[Feral] Legion Discussion

[Themessiah]

so, does Blood Scent give your bleeds the 10% crit aswell? they're abilities so it sounds like it would but maybe not so idk.

second, is it a big dps loss single target compared to lunar?

It's not a huge loss. Given that Blood Scent makes following your rotation easier, there is some sense in the claim that it might increase your dps, namely by helping one to play better.

To put it another way, a well executed Blood Scent rotation outperforms a poorly executed Lunar rotation.

[Phases]

What addons do you guys use for feral? I've been looking for some weakauras but can't really find any good ones. Im looking for some that makes tracking bleeds/buffs easier.

[automation]

What addons do you guys use for feral? I've been looking for some weakauras but can't really find any good ones. Im looking for some that makes tracking bleeds/buffs easier.

I'll post my WeakAuras config and maybe a gif of it in action when I get home.

Basically I have two dynamic groups: one for "actionable things", and one for "self-buffs".

Actionable things includes timers for:
Clearcasting buff on me
Rake debuff on target
Rip debuff on target
Predatory swiftness buff on me
Tiger's fury cooldown
Savage roar buff on me
Berserk cooldown
Artifact cooldown

Buffs on me includes timers for:
Berserk buff on me
Tiger's fury buff on me
Probably going to add bloodlust and other buffs here when I get re-acquainted with the game

Also, I have added a custom lua script to WeakAuras to make the actionable bars change color when they reach pandemic range, which makes deciding priority very easy.

I use DroodFocus for energy bar, some longer CDs, and to track bloodtalon stacks

My setup is currently configured for single-target bossfight optimization. Still working on figuring the best path to becoming good at clearing AoE trash. I'll probably tailor my addon config based on my findings.



Edit: need to give credit to Colin S, whoever that is, on YouTube for making these handy tutorials on WeakAuras

Edit2: can't post YouTube link yet, search "WeakAuras Tutorial Day 3: Tracking Debuffs on your Target, Dynamic Groups, and Progress Bars" on YouTube

[Phases]

I'll post my WeakAuras config and maybe a gif of it in action when I get home.

Basically I have two dynamic groups: one for "actionable things", and one for "self-buffs".

Actionable things includes timers for:
Clearcasting buff on me
Rake debuff on target
Rip debuff on target
Predatory swiftness buff on me
Tiger's fury cooldown
Savage roar buff on me
Berserk cooldown
Artifact cooldown

Buffs on me includes timers for:
Berserk buff on me
Tiger's fury buff on me
Probably going to add bloodlust and other buffs here when I get re-acquainted with the game

Also, I have added a custom lua script to WeakAuras to make the actionable bars change color when they reach pandemic range, which makes deciding priority very easy.

I use DroodFocus for energy bar, some longer CDs, and to track bloodtalon stacks

My setup is currently configured for single-target bossfight optimization. Still working on figuring the best path to becoming good at clearing AoE trash. I'll probably tailor my addon config based on my findings.



Edit: need to give credit to Colin S, whoever that is, on YouTube for making these handy tutorials on WeakAuras

Edit2: can't post YouTube link yet, search "WeakAuras Tutorial Day 3: Tracking Debuffs on your Target, Dynamic Groups, and Progress Bars" on YouTube

Looks great man! That seems like what i am looking for! I will look when i am awake tomorrow how to set it all up. I really enjoy feral right now, hopefully i can push my performance with some better buff/debuff tracking!

[automation]

Looks great man! That seems like what i am looking for! I will look when i am awake tomorrow how to set it all up. I really enjoy feral right now, hopefully i can push my performance with some better buff/debuff tracking!

Yeah, I'm enjoying it too, although I have my concerns about the playstyle I am having a lot of fun.

So the addons I use are DotFocus 1.1.22 and WeakAuras 2. WeakAuras is configured with two Dynamic Groups.

