[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Cyous]

If the median/goal was Fire Mage levels of DPS, I would consider that highly incompetent. Fortunately, this is not the case. They've done lots of tuning and adjustments, and we fall in the middle.

Variance plays a factor. High damage a low variance means your expected to reach those numbers. High variance is simply not ideal for a measuring stick. It doesn't matter where the DPS value stands, the goal is have a reliable control value for testing others' DPS value. That is literally the function of a measuring stick.

[Lucrece]

I wouldn't bet on nerfing mages. Arcane mages stayed broken for an entire tier. Hell, mages in general stay supreme above other specs if it isn't rogues instead. Occasionally a hunter, warrior or warlock sneaks in, but mage/rogue dominance seems so consistent across expansions, it feels like it's pretty much intended.

Hybrids get nerfed pretty much immediately. Look at enhancement shamans, windwalker monks, balance druids in cata first tier.

That's the least of balance druids' problems imo.

The real problem is in 5 mans where you are unwanted for 2 reasons:

1- No aoe stun. Anyone who has done mythics and especially higher keystones thus far is largely aware of how trash packs are far more deadly than bosses to a tank, and the ability to reduce damage to the tank to zero for 5 seconds every 30-45 seconds is immense.

You can't even pull like a DK, or hex/poly casters. The only offer is entangling roots on some low priority melee mob.

2- No meaningful group buffs like heroism, nor group healing like vampiric embrace/imposing presence.

Balance druid utility is simply trash tier, so if their DPS isn't in the upper echelons, they simply will be looked over by specialists who excel at SOMETHING.

Feral druid is pretty mediocre at aoe too, but AT LEAST they are the top single target DPS class in the game next to outlaw rogue and shadow priests, which helps melt bosses.

[Alame]

If the median/goal was Fire Mage levels of DPS, I would consider that highly incompetent. Fortunately, this is not the case. They've done lots of tuning and adjustments, and we fall in the middle.

Variance plays a factor. High damage a low variance means your expected to reach those numbers. High variance is simply not ideal for a measuring stick. It doesn't matter where the DPS value stands, the goal is have a reliable control value for testing others' DPS value. That is literally the function of a measuring stick.

I can have a measuring tape that measures furlongs with 100% accuracy and 0% variance - it's still useless because no one uses furlongs.
I can give a microbiologist a meter stick, that measures meters with 100% accuracy, but it's still useless to him because it's not a relevant scale.

Low variance does not a measuring stick make. If your argument is simply "we fall in the middle (which is still subjective) and have low variance therefore we are the end-goal of tuning" that is far more ignorant than I'd expect of you.

[huth]

A perfectly accurate measuring tape would be useful as long as we know the unit it uses. Just measure and convert to what you need.

For that matter, i'm sure a microbiologist could find use for a perfect meter stick, even if the basic unit it uses isn't useful.

Also, Cyous didn't argue that we're the end goal of tuning. We're the control group.

[Alame]

A perfectly accurate measuring tape would be useful as long as we know the unit it uses. Just measure and convert to what you need.

For that matter, i'm sure a microbiologist could find use for a perfect meter stick, even if the basic unit it uses isn't useful.

Also, Cyous didn't argue that we're the end goal of tuning. We're the control group.

Trying to take similes too literally here.

Sure a microbiologist can probably find some use for a meter stick, does that mean Blizzard's balance team can find some use for SW:ToR's balance, whatever it's state?

The only purpose of these similes is to describe that low variance does not instantly make a good measuring tool, there are other factors involved. You cannot invalidate that fact with quips that don't address the root problem.

Being the control group doesn't mean anything, if you're controlling for DPS, what are you testing? Even if you are the DPS control group, that doesn't mean that DPS is the ideal value, simply that the experimental group DPS is being altered.

We're either tuned well, or not. Calling it this and that doesn't change that. My experience and what I've seen of sims suggests that Balance is undertuned relative to other classes. Considering Blizzard is happy enough with the global state of tuning to release the game, it suggests that us being relatively undertuned is also us being undertuned in general. Saying "it's not us! Frost DK Ele shaman warlocks etc are undertuned and everyone else is overtuned!" is dumb. When Blizzard is happy with the tuning, the median class is well-tuned. If you're below that - which we are - you're undertuned.

[Kharahh]

This is the case for talents in other classes too. Hell, this is the case for damn near every talent in the game. Different playstyles within a group affects the value of different talents. Who knew?

