Can a good Lock with past Heroic (PreWoD)+ Mythic experience comment on DPS sitch-PVE

[blackops2008]

No. Just no.

with the shadowburn build yes. Shadowburn actually does more dps in cleave than chaos bolt if you can spam it non-stop because shard regeneration , and for aoe incinerate + cataclysm is better.

[Soulsworn]

The amount of blatant misinformation being spread in this forum by people with a complete and utter lack of understanding of the class and its application in real content in comparison to peer classes is... criminal

If you don't believe the state of Warlocks is poor, feel free to ask Furty, Deepshadowz, and Sparkuggz why they abandoned the class....

[benjaminandjen]

Things are bad. But popping a tome and respec depending on the situation is a decent work around for now.

[Deleted]

The amount of blatant misinformation being spread in this forum by people with a complete and utter lack of understanding of the class and its application in real content in comparison to peer classes is... criminal

If you don't believe the state of Warlocks is poor, feel free to ask Furty, Deepshadowz, and Sparkuggz why they abandoned the class....

I quote with my blood !

With the goods talents, Destrolock are not completely broken but we are falling way behind others classes.

This is not an opinion, this is a fact.

[Draxtor]

By that reasoning you could say that everyone besides WW and Havoc are shit including the oh so FOTM Fire Mages which get beaten quite badly by those and (properly specced) Destruction in dungeons.

For the record, Demo is in fact pretty good in right hands, because of its inherent limitations it requires higher skill cap to succeed and my choice of Destruction is not because Demo is shit, but because Destruction is the spec I mained for years and played in Alpha/Beta since it was unlocked and as such I know I will get the most out of it, compared to Demo.

But my offspec will be Demo simply because it has unbeatable and easy single target, which will be good at least in some EN encounters.

You clearly didn't do raid testing. And the "inherent limitations" don't require a higher skill cap they require a specific sort of fight. That fight being a patchwerk.

[Arcrin]

I am just returning to the game after being absent for all of WoD aside from leveling to 100. Prior to that I was a Heroic raider clearing content while current and I did very well in terms of performance.

I have always mained a Warlock and coming back this time I went to look up a few things about the ideal spec, rotation etc and see a ton of complaints and I ended up getting pretty disheartened about leveling my Lock.

Naturally I started to click on the Warlock profiles to see what kind of players are complaining and I haven't been able to find a single player that has any actual hardcore raiding experience commenting on low DPS which is making me wonder if it is the class or the player - as in, maybe the class DPS is low but a good player can still compete with other classes in DPS.

Is the class really as bad as people are saying it is all over the forums?

Again, I'm looking for people that have hardcore raiding experience - I'd appreciate a profile link if you have comments on the DPS (you can private message me it and I will keep it private) just so I can see because like I said, out of all the profiles I've clicked from people complaining, I haven't found anybody that has cleared content at all while it was current.

most ppl here are noobs who thinks its fun to fish in wow or dont even play the game, dont listen to them. warlock is fine, affliction has too much ramp up for 5mans right now, demo is cringe at best cause it relies on pet AI and destro destroys everything with havoc. im doing 170k dps single target if theres 2 targets im 230k+ and i AOE packs at 500k+ my record is 1,5million dps in maw of souls.On all trash up to first boss.

of course ppl will mention monks, DH's and fire mages but 2 of those will have nerfs incoming cause its broken what they do and how easily they do it.

you HAVE to work HARD for warlock dps to work compared to a lot of other clasees, take that in mind. warlocks weakness right now is mobility, it sucks so bad you have to save charges on your artifact for movement.

there are other classes doing better atm but also worse so warlocks arent bad as lots of ppl like to say, hurrdurr sparkuggz abandoned his warlock, now they're useless waaaahaaa.. he is also world first raid contender they have to squeeze out every .1% dmg him and 2 other warlocks in the world are in that situation.

[Trixxa]

No. Just no.

Maybe I should have clarified. You shouldn't be casting it on anything other than a single target, or a 2 target long lived fight with havoc. But those situations are almost non-existent in 5 mans aside from bosses

[Gaidax]

I think you're getting mana tap and eradication confused Gaidax, eradication effects all damage according to Gahddo but MT doesn't buff pets. That being said, I agree with you and others here. That same talent setup is what I use for dungeons and it works great. If you are casting Chaos Bolt on anything other than a boss in dungeons you're doing it wrong.

