is not always a belief, it can actually be the state of a person's mind. Psychopaths can definitely be considered "evil" persons because of their very genetics. There's no "evil is a point of view" that you can apply with them. In our specific cases, Sargeras and Sylvanas are not literal "psychopaths" but sort of touch that field, both got somewhat transformed into beings different from what they were, process that influenced their very essences and the emotional states moving their actions. Because of this they can be considered "evil" in multiple ways, they're just not utterly "evil" as they still possess a shred of humane sense (quite debatable in Sargeras' case anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by KronosIII View Post
    In my opinion Greymane seemed like a moron this whole time. We have the legion attacking us and we even had Slyvanas getting ready to attack with her ships. But Greymane instead focuses all his stupid efforts on revenge on the worst possible time. He is finally in a position to lead the Alliance and he waste it on revenge.

    Sucks to be Alliance, at least the horde leaders have their priorities in check.
    This is hardly fair, because both Sylvanas and Greymane give little to no shit about the important matters at hand. Minus some occasional support given by a couple of NPCs, is the Horde/Alliance player single-handely working his way to retrieve the Aegis of Aggramar. Meanwhile Sylvanas has a boner for Val'kyrs and Greymane one for vengeance, as when you have done with the God-King you find the two of them bickering before Eyir's vault.

    Anyway, seems Qualia quite beat me to it (I didn't turn the page yet).
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2016-09-05 at 02:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Except you can, you just need to possess a basic moral compass, nothing more.
    Which, again, is going to be a narrow and biased view of a subjective concept.

  16. #356
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconia View Post
    So when Sylvanas realized they had no choice but to retreat, you suggest it's better to go with
    1) /y "OI, Varian! VAAARIIIAAAN! Shitpickles, it's like we're too far away apart or something and this battle noise may be a problem too."
    rather than
    2) *blows the horn* "BLOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWE'RETOTALLYLEAVIIIIIIINGYOUSHOULDTOOOOOOOO"

    Mmhm.
    hands down the best reply in this thread !!

  17. #357
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitanii View Post
    I was under the impression that besides trying to get herself some sweet immortality she was also trying to figure out a way for her Undead to "reproduce", or better said to "recruit" new undeads. Am I wrong? Was Stormheim a 100% selfish thing?

    If I were an Undead, I'd hate for my race to be extinguished. So I'm not sure if one could call it evil per se ..
    Wasn't Undeath supposed to be a terrible curse? Didn't the Forsaken hated the Scourge for damning them to such an existence? Even the Members of the Scourge only joined in to become some higher and by far more powerful undead being, a Lich, not some random Undead like the Forsaken are.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    Wasn't Undeath supposed to be a terrible curse? Didn't the Forsaken hated the Scourge for damning them to such an existence? Even the Members of the Scourge only joined in to become some higher and by far more powerful undead being, a Lich, not some random Undead like the Forsaken are.
    They mostly hated the scourge for enslaving them, forcing them to slaughter their way through everything and they missed their old lives for a time, but after a few years undeath does not bother them much.

  19. #359
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Such as leaving everything to us (the players) and going off to chase after her own goal? :P Let's be fair - both Sylvanas and Genn weren't putting the war as their top priority here. Sylvanas went to find a way to get Valkyr for her & the Forsaken's virtual immortality, and Genn went to mess her plans up. They could've put more efforts in trying to take the Aegis of Aggramar - alas, both of them didn't.

    You just said the difference she is making sure the survival of her people which is part of the horde. Her goals still have the interest of the horde. Greymane's actions had no support at all for the Alliance. If he even had a human brain left he would take this time to get his home city back while Slyvanas is out. Instead he stupidly uses the Alliance resources on nothing more than revenge, captured no land, and doing nothing to benefit his people.

    Sorry the elf is still quite a few steps higher than Greymane here.

  20. #360
    at least she made sure to put the PC right on the track towards getting the Pillar

    did Greymane do that on the Alliance side ?


    its not like its the warchiefs job to personally get each pillar

    theres troops for that

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