I guess that is a design flaw on Blizzards part - even if you do talk to your tank or players to take accoutn of your playstyle, the fight it self might also make that difficult (plus a majority of people are not coordinated in the game .. LFG now with people catching up to 810 ilvl/ 110 is a great example).

Instead what they should do is:

1. Allow FoE follow its target automatically, where if the target dies, the onus is on the player to select a new mob for it to follow
2. Allow the player to move FoE on a target by target basis
3. The challenge should really lie in AsP generation, not targetting a mob by having to spam click and hope the damn thing is always on target

At this point in time it definitely does feel clunky - trying to keep track of timers, environmentals, nukes AND trying to move the beam whilst preempting boss movement is pretty full on. Granted its challenging but I am not sure if many would say it is fun.

[Frostyfire14]

I guess that is a design flaw on Blizzards part - even if you do talk to your tank or players to take accoutn of your playstyle, the fight it self might also make that difficult (plus a majority of people are not coordinated in the game .. LFG now with people catching up to 810 ilvl/ 110 is a great example).

Instead what they should do is:

1. Allow FoE follow its target automatically, where if the target dies, the onus is on the player to select a new mob for it to follow
2. Allow the player to move FoE on a target by target basis
3. The challenge should really lie in AsP generation, not targetting and AsP

At this point in time it definitely does feel clunky - trying to keep track of timers, environmentals, nukes AND trying to move the beam whilst preempting boss movement is pretty full on. Granted its challenging but I am not sure if many would say it is fun.

That's what I was thinking. The beam should 100% follow a target until it dies then allows the Druid to recast it on a new target (it will light up when able to be moved a.k.a. the target it was previously on, dies.) Imo this simple change would make this talent one helluva lot more managable. Not just for the Druid but for the group too.

[Weissrolf]

- New Moon -> Half Moon -> SW -> Starsurge - Kill
and then
- Full Moon -> Starsurge - Kill

I'm at 802 and just tried both of these combinations. Most of the time they don't seem to kill, there's always a bit left. NM->HM->SW doesn't create enough AP for SS even when AC is used. I will try BotA again. But overall it seems that I shouldn't mess so much with DoTs and keep to your listed strategies.

[huth]

I'm at 802 and just tried both of these combinations. Most of the time they don't seem to kill, there's always a bit left. NM->HM->SW doesn't create enough AP for SS even when AC is used. I will try BotA again. But overall it seems that I shouldn't mess so much with DoTs and keep to your listed strategies.

With BotA, NM-HM-SW will generate exactly 40 AP.

[lappee]

Trying to take similes too literally here.

Similes are used to explain things better. If yours is there just to fill out blank space then dont use them - and specially dont whine when someone rips it apart.
Right now it just seems to be the case of a heavy mouth breather - wants to be heard but doesnt say anything.

Sure a microbiologist can probably find some use for a meter stick, does that mean Blizzard's balance team can find some use for SW:ToR's balance, whatever it's state?

If they were measuring the same thing, sure. Those two just arent.
It's pretty much the same as asking "can you use pressure gauge for measuring distance"

[joltcola1234]

Similes are used to explain things better. If yours is there just to fill out blank space then dont use them - and specially dont whine when someone rips it apart.
Right now it just seems to be the case of a heavy mouth breather - wants to be heard but doesnt say anything.


If they were measuring the same thing, sure. Those two just arent.
It's pretty much the same as asking "can you use pressure gauge for measuring distance"

Hey Lappee,

What specs have you been having success with thus far? What is your opinion on the viability of FoE vs our other options like Natures Balance?

Curious to know what a real pro Moonkin feels!

[Alame]

Similes are used to explain things better. If yours is there just to fill out blank space then dont use them - and specially dont whine when someone rips it apart.

Except they do explain the concept - that things can have zero variance and still be useless as a measuring tool. Taking them completely out of context doesn't "rip it apart" it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept being discussed, or the concept of similes.

If they were measuring the same thing, sure. Those two just arent.
It's pretty much the same as asking "can you use pressure gauge for measuring distance"

So when a microbiologist is trying to measure the diameter of a cell and you helpfully give them a meter stick instead of a micrometer, the meter stick is suddenly useless for the task at hand. Sure, you can measure the width of your lab with it, but it in no way helps to accomplish the task at hand.

It's almost as if I was trying to make the point that finding a use for something somewhere doesn't make it useful in the given scenario. Oh wait! That's exactly the point I was trying to make!