It is very simple to check if you don't believe me.

Just go summon your imp and see if firebolt does different damage with Eradication up or not, repeat the same with rifts.

You can clearly see that the damage is the same no matter whether Eradication is up or not.

As a side note, keep in mind that no matter how accomplished a person is - he can be wrong, check what you can check yourself and don't take anything as gospel just because X-senpai said so.

[Soulsworn]

You really do have to get a kick out of people posting their DPS numbers and announcing with such zeal that Warlocks are doing fine. What they fail to provide is context...

The latest simcrafts place warlocks at a roughly 2:3 disadvantage against peer classes in single target, Patchwerk fights. Demonology is parsing high on those sims but it is deceptive as Demo immediately becomes an invalid as soon as even light movement is required. Warlocks as a whole suffer from poor mobility and therefore are even worse off than the sims entail when put into practice. For every tool bragging about their perfect ilvl830 Warlock producing 180-220k single target DPS, they are neglecting to inform you of the 5 or so classes that are easily shelling out 300k+ and whom provide more in the way of utility. While many are saying, "Aha! But we do fine in AoE!", they are sorely mistaken and lack an applicable understanding of the class. Yes, Warlocks can produce some high AoE numbers, however to do so requires some gimmicky play that is largely dependent on long CD abilties that you may or, most likely, may not be able to effectively use in a raid boss fight. Not to mention that long-cast cleave is incredibly ineffective in capable groups where most priority spawns die within a few GCDs. Which brings me to my next point...

Are Warlocks viable for raiding? No, they are heavily outperformed by peer classes that are more than capable of fulfilling the same role while boasting more utility. Are Warlocks playable? Of course.... You can technically play a Guardian Druid as a DPS but that doesn't mean it is a great idea... The top Warlocks aren't sweating over 1-3% discrepancies, the actual discrepancies in-raid are much, much more significant outside of perma-cleave fights that allow Destruction to place upper-middle pack. There is a thread on the Serenity forums where all 3 Warlocks write the class off as a bad joke. Any seasoned player doesn't need a popular face to push a point across, so I offer that item for those who may hang on the word of any sort of authority figure they may find.

What is the problem with this thread, and honestly this site as a whole? You have players from W500+ guilds (borderline casual) that are speculating on issues that are well above and beyond their grasp and polluting the wider community with misinformation, half truths, and illogical opinions. --That last statement is sadly descriptive of nearly every single resource site these days as the hardcore community grows ever smaller and thus I, unfortunately, cannot provide you with a better source.

When you have Warlocks from several major guilds renouncing the class throughout all of WoD and commenting on the incapacity of the class going into Legion, I don't know how else to have you understand that there is a legitimate viability issue... You may open your mouth wide and stand under the drainage pipe for the cesspool that is the modern Warlock, but don't drag others under along with you telling them that it is rain...

[Inshabel]

You really do have to get a kick out of people posting their DPS numbers and announcing with such zeal that Warlocks are doing fine. What they fail to provide is context...

The latest simcrafts place warlocks at a roughly 2:3 disadvantage against peer classes in single target, Patchwerk fights. Demonology is parsing high on those sims but it is deceptive as Demo immediately becomes an invalid as soon as even light movement is required. Warlocks as a whole suffer from poor mobility and therefore are even worse off than the sims entail when put into practice. For every tool bragging about their perfect ilvl830 Warlock producing 180-220k single target DPS, they are neglecting to inform you of the 5 or so classes that are easily shelling out 300k+ and whom provide more in the way of utility. While many are saying, "Aha! But we do fine in AoE!", they are sorely mistaken and lack an applicable understanding of the class. Yes, Warlocks can produce some high AoE numbers, however to do so requires some gimmicky play that is largely dependent on long CD abilties that you may or, most likely, may not be able to effectively use in a raid boss fight. Not to mention that long-cast cleave is incredibly ineffective in capable groups where most priority spawns die within a few GCDs. Which brings me to my next point...