Still can't post a link to youtube (since I have a low postcount) so here's the youtube code: XtYjcR54c3g -- You can see near the end of the video when the buffs/debuffs are falling off, their bars become black. To achieve that pandemic recoloring, I applied the following lua function to Rake and Rip (this is directly copied from one of Colin S's videos):

function(p,r1,g1,b1,a1,r2,g2,b2,a2)
    -- Debuff name and threshold to recast time here (match the trigger)
    local debuff_name, warning_time = "Rake", 3
    
    local expires_at = select(7, UnitDebuff("target", debuff_name, nil, "PLAYER|HARMFUL"))
    
    if expires_at ~= nil then
        local time_left = expires_at - GetTime()
        if time_left < warning_time then
            return r2, g2, b2, a2
        end
    end
    
    return r1, g1, b1, a1
end

Note: the warning_time for rip is 4.8 seconds, the code snippet above is for rake which has a 3 sec pandemic window.

Savage Roar was a different beast, I couldn't find a tutorial on how to make this work so I had to look up the UnitBuff function in the wowprogramming API documentation. Turns out it's pretty easy to get the expired time from UnitBuff, similar to UnitDebuff it's the 7th return value so using select() on it works nicely.

function(p,r1,g1,b1,a1,r2,g2,b2,a2)
    -- Debuff name and threshold to recast time here (match the trigger)
    local buff_name, warning_time = "Savage Roar", 10.5
    
    local expires_at = select(7, UnitBuff("player", buff_name))
    
    if expires_at ~= nil then
        local time_left = expires_at - GetTime()
        if time_left < warning_time then
            return r2, g2, b2, a2
        end
    end
    
    return r1, g1, b1, a1
end

Shorter pandemic timers with jagged wounds causes Savage Roar optimal refresh to be around 10.5 seconds (unconfirmed).

Here are the exported strings for my Weak Auras functions.

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As for DotFocus, you can see I disable most of its functionality. Above my scrolling combat text you can see it lists targets with their dots, that's the main use for DotFocus along with the energy bar and cooldown icons.

My UI is far from complete, but you can see how this dynamic group makes actionable priorities easier to keep track of in a chronologically sorted list.

Edit: refresh timer for SR is 10.5 seconds with jagged wounds pandemic timers.

[Oranguto]

What is the optimal Feral opener with LI and Savage Roar?

I understand the priority list but my burst doesn't seem to be that high in mythics. I'm around like 646 bursting for around 230k. Doesn't feel right.

[automation]

What is the optimal Feral opener with LI and Savage Roar?

I understand the priority list but my burst doesn't seem to be that high in mythics. I'm around like 646 bursting for around 230k. Doesn't feel right.

I'm having trouble with this too, as you can see in my video I am using the recommended "optimal" opener of HT > Rake > Moonfire > SR > Berserk+TF > AF > Shred to 5 > Rip > HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR

It just doesn't seem truly optimal, but the only other option I can think of is to do a full rotation of 5cp > SR without berserk, saving berserk for the inevitable combo point starvation period after initial setup rotation. Berserk immediately during opener seems to be almost always overcapping me on energy, and also being mostly wasted on shreds to build combo points which sucks. I'm thinking it's better to use FB twice with SR up to achieve 400k+ FB crits while max strength dots are rolling from the opener. As evidence of berserk being suboptimal in the opener, in the video I posted above I went over cap for a bit more than one GCD, wasting around 10-15 energy.

The other problem with berserk during initial opener/bleed-setup is the fact that using bloodtalons effectively costs too many GCDs, which sets you back significantly during berserk.

I think the key here is ferocious bite. FB benefits greatly from berserk because the bonus energy cost is also halved, so I think it's better to use berserk for two combo point rotations to finish with FB. FB is a great energy dump ability so it has nice synergy with berserk. This will only work if you don't need to refresh rip or SR any time soon. With 819 gear I've seen FB crit for over 415k. Two back-to-back 400k FB crits with max strength dots rolling can raise DPS significantly.

I'll do some more testing later, I only had about a half hour to make the video I uploaded yesterday. I'll spend some time on calculating burst DPS for openers and trying to figure out the best possible opener rotation, because the currently recommended "optimal" rotation feels wrong.

If I were to guess, I'd say the best possible opener is:

HT > Prowl > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR > Moonfire > Shred to 4 > HT > TF > Rake > Rip > HT > AF > Shred (to get low energy) > Berserk > Shred to 5 (if needed) > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Shred > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Rake > Rip > Return to normal rotation (moonfire/SR need to be refreshed at this point)


Also, slight edit on my last post, with the shorter pandemic windows using jagged wounds it seems SR should be recast at around 10.5 seconds instead of 7.2, though it's still early in this patch and there isn't a consensus on the exact timing yet.

