I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Bullettime]

All we can do is offer our feedback; we want the option to opt-out of rotational repositioning. Obviously some people disagree with that, and that's their opinion, just as valid as ours.

Long story short-- if you don't want to reposition rotationally, don't main a Havoc DH.

The concern with that is just that people are arguing it as a black and white scenario. Like there's no middleground between Momentum or bust or the alternatives.

There's room for the mobility build and other builds to exist, and the mobility being the best isn't a bad thing either. But being the best doesn't mean it has to dominate other options handily. It's more a case though of other talents being too weak than those talents being too strong, so any cries for nerfs should just be disregarded. Havoc is doing well but isn't setting the world on fire to justify nerfs. Other talents just need to be brought up to where they should be or actually allowed to fill their intended niche.

The full Momentum build being on top is fine given it's harder to play overall and better fills the class fantasy, but that doesn't excuse the plethora of outright trap talents or lack of payoff for certain other combinations, including ones that also fit that class fantasy but are too weak themselves.

[Taygai]

I understand people are afraid of their fantasy of mobility being ruined, but the simple fact is, if the class is built around mobility, every ability should have some repositional effect if that's the case, but it's not. Eye beam is a stationary channeled ability. I don't think I've ever seen a notable demon hunter throwing a glaive at an enemy. I think the only time I've ever seen any demon hunter throw a glaive was illidan, and that was to spawn fel fire elementals. So that's certainly not a part of class fantasy.

Say what you want, but Fel Rush baseline damage isn't going to last, it's going to get dropped. So will bloodlet (and/or momentum) and we should see buffs to felblade and fel eruption and nemesis soon.

You would be naive to think this won't happen. I'm sure blizzard goes through, looks at a chart showing how often a talent is chosen for what type of content. If not just a census on the talents via armory. As such they will probably look at other talents, find out why they're not making the cut, and either nerf the talents being used or buff the ones not being used. The only talent they have commented on they want to be the weakest in it's tier is demon blades, and that's 100% fine, it's a passive play style. I don't mind a passive play style where it does not add extra functionality to your build to be the best, but I do remember them saying that they want talent choices to determine your play style. Mobility may be a demon hunters key play style, but so is demons bite, and suddenly you can choose a talent to turn it into a passive.

It's not far fetched to say that mobility will become optional with this class. I don't care if non-mobility is behind fel rush in damage, but 20% is unacceptable when they said that they want to give us a choice of play style with each class.

As an example, outlaw has roll the bones, I'm sure someone complained "Why should I play this class when it's such RNG focused." I'm sure there was someone who defended it saying, "Don't like RNG, don't play outlaw."

And thus, slice and dice was brought back. Those who wanted a guranteed middle line buff, received it, and those who prefer that high risk high reward play style, got to keep it. The difference between the two is minimal, not 20%.

[Schizoide]

It's more a case though of other talents being too weak than those talents being too strong, so any cries for nerfs should just be disregarded. Havoc is doing well but isn't setting the world on fire to justify nerfs. Other talents just need to be brought up to where they should be or actually allowed to fill their intended niche.

Lots of Havoc talents are obvious "gimme" choices because they outdamage the alternatives by a significant amount, but Momentum is not really one of those talents-- not for single targets, anyway. Fel Mastery and particularly Bloodlet are substantially overpowered when compared to the two alternatives in their respective tiers.

Moving on, Havoc must use Fel Rush twice every 20s even without Fel Mastery, Prepared, and Momentum. The problem is that Fel Rush is a very high damage ability that is completely free to use. It isn't even on the GCD, it has its own special 0.25s GCD. The only real solution is to substantially nerf Fel Rush damage baseline, then buff it back up through Fel Mastery-- and then tune Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury competitive with, but ~5% weaker than, that version of Fel Mastery in both single target and AE.

Repositioning rotationally while still executing raid mechanics properly and not dying is hard. Doing it properly should be rewarded with phat deeps! But right now, skipping repositioning is a 20% DPS loss. You absolutely must do it-- completely mandatory.

@Taygai: Assuming Blizzard will look at the metrics and buff/nerf is, itself, naive. It is very common for them to leave multiple talents completely worthless for entire expansions. If you don't want to reposition rotationally, don't main Havoc. Don't assume they're going to make the changes you want. If it happens, great. But don't bet on it.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

This forum is cancer. What a bunch of egotistical morons that swarm these threads. SO YOU LIKE FEL RUSH, WE GET IT! Doesn't mean the other talents should suck in comparison. Blizzard themselves stated that talents were supposed to be "fun" and entirely optional which one you chose, so please use that pile of fat you call a brain before you utter your useless opinions as facts about what is and what isn't.