Are Warlocks viable for raiding? No, they are heavily outperformed by peer classes that are more than capable of fulfilling the same role while boasting more utility. Are Warlocks playable. Of course.... You can technically play a Guardian Druid as a DPS but that doesn't mean it is a great idea... The top Warlocks aren't sweating over 1-3% discrepancies, the actual discrepancies in-raid are much, much more significant outside of perma-cleave fights that allow Destruction to place upper-middle pack. There is a thread on the Serenity forums where all 3 Warlocks write the class off as a bad joke. Any seasoned player doesn't need a popular face to push a point across, so I offer that item for those who may hang on the word of any sort of authority figure they may find.

What is the problem with this thread, and honestly this site as a whole? You have players from W500+ guilds (borderline casual) that are speculating on issues that are well above and beyond their grasp and polluting the wider community with misinformation, half truths, and illogical opinions. --That last statement is sadly descriptive of nearly every single resource site these days as the hardcore community grows ever smaller and thus I, unfortunately, cannot provide you with a better source.

When you have Warlocks from several major guilds renouncing the class throughout all of WoD and commenting on the incapacity of the class going into Legion, I don't know how else to have you understand that there is a legitimate viability issue... You may open your mouth wide and stand under the drainage pipe for the cesspool that is the modern Warlock, but don't drag others under along with you telling them that it is rain...

TL;DR You casuals don't matter and you should just stop polluting the forums with your opions, that priviledge is only for Mythic raiders.

[Deleted]

Things are bad. But popping a tome and respec depending on the situation is a decent work around for now.

And a bad one. You as a warlock will constantly have to caryr (and pay for) masse sof tomes and ask the raid to wait whilst you juggle your talents and whatnot around, whilst they allwish they just had a mage who does neither and willpull way more dps anyway

[Gaidax]

You are all over the place.

First you say look at simulationcraft - sky is falling! BUT Demo does not count there because weaknesses (as if bloody Feral, Assas, Surv and Spriests have no issues lol), then you start talking about raids which has NOTHING to do with Simulationcraft and somehow get the conclusion in your very first sentence that Warlocks are not viable for raiding based on air basically.

Then finally you go down on top 500 Mythic raiding "casuals" who are apparently having no idea what they are talking about because again no bloody reason why.

Basically you said nothing useful and the fact that you are clear cut saying warlocks are not viable for raiding just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

And this is my problem with you and the likes of you, what you say is clear and outright exaggeration and pure bullshit based on air. To say there are issues is okay, but to say what you said is simply outright dishonesty.

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And a bad one. You as a warlock will constantly have to caryr (and pay for) masse sof tomes and ask the raid to wait whilst you juggle your talents and whatnot around, whilst they allwish they just had a mage who does neither and willpull way more dps anyway

First of all how is it different from carrying tomes in other expansions? Nothing changes and guild pays for these anyway at least in my case.

Secondly, believe it or not, mages too have Single Target spec and AoE spec, just not as overspecialized as Destruction one, which imo could be toned down by either making one of the 3 AoE talents baseline or adjusting RoF to be more usable.

[Deleted]

warlock is fine... of course ppl will mention monks, DH's and fire mages but 2 of those will have nerfs incoming cause its broken what they do and how easily they do it.

So what? Is Warlock fine NOW or will be fine IN THE FUTUR after the nerfs of the others classes?

With my ilvl835 Destrolock, I produce 180k in pure ST. My Teammates( Hunter, Mage, DH, Rogue, ..) with the same ilvl deal easily 240k+.
If for you, this situation is fine....

..sparkuggz abandoned his warlock, now they're useless waaaahaaa.. he is also world first raid contender they have to squeeze out every .1% dmg him and 2 other warlocks in the world are in that situation.

1 or 2%????? OK, there are trolls in this forum and it seems that they launched a disinformation campaign.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Maybe I should have clarified. You shouldn't be casting it on anything other than a single target, or a 2 target long lived fight with havoc. But those situations are almost non-existent in 5 mans aside from bosses

No, you're still incorrect. A rain of fire does 400% spellpower per mob assuming it hits all targets. or 133% spell power per shard.

A chaos bolt does 330% spellpower but actually 660% since it always crits (the fact that it has additional crit chance damage scaling cancels out the crits from RoF). So it does 330% spellpower per shard, but with havoc a Chaos bolt does 660% spellpower per shard.

So you need 660%/133% = 4.96 i.e 5+ mobs who will take all ticks of your RoF to make it worth casting over Chaos bolt using Havoc.

You really ought to know what you're talking about and the math behind it before you make statements about people doing it wrong.