[Tkaczu]

Guys, I really recommend addon FeralDotDamage. I could never get use to any weak auras setting I could bring (not to mention so many hours wasted on that). On top of basic timers for bleed duration there is amazing feature to have rake / rip / fb (below 25%) displayed in different colors, to quickly see if you can put stronger dot and that makes BT management very easy.
This is best addon for ferals since feral by night (not lite version!).

[Tradu]

I'm having trouble with this too, as you can see in my video I am using the recommended "optimal" opener of HT > Rake > Moonfire > SR > Berserk+TF > AF > Shred to 5 > Rip > HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR

It just doesn't seem truly optimal, but the only other option I can think of is to do a full rotation of 5cp > SR without berserk, saving berserk for the inevitable combo point starvation period after initial setup rotation. Berserk immediately during opener seems to be almost always overcapping me on energy, and also being mostly wasted on shreds to build combo points which sucks. I'm thinking it's better to use FB twice with SR up to achieve 400k+ FB crits while max strength dots are rolling from the opener. As evidence of berserk being suboptimal in the opener, in the video I posted above I went over cap for a bit more than one GCD, wasting around 10-15 energy.

The other problem with berserk during initial opener/bleed-setup is the fact that using bloodtalons effectively costs too many GCDs, which sets you back significantly during berserk.

I think the key here is ferocious bite. FB benefits greatly from berserk because the bonus energy cost is also halved, so I think it's better to use berserk for two combo point rotations to finish with FB. FB is a great energy dump ability so it has nice synergy with berserk. This will only work if you don't need to refresh rip or SR any time soon. With 819 gear I've seen FB crit for over 415k. Two back-to-back 400k FB crits with max strength dots rolling can raise DPS significantly.

I'll do some more testing later, I only had about a half hour to make the video I uploaded yesterday. I'll spend some time on calculating burst DPS for openers and trying to figure out the best possible opener rotation, because the currently recommended "optimal" rotation feels wrong.

If I were to guess, I'd say the best possible opener is:

HT > Prowl > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR > Moonfire > Shred to 4 > HT > TF > Rake > Rip > HT > AF > Shred (to get low energy) > Berserk > Shred to 5 (if needed) > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Shred > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Rake > Rip > Return to normal rotation (moonfire/SR need to be refreshed at this point)


Also, slight edit on my last post, with the shorter pandemic windows using jagged wounds it seems SR should be recast at around 10.5 seconds instead of 7.2, though it's still early in this patch and there isn't a consensus on the exact timing yet.

Please explain how increasing the damage of the next 2 abilities by 50% is a "waste" during Berserk. Also you're way too focused on Pathetic Nibble, what matters is keeping bleeds, MF and SR up. Using Pathetic Nibble(especially outside Berserk) makes this much more difficult(likely impossible), and the minor "burst" damage is not even remotely worth it.
Also your Berserk is waaaaay too late. The idea with Berserk is to use it to set up your DoTs/SR quickly and then maintain them from then on, not to use a bunch of Pathetic Nibbles.

[Deleted]

If I were to guess, I'd say the best possible opener is:

HT > Prowl > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR > Moonfire > Shred to 4 > HT > TF > Rake > Rip > HT > AF > Shred (to get low energy) > Berserk > Shred to 5 (if needed) > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Shred > FB > Shred to 4 > HT > Rake > Rip > Return to normal rotation (moonfire/SR need to be refreshed at this point)

for this opener to work and for you to not lose uptime on rip or rake, you'd need 50% haste or so. no go.

assuming bloodlust and 100% crit chance but no OOC you drop rake for 2 globals on your 11th and 12th global. you go 16 over energy cap on your 13th global. not gonna bother going further than that cause basically this wont be particularly good , and the gain in damage from casting two FBs is super negligible. i.e. non existent. With a reasonable amount of haste from lust, so 30% this is like a 35 global opener.

FB IS NOT GOOD, it has less DPET than either moonfire or rake only just double the DPET of shred


The best 2 possibilities are almost 100%

the only debatable part of these is the LI before or after SR. Both can work though.


