Player's DK following going the path of Arthas?

[Aquamonkey]

Having the voices of every soul in the Scourge swimming in your head probly isn't that great for sanity.

[My User Name]

The problem is that Darion willingly accepts going to Light's Hope Chapel, even though he saw Tirion wrecking the shit out of Arthas there. It IS holy ground and even Lich King has no power there. Bolvar should know of this because he was a former paladin. Yes, he knew about it and sent Darion to test him. Testing his loyalty, and capability of leading, by killing their allies! Why tf would you do that? And why would Darion be OK with it?

Then look at Sally Whitemane, she fought all her life to fight undead loyal to the light. Because of her zealotry she ranked among the Scarlet Crusade. And now she is OK with being an undead herself?

Seeing their actions it is highly possible that Darion, Sally, rest of the Four Horsemen and even Deathlord him/herself may be controlled by the Lich King.

[Onvious]

last quest for Horseman, Darion simply didnt want to attack Light's Chapel, but he just obeyed/listened us/lich king.

[Aurabolt]

The problem is that Darion willingly accepts going to Light's Hope Chapel, even though he saw Tirion wrecking the shit out of Arthas there. It IS holy ground and even Lich King has no power there. Bolvar should know of this because he was a former paladin. Yes, he knew about it and sent Darion to test him. Testing his loyalty, and capability of leading, by killing their allies! Why tf would you do that? And why would Darion be OK with it?

Then look at Sally Whitemane, she fought all her life to fight undead loyal to the light. Because of her zealotry she ranked among the Scarlet Crusade. And now she is OK with being an undead herself?

Seeing their actions it is highly possible that Darion, Sally, rest of the Four Horsemen and even Deathlord him/herself may be controlled by the Lich King.

Nope, as the previous poster said Morgaine was vehemently against it and says as much up until the attack begins.

Even then he's just following the Deathlord's lead.

I think that it is Bolvar who is actually following Arthas' steps. He seems that he is losing his "human" self and is getting deeper on the LK role. In the frost DK artifact senario he is constantly saying "you will be the weapon that will kill MY enemies", not just the enemies of azeroth.

A proof that Bolvar is powerfull, is that he is able to talk to us and persuade us to go after the weapon, raise Naz'grim from the dead etc.

ICC vol 2 will happen for sure, after Legion!

I think you're reading too much into that. The Ebon Blade has Bolvar on a tight leash BECAUSE he's not at least as powerful as they are. Not yet anyway and the last thing they want is the Legion overriding Bolvar's control of the Scourge he does control. Remember, he can't even MOVE freely like Arthas could.

Bolvar's comments are clearly in referral to the Legion during the Frost DK Artifact. He doesn't mean anything other than that. He considers the Legion a threat to his interests though if the Legion is aware the LK is still around, it IS curious they haven't yet made a move to take him out. They either don't know the LK's still around or they don't deem him a serious threat to their interests.

..Bolvar following in Arthas' footsteps? Hardly. You clearly DON'T know Arthas' rise to power as a DK and as Lich King to even suggest that. Things were initially set in motion by the Nathrezim from the moment Ner'zul was cast into Azeroth for Arthas to gain LK. Mal'Ganis planted Frostmourne for Arthas to find and that was when Ner'zul double-crossed the Legion and turned on them.

Arthas had the benefit absorbing all of Ner'zul's knowledge of necromancy. Bolvar has no connections to the previous LKs. The Helm of Domination allows him to control Scourge and raise new Scourge but nowhere near the same level of mastery as his predecessors.

[Magnagarde]

They did. A lot of the Scourge aren't under control anymore, and acting independent now (i.e: "The Scourge and Cult of the Damned operating in the Plaguelands are quite likely... autonomous" - Blizzcon 2011). By Cataclysm, it took Bolvar most of his power to take over and rein in just the Scourge in Northrend, he didn't have control over others.

In theory yes, but practically there have not been any major signs of any of this(Scholomance perhaps, but they've been taken care of). I've refered to the ingame implementation of this.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, as the previous poster said Morgaine was vehemently against it and says as much up until the attack begins.

Even then he's just following the Deathlord's lead.






I think you're reading too much into that. The Ebon Blade has Bolvar on a tight leash BECAUSE he's not at least as powerful as they are. Not yet anyway and the last thing they want is the Legion overriding Bolvar's control of the Scourge he does control. Remember, he can't even MOVE freely like Arthas could.

Bolvar's comments are clearly in referral to the Legion during the Frost DK Artifact. He doesn't mean anything other than that. He considers the Legion a threat to his interests though if the Legion is aware the LK is still around, it IS curious they haven't yet made a move to take him out. They either don't know the LK's still around or they don't deem him a serious threat to their interests.