If you don't raid Mythic, stop whining like a baby and use whatever you want, you aren't good at the game anyway so no one cares. If you are, stop whining like a baby and use what is best, that has been the creed for hardcore player since the dawn of the game.

INFRACTION

[Flame6]

I almost always just choose the passive option. I don't like having more buttons. Sure, it's a small loss, but it lets me focus on the other buttons that much more/

[Not Againnn]

Lots of Havoc talents are obvious "gimme" choices because they outdamage the alternatives by a significant amount, but Momentum is not really one of those talents-- not for single targets, anyway. Fel Mastery and particularly Bloodlet are substantially overpowered when compared to the two alternatives in their respective tiers.

first blood is the best talent for pvp, and its one of our strongest abilities when speced into it just because of the burst in pvp.

[Xzan]

So i'm a little sad right now, i played an assassination rogue previously but with the changes it's kind of dead to me, no other class catches my interest except DH, but i just can't get behind fel rushing rotationally, i use vengeance over momentum so it's not a timing issue, i just can't get used to it, it feels so wrong to be using it offensively when you don't pick momentum, my problem is, it's not optional, the first tier talent fel mastery pretty much forces you into it, not using it is a HUGE loss.

I know it doesn't make sense to roll a DH when their use of fel rush was known before, but since i've tried all classes DH was all that was left, and honestly, outside fel rush momentum playstyle, i really enjoy everything else about it, it's just a shame that with 3 talents per tier, they couldn't make a spec that doesn't make use of fel rush rotationally, sure, make it do a bit less damage (Not too much)


Currently, prepared, fel mastery and momentum are all the best in their tier, pretty much forcing that playstyle, even if you don't pick momentum, you're still stuck with it.


I very much doubt this will change, i'm just a little sad that i'm not out of options and wanted to rant a bit.

Are you sure they are 'that' good? Fel Mastery increases damage on your mobility ability, which already hits just a little more than Demon Bite. and generates the same amount of Fury as Demon Bite. Without a doubt it is a DPS increase, but you'll be possibly positioning yourself away from the boss for this small increase (I dare say this could nullify the DPS gain in a single target scenario) and the main problem I see with this is that you may screw yourself over if you need to get out and Fel Rush is on cooldown from previous use.

Also, Momentum looks terribly subpar to Nemesis. I want to stack as many buffs on top of one another during BL/Hero. And 4sec damage increase from Momentum does not do that for me.

However I could see myself using Fel Mastery + Momentum on fights where I need to pingpong between boss and pack of adds regularly. Maybe if there are two bosses that can both be damaged freely, Fel Rushing between them could be viable. On the other hand if they both could be positioned next to each other, I would probably go for Chaos Cleave + Bloodlet + Nemesis + Master of the Glaive.

[mitre27]

I think it's funny how on one hand people say: "if you don't like it play without it, dps doen't matter, it's not so big of a loss" and on the other hand players get kicked from groups for smaller mistakes than 20!!% less dps than intended, because as it was said, fel rushing often is an intended mechanic for Havoc.

It's like: "I don't like Poison and bleed effect, but love assa rogue"



so either get used to rushing or be prepared (pun intended) to be judged for doing bad dps in dungeons and raids

Your comparison sucks, since you're only forced to fel rush actively for dps because of weak first tier options.


I have gotten used to fel rushing though.

[Schizoide]

first blood is the best talent for pvp, and its one of our strongest abilities when speced into it just because of the burst in pvp.

Yes, you're right, and we covered that earlier. I'm only talking PvE.

Your comparison sucks, since you're only forced to fel rush actively for dps because of weak first tier options

Wrong. You need to Fel Rush rotationally even if you don't take Fel Mastery. Fel Mastery is indeed an overpowered talent compared to the alternatives in the same tier, but that isn't why you Fel Rush-- you Fel Rush because it's high damage baseline, absolutely free, and on a very short 0.25s GCD.

[mitre27]

Yes, you're right, and we covered that earlier. I'm only talking PvE.


Wrong. You need to Fel Rush rotationally even if you don't take Fel Mastery. Fel Mastery is indeed an overpowered talent compared to the alternatives in the same tier, but that isn't why you Fel Rush-- you Fel Rush because it's high damage baseline, absolutely free, and on a very short 0.25s GCD.