Option 1
Pre HT > Rake > LI > SR > Berserk TF> AF > Shred to 5cps > Rip > HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR
Option 2
Pre HT > Rake > LI > SR > Shred to 5 > TF Berserk at low energy > Rip > ht Rake > AF > Shred if needed > SR

IIRC its been simmed and the early SR is deffinetly the best way to go over shredding to 5 to sr


and lastly, because its practically traditional at this point. Don't be retarded, do maffs before you suggest stupid stuff.

casting 2 fbs.

kom igen

[automation]

Please explain how increasing the damage of the next 2 abilities by 50% is a "waste" during Berserk.

I literally did not say that. Re-read my post. I said berserk makes using bloodtalons *effectively* very difficult. The problem is, without FB finisher, you are almost always overcapped on energy during berserk because of GCD from HT casts. If you have time to cast 2 FBs while SR and rip are both at a healthy duration, why not cast FB? What else are you going to cast? SR again when it's still got 18 sec remaining?

and lastly, because its practically traditional at this point. Don't be retarded, do maffs before you suggest stupid stuff.

Been posting around asking for some resources on sims/maths tools, no one has given any input on this. There are tons of people quoting "it's been simmed that XYZ is true" without providing a link to the sim or any comparison to another sim site.

So I'm not sure where to look or what the best program is. I've found a bunch of web-based ones that are sketchy.

For example, I just found http://www.askmrrobot.com/, and the first simulation I ran actually executed the exact rotation I suggested in my last post.

http://i.imgur.com/A93Ezgi.jpg

Everyone seems to have an answer but no one seems to provide a source.

[teddabear]

I literally did not say that. Re-read my post. I said berserk makes using bloodtalons *effectively* very difficult. The problem is, without FB finisher, you are almost always overcapped on energy during berserk because of GCD from HT casts. If you have time to cast 2 FBs while SR and rip are both at a healthy duration, why not cast FB? What else are you going to cast? SR again when it's still got 18 sec remaining?


Been posting around asking for some resources on sims/maths tools, no one has given any input on this. There are tons of people quoting "it's been simmed that XYZ is true" without providing a link to the sim or any comparison to another sim site.

So I'm not sure where to look or what the best program is. I've found a bunch of web-based ones that are sketchy.

For example, I just found http://www.askmrrobot.com/, and the first simulation I ran actually executed the exact rotation I suggested in my last post.

http://i.imgur.com/A93Ezgi.jpg

Everyone seems to have an answer but no one seems to provide a source.

Go to feral discord. All the theorycrafters are there.

[Deleted]

So I'm not sure where to look or what the best program is. I've found a bunch of web-based ones that are sketchy.

simulationcraft is basically the only one. AMR is a work in progress and is very inaccurate. its about a 100k+ dps behind simcraft. And openers are simmed individually because programming an API to open specifically is a massive pia

[MaddyLif3]

Guys, I really recommend addon FeralDotDamage. I could never get use to any weak auras setting I could bring (not to mention so many hours wasted on that). On top of basic timers for bleed duration there is amazing feature to have rake / rip / fb (below 25%) displayed in different colors, to quickly see if you can put stronger dot and that makes BT management very easy.
This is best addon for ferals since feral by night (not lite version!).

Good add-on but I prefer DotFocus, basically does same thing, looks cleaner and has a lot more customization

[Tradu]

Go to feral discord. All the theorycrafters are there.

Or fluiddruid, but the discord is much better for (near) instant feedback.

[Sar-]

I see TF just got massively nerfed in 7.1?

+60 down to +20 rage? O_o

[Swol]

simulationcraft is basically the only one. AMR is a work in progress and is very inaccurate. its about a 100k+ dps behind simcraft.

This is a completely false statement. I'm Swol, the main theorycrafter for AMR and the guy who implemented all of the Feral mechanics.

First off: the AMR simulator is very accurate. More accurate than SimC in many cases. By accurate, I mean that if you use the same APL in both simulators, you will get the same result. I have spent countless hours cross-checking the two simulators, and I always find more bugs in SimC than in AMR. I pass that info along to SimC and they usually fix them up pretty quickly.

For the first time in a long time, we have two independent simulation projects that are fully implemented and maintained. This is good for everybody because it increases the accuracy of both projects. Anyone trying to tell you that you should only use one or the other doesn't understand what they are talking about. I understand that AMR is a newer project so the trust has to be built up, but I am available on our discord and forums most of the time to field any questions or concerns.