..Bolvar following in Arthas' footsteps? Hardly. You clearly DON'T know Arthas' rise to power as a DK and as Lich King to even suggest that. Things were initially set in motion by the Nathrezim from the moment Ner'zul was cast into Azeroth for Arthas to gain LK. Mal'Ganis planted Frostmourne for Arthas to find and that was when Ner'zul double-crossed the Legion and turned on them.

Arthas had the benefit absorbing all of Ner'zul's knowledge of necromancy. Bolvar has no connections to the previous LKs. The Helm of Domination allows him to control Scourge and raise new Scourge but nowhere near the same level of mastery as his predecessors.

Yeah, Bolvar might be taking the path Arthas took, but the IC leader of the order hall is to some extent.

We can easily draw a parallel between the IC leader of the Knights of the Ebon Blade and Arthas when it comes to hearing the voice of the Lich King. Just as Arthas once did, so does the current IC leader of the order hear the voice of Bolvar. It is followed out of convenience for now, but who knows what can come out of it.

[Deleted]

I don't get where @Aurabolt is taking all his headcanons from.
We don't know how powerful Bolvar really is, and he obviously gained a lot of knowledge from the Helm of Domination, since he sends us around the world doing things he clearly couldn't know before becoming the LK. He may have very well gained all the knowledge of the previous LKs, since you don't become so efficient in the dark arts by sitting on a throne for a couple of years. For all we know, Bolvar may have already reached Arthas "power level" but is pretending othewise to manupulate the Ebon Blade. Or he may really be still to weak and busy rallying the scrouge in Northrend. We don't know nothing for certain yet.

What bug me is the mark he places on the deathlord after he gets his first artifact. Smells a lot like something that could lead to mind control, if the player is not already controlled by him. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing as long as Bolvar doesn't go full villain mode, since Blizz is trying to appease the dk community by returning them to their roots.

[delus]

Just finished DK's campaign and wondered a lot about implications of campaign's finish. On the forums, many question the logics behind attack on Light's Hope. Even more question motivations behind it, as the act itself is simply evil, many paladins died, and Ebon Blade basically lost any credibility in eyes of others, especially paladins.

"Is Lich King stupid?" - somebody asked. "Much bigger army couldn't defeat much smaller Light's Hope years earlier, how could he expect to succeed?".

Maybe he didn't?

Look at the quests of DK order hall campaign in this way (remember that every action is inspired by direct suggestions/guidelines from the Lich King):

1) Player raises Nazgrim, who is willing to join the cause, who feels the need to pay for the atrocities he did under Garrosh's command. Nobody gets hurt. A noble cause begins.

2) Players raises Trollbane, who is also willing to join the cause. This time however, player needs to kill to accomplish his goals. Not only Trollbane's son, but also many trolls who are at war with Stromgarde. The grounds goes red with blood, and at the end player leaves with Trollbane, but leaving destruction behind him.

3) Player raises Whitemane, who is "not neccessarily" willing to join the cause. She fought against undead all her life. Ressurection is based on simple statement, that Whitemane would be strong addition to the Horsemen. Meanwhile, entire Scarlet Crusade gets annihilated. If I remember correctly, annihilating Scarlet Crusade was the part of original Death Knight intro quests, and it was supposed to make player a bad guy. Same like back then, DKs just storm into Scarlet Crusade's base and kill everybody they see. Everybody. Why? "For the atrocities they commited in the past". Ebon Blade - the ultimate hand of justice. More likely though, DKs kill them because theu just stand in the way, because:

4) Player tries to raise Tirion Fordring. For that, DKs raid Light's Hope, they kill a lot of paladins, their allies, people who trusted them , people who represent the only class that can be called "good" (even priests have shadow spec...), all because of the ultimate goal! But this goal... will not be accomplished. And that it wouldn't be accomplished, a fool could predict. Lich King "somehow" didn't. DKs murdered paladins, and they murdered them for nothing.

Bad writing?

Look at this then:

1) Arthas kills Kel'thuzad. This seems to be a good thing, but paladins don't kill due to hatred. Kel'thuzad wasn't dangerous when Arthas captured him, Arthas kills him because of "vengeance". Not paladin way, but k.

2) Arthas cleanses Stratholme. There seemed to be no other way of removing the plague, but the way he did it was simply evil. He still acted with sense of justice though.

3) Arthas says he will sacrifice everything to get his vengeance. These words get him the frostmourne. Muradin "dies", but Arthas doesn't care. A necessary death towards ultimate goal (sounds similar?).

4) Arthas burns down the ships, then orders to kill his own mercenaries. He is evil already. But that doesn't matter. The goal is ultimate and no cost is too great.

5) Arthas kills Mal'ganis, fullfiling his goal. He lost everything on his way there. He disappeares in wastes of Northrend, and when he comes back... we know what happens. He belongs to the Lich King.