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with the shadowburn build yes. Shadowburn actually does more dps in cleave than chaos bolt if you can spam it non-stop because shard regeneration , and for aoe incinerate + cataclysm is better.

You also have no idea what you're talking about. Not every mob dies within 5 seconds, which is the only way shadowburn aids regeneration. Eradication matters. Very few pulls in dungeons (unless your tank pulls multiple packs) actually warrant a warlock using AOE at the expense of Chaos bolt (ie. trading CB for RoF).

[lanesia24]

The main issue with warlocks and I don't think anyone that's played at least somewhat can deny is that we live and die too much by talents. You need to heavily invest in AoE talents to be do viable AoE damage, or you need to invest heavily in single target talents to do decent at single target and then the other areas suffer. Pick single target damage and do literally nothing on AoE. Talents should enhance imo not make a class viable in certain areas.

I've mainly dabbled with affliction and demo so far but affliction is really frustrating to play. First the damage is gated 3 different times. You need to have souls for your artifact weapon to be worth anything and there are many times where you can barely get a few souls or you have to sit there and save them all for a boss - absolutely poor design. Then you need soul shards to spend on UA to pump out any kind of burst or good single target damage. Then you need to wait for agony to ramp up which cripples you on anything that dies somewhat quickly (granted that makes DoTs kind of worthless in general) I'm more referring to an add thatmight live for 20 seconds or so by the time agony is ramped up it is dead.

I don't think a spec should have so many disadvantages in its ability to perform. There's times it feels powerful when you have everything and times where it feels almost worthless because you have nothing - too much of a pendulum swing to me. Some of you seem to forget that specs can't only be designed around their ability to function in raids. There's many other facets of the game such as dungeons, world questing, PvP, and more. Saying well Warlock should be fine in raids you just have to put up with sucking in dungeons isn't really good design and I don't understand why anyone would say a class is fine because you should be average in raids but terrible in dungeons. Blizzard has gone all in on dungeons this expansion so being terrible in them really isn't a good thing.

As far as demonology goes yes you can put out some decent AoE but you have to spam demonic empowerment repeatedly which is really really boring.

[transparent]

The main issue with warlocks and I don't think anyone that's played at least somewhat can deny is that we live and die too much by talents. You need to heavily invest in AoE talents to be do viable AoE damage, or you need to invest heavily in single target talents to do decent at single target and then the other areas suffer. Pick single target damage and do literally nothing on AoE. Talents should enhance imo not make a class viable in certain areas.

Exactly this, you hit the nail on the head with this. We either do okay in ST or AoE, but not great in either based off our talents. Some of those abilities need to be come baseline and THEN have a talent to boost that ability.

[Orwell7]

You are all over the place.

First you say look at simulationcraft - sky is falling! BUT Demo does not count there because weaknesses (as if bloody Feral, Assas, Surv and Spriests have no issues lol), then you start talking about raids which has NOTHING to do with Simulationcraft and somehow get the conclusion in your very first sentence that Warlocks are not viable for raiding based on air basically.

Then finally you go down on top 500 Mythic raiding "casuals" who are apparently having no idea what they are talking about because again no bloody reason why.

Basically you said nothing useful and the fact that you are clear cut saying warlocks are not viable for raiding just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

And this is my problem with you and the likes of you, what you say is clear and outright exaggeration and pure bullshit based on air. To say there are issues is okay, but to say what you said is simply outright dishonesty.

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First of all how is it different from carrying tomes in other expansions? Nothing changes and guild pays for these anyway at least in my case.

Secondly, believe it or not, mages too have Single Target spec and AoE spec, just not as overspecialized as Destruction one, which imo could be toned down by either making one of the 3 AoE talents baseline or adjusting RoF to be more usable.

Do you have problem understanding written sentenced?

He brings up points about Warlocks that are "common" questions from others who don't understand the class - they'll bring up simcraft, aoe, etc.
And he invalidates the points.

Can you please get Twitch up and record some dungeons?
I still feel stupid just because of you. 99% of warlocks are unhappy with this class, only you are the one remaining. It's like UFO's can't be proven to exists, but some weird people see them all the time! I want to believe!

[Purpleisbetter]

I won't deny there are some heay issues with the class, more so with Demo which forced my hand on picking something more reliable and stronger against hotfixing (no need to mention it in lock forum lol); but citing Simcraft right now is quite a bad idea and we should always consider that number hotfixing are bound to happen quite fast.