Now, regarding this supposed 100k DPS difference between AMR and SimC... that's just funny, really. Whoever came up with that number didn't know how to set up both simulators to do the same thing. I will explain:

I used the default APL in SimC along with the template pre-raid gear to do a simulation. The only change I made was to turn off augmentation runes and potions for testing. I left flask/food active. Using the best single-target talents that gave me a result of 310,868 DPS. Best single-target talents are Lunar Inspiration, Savage Roar, Jagged Wounds, and Bloodtalons.

I translated that same APL into AMR here:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...ive&share=true

Using that APL in AMR with the same gear as the SimC template I get this for the result (303,437 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...35dc3e4d903683

So, that is much less than 100,000 DPS difference. By my math it looks like about 7500 DPS. Why is there a 7500 DPS difference? Two reasons:
1.) SimC has bugs.
2.) SimC plays a tad more "perfectly" than the AMR simulator.

What are the bugs in SimC? I don't have time to track down every tiny issue, but, I can say for sure that SimC's Rake damage is too high. Some quick in-game testing and a few simulations only using rake confirmed this. The folks maintaining the SimC Feral druid module will have to track down the other discrepancies that might exist.

Regarding point 2: AMR was designed from the ground up to choose actions more like a human player. Humans need to anticipate their next action and "queue it up" a tad before the current GCD ends to avoid lag between abilities. This affects what they can react to. For example, in SimC when you are waiting for energy, the simulator will use an ability almost immediately once you have the required energy, to within less than 1 point of energy. In-game you cannot actually press the button to use the ability until you have the required energy, so, reaction time and lag come into play. Even if you are very good, you won't be able to use an energy spender after pooling as perfectly as SimC. AMR incorporates more human (although still elite-level) reflexes, which can account for some small differences in total damage output from the two simulators.

So, that is why you see the 7500 DPS difference between the simulators. Once SimC fixes the few bugs in the Feral module, the two simulators will be very close together.

AMR is actually a little more accurate than SimC in the case of Feral Druids.

I also suspect that Guiltyas was referring to the fact that our default rotation(APL) was not as optimized as the one being used in SimC. That was true for Bloodtalons (although the difference was nowhwere near 100k DPS, it was about 20k). The SimC APL is very complex for feral. I have since improved the default rotation on the AMR simulator to be on par for the talent combination listed above. Our new default rotation performs much better than the SimC rotation for a number of talent combinations, especially when using Soul of the Forest (12k increase compared to SimC). You will often find that SimC APL development is very good for the best talents, and generally ignored for less popular or theoretically inferior talents. I spend time on the less-used talent choices as well. So, if you want to get a true comparison of the relative strength of talents, you would want to use AMR right now. I do this because it is important to quantify the difference between talents instead of just saying: "Use Jagged Wounds instead of Soul of the Forest, it's better." I want to tell people the relative difference between all three talents in that tier and let them decide for themselves which talent they want to use.

This is my feral druid rotation for reference:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...l&version=live

I am still tweaking and improving the AoE portion of the rotation for Feral. Feral's AoE is really not that good, but, I still want to get the most out of it that I can.

[Zoopercat]

For those of you looking for TLDR:

SimC is bugged for one of your main abilities.

AMR is correct, and to help you out we even recreated the SimC rotation for you to use in our simulator (you can also use our default one which is really good too). Here's a link to the SimC rotation that you can use: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...ive&share=true

Here's an intro video if you're still new to the AMR simulator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZU4...LIWEa6&index=1

[Hari]

I see TF just got massively nerfed in 7.1?

+60 down to +20 rage? O_o

It's +20 "restore" energy but new it "generates an additional 40 energy." so what does it mean? hmm..

And i just loot Memento of angerboda in MM , is that a good trinket?

[Zoopercat]

CORRECTION! The problem is from a rake relic in simC. I feel AWFUL, I have such a hard time using SimC's id's and stuff to build relics since I'm so used to just clicking on it in AMR and it working. MY FAULT!!! SOOOOOOOOOOOOO Super sorry. SUPER SUPER SUPER sorry.

RAKE is NOT bugged in SimC. (Thanks to the simc devs who helped me figure out how to do the relics).