A genius writing? Path of player DK character in Legion mirrors the path of Arthas. Both transfer from "semi-good" acts through "questionable acts" to "evil acts". Both do that because of orders from the Lich King! Both show no remorse. Both are 100% convinced they are doing what's necessary. Both never question their own acts (player has no option of questioning! others question, Darion is full of doubts, player is embodiment of confidence!).

How will the story of Ebon Blade and Four Horsemen develop in future patches?

What if the Lich King turned evil? What if he leads the Death Knights back into slavery, and the world into damnation?

Killing Galen was a good thing as he is a threat to the world and a murderer.

[Deleted]

WoG said that Ner'zhul (not Nur'Zhul) is done, he is not around. The one inside Frostmourne weren't Ner'zhul / Arthas' spirits. Those were just echoes (they were even renamed into Echoes when people started speculating during alpha) - kind of magical after-images, but not something that is "alive" in both physical and spiritual sense ("When a spirit is consumed by the void, an echo of the soul is all that is left behind. Neither in the physical or spiritual sense of the word would these echoes be considered 'alive.' The echo is merely a twisted reverberation of the anguish left behind by the soul as it is consumed.")

Wasn't this already the case in WC3? Ner'zhul is no more since Kil'jaeden shattered his soul, there is only the Lichking

We can be pretty sure that Bolvar is already corrupted by something. He acts in a way the real Bolvar would never have. Letting his Champion crush and enslave the Souls of his former Silver Hand brethren, one of them one of the first, declaring that he doesn't care if the Mage on his Mission to retrieve a Artifact to save Azeroth becomes one of the Undead...

[MikeBogina]

Amazing how willing everyone is, after being killed and resurrected. Did any of them really want their fate?


That's the thing about Decay magic. Those afflicted by it, or empowered, become... eviler. Arthas was good, Arthas did what was right. And Arthas became the Lich King. Bolvar was good, bolvar is doing what Bolvar thinks is right... Bolvar is the Lich King.

Maybe now, because the players get a point of view of the scourge, that we dont think much of it. But from the lore point of view of the paladins, or anyone else that sees this, they probably see no difference between the Arthas and Bolvar's Scourge.

[Deleted]

Amazing how willing everyone is, after being killed and resurrected. Did any of them really want their fate?


That's the thing about Decay magic. Those afflicted by it, or empowered, become... eviler. Arthas was good, Arthas did what was right. And Arthas became the Lich King. Bolvar was good, bolvar is doing what Bolvar thinks is right... Bolvar is the Lich King.

Maybe now, because the players get a point of view of the scourge, that we dont think much of it. But from the lore point of view of the paladins, or anyone else that sees this, they probably see no difference between the Arthas and Bolvar's Scourge.

Maybe Blizz simply doesn't care. The fanbase already gives a shit that the curse of Undead was supposed to be a horrible curse, a fate worse than death, to tell themselves that the forsaken are still a good Faction and Sylvanas is a nice and lawful good hero.

[MikeBogina]

Wasn't this already the case in WC3? Ner'zhul is no more since Kil'jaeden shattered his soul, there is only the Lichking

We can be pretty sure that Bolvar is already corrupted by something. He acts in a way the real Bolvar would never have. Letting his Champion crush and enslave the Souls of his former Silver Hand brethren, one of them one of the first, declaring that he doesn't care if the Mage on his Mission to retrieve a Artifact to save Azeroth becomes one of the Undead...

It was still Ner'zhul, but he was turned into basically an artifact of pure decay magic. That Decay magic, is basically the Darkside 2.0. Everyone who is effected by it, becomes their evil twin. All those DK's who we play as, they weren't freed from some mind control, they are the same as they were under the Scourge, they just are pissed off that they were sent to die.

The Forsaken, they all seem to be dicks. But they are all normal people who were turned into undead and now that they do have their minds back, most are now evilish.

[Durrrtah]

I think its more likely that the paladin order had been infiltrated, and that bolvar chose that moment to strike, not because security was lax, but because all those out with the Highlord were loyal, and those left behind were demons, or members of the Cult of the Damned / Shadow Council / ETC

It has been shown time and time again that holy ground does not stop Demons/Cultists, but does stop the undead.

Why else would Bolvar send his Death Knights on a suicide mission like that.

[Deleted]

Honestly that seemed like the reason even during WOTLK DK's do pretty messed up things to those they face and they are still doing it. We are the grey/evil foil to the paladins. That's what we are meant to be.

Also do remember the reason why Bolvar picked the PC is because they are not a wuss at getting things done. As he says in ICC "When the weak show mercy, you did not hesitate to strike. Where the unworthy were vanquished you conquered". DK's are not nice people hell they are looking among the Horde and Alliance causalities to recruit new Death knights.