Right now it just seems to be the case of a heavy mouth breather - wants to be heard but doesnt say anything.

Little ironic, considering the entirety of your contributions to this thread as a whole are to drop in, echo someone else's opinion, and be condescending to anyone who disagrees with you.

It's been enchanting as always Lappee, I do so enjoy when you decide to grace us with your presence.

[ColbaneX]

Similes are used to explain things better. If yours is there just to fill out blank space then dont use them - and specially dont whine when someone rips it apart.
Right now it just seems to be the case of a heavy mouth breather - wants to be heard but doesnt say anything.


If they were measuring the same thing, sure. Those two just arent.
It's pretty much the same as asking "can you use pressure gauge for measuring distance"

So what's your take on Boomie atm? Will I be fine in EN or will I be a detriment to the raid and should bring another class?(assume skill is a nonfactor)

[joltcola1234]

Except they do explain the concept - that things can have zero variance and still be useless as a measuring tool. Taking them completely out of context doesn't "rip it apart" it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept being discussed, or the concept of similes.



So when a microbiologist is trying to measure the diameter of a cell and you helpfully give them a meter stick instead of a micrometer, the meter stick is suddenly useless for the task at hand. Sure, you can measure the width of your lab with it, but it in no way helps to accomplish the task at hand.

It's almost as if I was trying to make the point that finding a use for something somewhere doesn't make it useful in the given scenario. Oh wait! That's exactly the point I was trying to make!



Little ironic, considering the entirety of your contributions to this thread as a whole are to drop in, echo someone else's opinion, and be condescending to anyone who disagrees with you.

It's been enchanting as always Lappee, I do so enjoy when you decide to grace us with your presence.

Sigh, how about we get back on topic.

[Synadrasa]

I remember when cyous was arguing with mikepreachwow that the starfall nerf wasn't bad. Lawl wheres our aoe now?

[Madus]

Shadow Crash

Defile

Cataclysm

Liquid Magma Totem

Ravager

You can't even move these like you can with FoE.

Yet , all those are easy and much more possible to use in pvp compared to FoE.

[Cyous]

I remember when cyous was arguing with mikepreachwow that the starfall nerf wasn't bad. Lawl wheres our aoe now?

Yeah, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. WOD Starfall was a shitty design. Damage output is just a number. It's not a nerf unless you need to be carried by passive mechanics.

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Except they do explain the concept - that things can have zero variance and still be useless as a measuring tool. Taking them completely out of context doesn't "rip it apart" it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept being discussed, or the concept of similes.



So when a microbiologist is trying to measure the diameter of a cell and you helpfully give them a meter stick instead of a micrometer, the meter stick is suddenly useless for the task at hand. Sure, you can measure the width of your lab with it, but it in no way helps to accomplish the task at hand.

It's almost as if I was trying to make the point that finding a use for something somewhere doesn't make it useful in the given scenario. Oh wait! That's exactly the point I was trying to make!



Little ironic, considering the entirety of your contributions to this thread as a whole are to drop in, echo someone else's opinion, and be condescending to anyone who disagrees with you.

It's been enchanting as always Lappee, I do so enjoy when you decide to grace us with your presence.

No shit. We can grab any measuring tool and apply it somewhere useless. What the fuck does that prove? We are comparing DPS to DPS. We are in the middle of the pack, naturally, "the average" is a good indicator of where things ought to be. We have almost no variance, which is a good quality to have in a measuring device. If we're looking for a control group, then need to have none/little noise, variance, swing, range, whatever is a mandatory quality. It's called an error bar for a reason, and the lower the error bar, the better your data.

Stop trying to pair "cells" with "meters" -- that clearly isn't the right fucking tool. My actual comment isn't anywhere close to the scale of your shitty example and you know it.

All you've done for the past year is bitch and moan about everything you disliked. You never budged on any topics, and frankly it's a pain in the ass trying to have a conversation that doesn't include these Chicken Little posts. Our design is exceptionally stable and actually fun -- so says A LOT of players. Mostly people post about things they don't like (you being a great example of this), and yet I see more comments about how good Balance plays -- regardless of damage.

If we need more damage output, or overtuned specs need nerfs, they should happen. But derailing every discussion is literally the worst thing you can do because it makes it harder to read the actual discussion. Stop whining about everything. Go play a fucking Mage if you're gonna bitch about DPS every week, or re-roll to Resto or Feral. But jesus fuck man, it one thing to disagree, it's another to post with the behavior of a 4-year-old's temper tantrum ... for the entire Alpha, the entire Beta, and pre-patch, and first week of launch.