But it's not a stupid increase without the talent.

[Kithelle]

Putting damage into a movement ability isn't necessarily poor design. It fits the DH class fantasy and who knows, it could actually work in challenging content.

Making rotational repositioning mandatory, and not allowing players to spec out of it, on a class that the devs loudly trumpeted was easy to play, that is poor design.

I'm really enjoying Legion, but when it comes to class design I think the devs don't have a fucking clue what they're doing or even talking about anymore.

They say they want one thing and go a completely different direction, they say they want talents to be a choice and don't want certain talents to be obviously superior to others in the row yet that is the case with many of them.

They design abilities that are supposed to be a core piece of a spec then make them so damn weak that they're useless and or a rotation is stronger without them.

They say a spec is supposed to be a easier spec to play then design the spec with high skillcap abilities.

I really think they just don't know what the hell they're doing...

[Schizoide]

But it's not a stupid increase without the talent.

When I simmed it last week it came out as a 12% total performance loss to skip Fel Rush without any of the supporting talents. If you can deal with that, great.

[mitre27]

When I simmed it last week it came out as a 12% total performance loss to skip Fel Rush without any of the supporting talents. If you can deal with that, great.

Shit that's stupid.

Demon hunter is not easy to play, just the fel rushing to keep up momentum is harder than what other classes deal with.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

I almost always just choose the passive option. I don't like having more buttons. Sure, it's a small loss, but it lets me focus on the other buttons that much more/

This is generally my feeling too. I'm not saying every class should turn in to BM where you push four or five buttons but I've always been turned off by specs which require an arsenal of abilities which you have to juggle.

Respect to those who have three or more bars and can use them though. I've never been one who got the hang of binding shift and ctrl to keys but I've also never really given it a chance. I still bind extra keys but I would say my comfort zone is 12 keys in total.

[Halyon]

I absolutely adore the Fel Rushing playstyle. Completely unique and so much more exciting than the usual turret 1-2-3-2-3 repeat.

What I DON'T like about Fel Rush is being DCd about 3 times every 30 mins whenever the game doesn't like the pathing. It's getting reallllly old, especially as I'm almost always dead when I relog.

Or being in cramped space in a HC dungeon were you don't wanna ninjapull. There's that. I mean, unless you have a nearby wall/other solid object you can violently molest with your face...

[Taygai]

Or being in cramped space in a HC dungeon were you don't wanna ninjapull. There's that. I mean, unless you have a nearby wall/other solid object you can violently molest with your face...

I hope that terminology isn't patented, I plan on using it if it's not.

[Shiino]

#youarenotprepared

[Schizoide]

Demon hunter is not easy to play, just the fel rushing to keep up momentum is harder than what other classes deal with.

Momentum is optional, it sims ~4% over Nemesis but that assumes perfect execution. My suggestion is still to take Momentum, because it's great on AE and trash, and then not worry about anything other than never Fel Rushing twice in a row, or Vengeful Retreating then immediately Fel Rushing back in.

Fel Rush twice every 20s is not optional.

[mitre27]

Momentum is optional, it sims ~4% over Nemesis but that assumes perfect execution. My suggestion is still to take Momentum, because it's great on AE and trash, and then not worry about anything other than never Fel Rushing twice in a row, or Vengeful Retreating then immediately Fel Rushing back in.

Fel Rush twice every 20s is not optional.

Yeah i play with demon blades and nemesis and do better than any demon hunter i've come across, i know it's not optimal but i do more personally than when i play the optimal spec.

[Deix-EU]

Momentum is fine, it's ahead but not too far.

Prepared is fine, it's ahead but not too far.

Fel mastery is broken, it's way ahead, even if you pick the alternative talents instead of prepared and momentum, you will have to rotationally use fel rush because of this skill (Demon blades also doesn't help).

This isn't a complaint about momentum talent, it's about the rotational use of fel rush being rammed down demon hunters throats, or you do 30% less damage making you a dud when it comes to raids.





I agree with you partly, momentum and prepared are fine, they're ahead but not too far, but fel mastery isn't optional if you want to raid, demon hunters are middle of the back, we can't afford to lose 30% damage by picking a build that doesn't force rotational fel rush.

We're top chart if played correctly for the same ilvl. I litteraly wreck recount and ahead of all classes. Rogue is sometimes on par. The last thing we need is a buff. Nemesis + Demon Blade could make you equal to other.