As a DK player I am okay with it "We do what the living cannot". As a forsaken DK player I like sylvanas because she is a grey character and get's things done hence why I also like DK's.

[MikeBogina]

Maybe Blizz simply doesn't care. The fanbase already gives a shit that the curse of Undead was supposed to be a horrible curse, a fate worse than death, to tell themselves that the forsaken are still a good Faction and Sylvanas is a nice and lawful good hero.

I totally agree, they're not good. They're morality is in the shitter and if they weren't a playable faction, they'd be taken care of in Vanilla wow. But I do love their story and theme. I love a good bad character who gets to just be and not suffer the childish morality that Blizzard is so used to doing(Basically everyone bad loses)

[Bumbac]

4) Player tries to raise Tirion Fordring. For that, DKs raid Light's Hope, they kill a lot of paladins, their allies, people who trusted them , people who represent the only class that can be called "good" (even priests have shadow spec...)

What is wrong with druids and monks?

[Deleted]

What is wrong with druids and monks?

Malfurion acted like a dick towards Illidan because of his decision to be gay and monks are useless.

Infracted.

[Casterbridge]

I wonder if we don't really understand just how powerful the helm is.

We know it was meant to control the undead, and it was part of the power of the Lich King in combination with the Frostmourne, is it possible that the helm itself is stronger with Frostmourne's destruction?

The way the campaign goes it really feels like the new Lich King is messing mentally with the Ebon Blade, which shouldn't be entirely possible, unless in some ways he's stronger than the previous one, I know the Legion is a massive threat, but the assault on the Chapel, raising new DK recruits, just seems very odd.

[Deleted]

I wonder if we don't really understand just how powerful the helm is.

We know it was meant to control the undead, and it was part of the power of the Lich King in combination with the Frostmourne, is it possible that the helm itself is stronger with Frostmourne's destruction?

The way the campaign goes it really feels like the new Lich King is messing mentally with the Ebon Blade, which shouldn't be entirely possible, unless in some ways he's stronger than the previous one, I know the Legion is a massive threat, but the assault on the Chapel, raising new DK recruits, just seems very odd.

Well, it's more of the fact no matter what we are doing the will of the lich king. If you are a frost DK as has already been said in this topic the "memory" of Arthas says this.

Memory of Arthas says: You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own...
Memory of Arthas says: Yet you do as He commands.
Memory of Arthas says: You exist by His whim alone.
Memory of Arthas says: You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument...

It's also note that during the fire mage quest what's her name who has felo'melorn says that Bolvar has some "glorious plan" or some such. After being turned to undeath by him. He notes that if the fire mage PC fails they will be joining the scourge.

[Sperrow]

I felt that the setup was like this, with changed roles:
Ner'zhul == Bolvar
We, player == Arthas

If we take a look what Bolvar said:

The Lich King: Where the weak showed mercy, you did not hesitate to strike. Where the unworthy were vanquished, you have conquered. I now mark you with my sigil, let all recognize you as the enforcer of my will. As we speak the Ebon Blade is en route to the Broken Isles to hunt for the Dreadlords.

Doesn't it remind you of Arthas struggles until he got to Icecrown to ascend the throne? (This scene reminded me of the cinematic of Arthas ascending the throne at end of W3 and it matches what other peeps in this thread said about Stratholme and Kel'Thuzad, which matches our order hall quests +-)

Only one thing that was missing really - when Bolvar calls the player up to him and tells him about strugles, mercy, blablabla, the only thing that should have happened - Player should have killed Bolvar and should have taken the helm of dominion, much like Arthas did to Ner'zhul (after merging and "kicking" him out", then we _could_ become the Lich King much like Arthas became.

I expect, we just resumed the storyline where Arthas would not "absorb" Ner'zhul, except this time in place of Arthas are we - the weak willed players. We still battle the legion, lich king is still there + who knows what Bolvar will do after legion is defeated (throwing in theory about Kel'Thuzads return or Bolvar going mad and summoning Arthas back from the dead, as the body is missing(is it? dunno)).

This could be Blizzards way of letting DK players feel that they are in boots of Arthas, without becoming the Lich King. Who knows what next expansion will bring, I mean - not a lot of people believed you would be able to wield Ashbringer or Frostmourne Reborn, among other artifact weapons.

[Rafoel]

I expect, we just resumed the storyline where Arthas would not "absorb" Ner'zhul, except this time in place of Arthas are we - the weak willed players. We still battle the legion, lich king is still there + who knows what Bolvar will do after legion is defeated (throwing in theory about Kel'Thuzads return or Bolvar going mad and summoning Arthas back from the dead, as the body is missing(is it? dunno)).

My. God.


It is possible? Theoretically? Lorewise? Can the Lich King ressurect the previous Lich King?