[Madus]

Yeah, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. WOD Starfall was a shitty design. Damage output is just a number. It's not a nerf unless you need to be carried by passive mechanics.

Would not say that WOD starfall was shit. More boring maybe, but on other way (with SF attacking only on our dotted targets) we could still have that massive cleave ability (with empower mechanic) where targets are 30 yards apart. Right now we are just another DKs with slower ramp...
Also for purpose of "placing starfall" we still could have Hurricane or different FoE.

[Alame]

Yeah, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. WOD Starfall was a shitty design. Damage output is just a number. It's not a nerf unless you need to be carried by passive mechanics.

A true-to-its-roots, iconic ability existing long before WoW did, that required the druid to be conscious of how they used it, or glyph to make it idiot-proof, an ability that most of us loved and used with glee throughout WotLK & WoD. Bad design.

It's literally the same as Rain of Fire and Blizzard except it's centered on your hero. What about it is bad design? The radius? Centering on your hero? Are immolation aura and Remorseless Winter also bad design? The mis-pulling was fixed by the implementation of the glyph to be baseline & the glyph to untame. If removal of the glyph system if the problem then add a method to untame through a small questline like they did with Flap.

Push button -> receive AoE around you vs. push button -> receive AoE at target location. How the hell does adding the need to designate a target zone make starfall not "passive damage"?

Should DoTs be removed for being passive damage? What about bladestorm? Now that Starfall is "active" how do you feel about the "passive" damage of DoT empowerments?

That you can call WoD starfall bad design while defending an obsolete and poorly-executed empowerment system is astonishing.

All you've done for the past year is bitch and moan about everything you disliked. You never budged on any topics, and frankly it's a pain in the ass trying to have a conversation that doesn't include these Chicken Little posts. Our design is exceptionally stable and actually fun -- so says A LOT of players. Mostly people post about things they don't like (you being a great example of this), and yet I see more comments about how good Balance plays -- regardless of damage.

If we need more damage output, or overtuned specs need nerfs, they should happen. But derailing every discussion is literally the worst thing you can do because it makes it harder to read the actual discussion. Stop whining about everything. Go play a fucking Mage if you're gonna bitch about DPS every week, or re-roll to Resto or Feral. But jesus fuck man, it one thing to disagree, it's another to post with the behavior of a 4-year-old's temper tantrum ... for the entire Alpha, the entire Beta, and pre-patch, and first week of launch.

I wonder if I "whine" because I hate the rework? And I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else that slings it around here. If you think a class with zero reactive gameplay is fun then nuts to you, you'll love new Balance. I prefer having to think on my feet and adapt to the situation at hand, which Balance provides little-to-none of.

If all you want is a bunch of yes men telling you that all of your opinions are right you're definitely in the wrong place.

As for derailing the discussion, the discussion is about balance being undertuned and you come along and say "everything's fine nothing to see here" and I'm the one derailing the discussion? You think balance is so well tuned they should be the marker for other classes to be tuned towards, great. Say "I think balance is well tuned", don't come in tell everyone the discussion is pointless because they're wrong then get pissy when someone challenges that.

[lappee]

Little ironic, considering the entirety of your contributions to this thread as a whole are to drop in, echo someone else's opinion, and be condescending to anyone who disagrees with you.

It's been enchanting as always Lappee, I do so enjoy when you decide to grace us with your presence.

Problem is I'm not echoing anyones opinion nor have I said whether I agree or disagree with you or anyone else. All I'm doing is show how shitty your comments in this thread are

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Hey Lappee,

What specs have you been having success with thus far? What is your opinion on the viability of FoE vs our other options like Natures Balance?

Curious to know what a real pro Moonkin feels!

I've been running FoE on solo and dungeon content, can't see NB being any good when bosses go down in a minute or two and as we keep getting gear this wont change in the upcoming weeks. Once Mythic+ and Raids are available I'll start considering other options depending on encounters.

So what's your take on Boomie atm? Will I be fine in EN or will I be a detriment to the raid and should bring another class?(assume skill is a nonfactor)

I'm not in a position to really comment this since I have lacking knowledge of other classes and their tools. After all it comes down to dps we're able to pull on encounters and since I havent done any real TC nor have I raid tested more than the very first raid tests half a year ago all I can really do is turn you to someone else - like Cyous.