Furthermore, the world first racer are literally playing another WoW then we regular humans play. Their needs and their perception of what is good and what is bad is going to be inevitably different then those who are going to clear the content in 3+ months.

[Soulsworn]

I won't deny there are some heay issues with the class, more so with Demo which forced my hand on picking something more reliable and stronger against hotfixing (no need to mention it in lock forum lol); but citing Simcraft right now is quite a bad idea and we should always consider that number hotfixing are bound to happen quite fast.

Furthermore, the world first racer are literally playing another WoW then we regular humans play. Their needs and their perception of what is good and what is bad is going to be inevitably different then those who are going to clear the content in 3+ months.

Citing SimCraft is never a bad idea if you're interpreting it correctly... Blizzard left Warlocks broken for the vast majority of Warlords of Draenor, don't hold your breath waiting for balancing changes.

Oddly enough, yes, the mathematics that apply to the world first players still apply to you; their perception is based on pure performance of a class in the hands of a skilled player and therefore is typically more accurate than the wider community's. If your view point differs from the Warlock pulling world rank 1 parses on a non-pad fight, chances are you're probably horrifically wrong.

The fact that your guild may not be progressing at a similar rate and therefore doesn't experience such disadvantage from the current ~2:3 ration of Warlock output to peer classes (to say nothing of the utility drought) doesn't magically mean that any imbalance issues are null and void... It just means that you don't care...

Edit: Every time someone says, "you can't use SimCraft," I die a little on the inside. It is literally a projection of the mathematics that determines everything in the game. Is it 100% accurate? As accurate as mathematically possible... If you find fault with SimCraft (assuming the math used in the strings is correct, but mistakes are RARE) then the true issue is most likely PEBKAC... Interpretation is the key to the whole system...

Double Edit: And anyone who uses the term 'fun' in a post that discusses balancing issues should be stranded in a desert full of Lego bricks and coral!

[DeadmanWalking]

A lot of people, regardless of which class they are complaining about, will complain to no end unless their class is #1 in dps and are rolling death machines with no limitations so everyone can acknowedge just how awesome they believe themselves to be.

In the end of WOD every class was basically gimped, each class was designed to operate with an artifact weapon and its bonuses which we still have not completely maxed out.

For example the artifact weapon has 3 slots of +8% chance to increase the chance you crit with our dot which upon crit gives us a soul shard which can be expended on chaos bolt. You can also get % to not consume a shard while casting Chaos Bolt. You can also increase this again with socketed items so you can get +24% chance of criting which creates more resources for Chaos Bolt, and increased chance of not using a shard on said bolt. More Bolts=more dps.

But we are not death machines that can roll around the raid constantly firing off deeps and some people think this is the end of the world and howl to no end. Frankly they should of never let us get that powerful. I was at the point where my guild sent me on the conveyor belts by myself because I was so powerful they could put someone on extra boss deeps.

To many people on this forum if it isn't OP then it is broken.

I'm personally doing very well in my dungeon groups. I am not top dps in trash kills all the time, but on every single boss kill I am top dps. Trash deeps mean jack shit except for those people who like to touch themselves publicly. Being top dps on the boss while taking 0 damage because of a mix of natural defense (shields), my studying the fight mechanics ahead of time and raid awareness is far better than getting best dps #'s on trash packs.

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And a bad one. You as a warlock will constantly have to caryr (and pay for) masse sof tomes and ask the raid to wait whilst you juggle your talents and whatnot around, whilst they allwish they just had a mage who does neither and willpull way more dps anyway

If you can't manage your supply of tomes then you don't need to be in a serious raid group. If your raid group can't wait the 3 seconds to reset your talents then you need to find another raid group because yours sucks. Seriously you are just making shit up as if it is a real problem when it isn't even a thing. You click the tome, you click 'N', you tap 2-4 talents (click click click click) and you go. You don't have to do long math and you don't need to conjugate, you just do it.

Since we haven't gotten to raids yet there are no good raid sims, most dungeon fights are trash (no one cares what dps you do on them) and a single boss there are no good sims out there as to who is top tier yet.

Mages are complaining about the same crap we are here and if you don't believe me go visit their forums. If anyone has it bad it is elemental shaman as they are severely undertuned just in sheer #'s in comparison to enhancement.