Val'kyr: Am I Missing Something?

[Jokubas]

So a friend was asking me about Odyn and Helya, and I was a little fuzzy on the details myself, so I decided to go back and read the relevant segments of the Chronicle. Afterward, I was only more confused, so I want to know if I'm missing something.

Here's a quick summary of the story of Odyn and Helya from the Chronicle:
Odyn didn't trust the Dragon Aspects to defend Azeroth, so he wanted his own army to do the same thing. His idea was to grab the souls of epic warriors from the Shadowlands when they died, and bring them to the Halls of Valor. The problem was, someone needed to be undead to do said ferrying. No one wanted to do it, and Helya tried to talk him out of the whole thing. In response, Odyn turned her undead against her will, to be the first val'kyr. Others were also turned undead against their will to be her val'kyr servants. Helya and the other val'kyr were sworn to follow Odyn's orders, despite not wanting to, so Odyn got his army.

Meanwhile, Loken was being corrupted by Yogg-Saron. He needed Odyn out of the way, but knew he could not win a war against him. Instead, he decided to go to Helya, who hated Odyn. They freed Helya from her obligation to follow Odyn's orders, and she removed Odyn from the picture by sealing the Halls of Valor away in a pocket dimension. Now Helya and the rest of her val'kyr were free, and the ones with any nobility left broke away to become the Spirit Healers.

Why this confused me:
In the Chronicle, the val'kyr are undead. In Legion, they appear to be creatures of the Light.
In the Chronicle, no one wanted to be a val'kyr, and they all had to be forced. In Legion, becoming a val'kyr seems to be a great honor that people must earn.
In the Chronicle, the val'kyr were on Helya's side and with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed. In Legion, Odyn has val'kyr, but it doesn't look like Helya does.
In the Chronicle, Helya was the leader of the val'kyr, even after breaking from Odyn. In Legion, it appears as if Eyir (who wasn't in the Chronicle) is.

This bugs me because Legion doesn't really go into detail about the relationship between these powers. I thought that was because we already had the lore in the Chronicle, but it looks like an almost completely different story to me. Am I missing something?

[Deleted]

Well, Chronicle describe past. Legion is now.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That is definitely confusing. I've been through Stormheim and it seemed like there was more Angelic like Val'kyr. So...yeah


/confused

[Jokubas]

It's possible that the piece of the puzzle we are missing is the Lich King. Maybe he stole Helya's Val'kyr. Also back then Odyn wanted to turn titanforged into Val'kyr. They were immortal and they were aware they were being used. Now, the vrykul have been indoctrinated for years to seek the Halls of Valor; as mortal creatures due to the Curse of Flesh, they see it as a reward of immortality (which it is)

That's a good point about the Lich King stuff. It's currently a bit of an anomaly, but it would make sense to fill that hole.

Some things definitely make sense as a shift over time. Eyir, for instance. The Chronicle doesn't mention her, but it makes sense if Odyn replaced Helya with her after Helya's betrayal. There are still a few questions though. The dungeon journal for Hyrja calls Eyir a titan watcher, and Eyir doesn't seem to mind being a val'kyr, so where was she when they were first chosen? Also, why were Odyn's val'kyr undead in the past, and not now? If they were always angelic creatures of the Light, it seems like Helya and others would have been less resistant to it, because it seems less of a curse.

[Aucald]

It's my understanding that there are two types of Val'kyr - the Light-aligned creations of Odyn's powers, and the Necromantic creations of the Lich King (who was possibly using the existing Vrykul mythology as either a working model or an inspiration to sway the Vrykul to his side). Helya was once the predominant leader of the Val'kyr, a position she loathed because Odyn had basically forced her into it, but on being freed by Loken was then punished by becoming imprisoned in the underworld realm of Helheim as its queen. Helya doesn't have Val'kyr of her own but instead uses the Kvaldir as her agents in the mortal world, and also apparently has a corrupted Constellar (what Harbaron appears to be, although that isn't completely confirmed yet) in her employ.

Eyir is essentially Helya's replacement as leader of the Val'kyr in the Halls of Valor, someone acclimated to the condition from natural birth that wouldn't see it as a burden of duty in the same way Helya did.

[Jokubas]

That definitely seems to be the story as portrayed in Legion, but there are a few ways that contradicts the Chronicle. For instance, the Chronicle describes the val'kyr as always having been undead creatures, which is one of the reasons Helya and others didn't want to do it. Also, it was heavily implied that all of the val'kyr (except the ones who would become the Spirit Healers) were as resentful as Helya, and were with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed away.

Obviously, Legion's lore would supersede the Chronicle's, but that leaves a few unanswered questions.

Eyir is essentially Helya's replacement as leader of the Val'kyr in the Halls of Valor, someone acclimated to the condition from natural birth that wouldn't see it as a burden of duty in the same way Helya did.

I edited this in to my previous post as you were posting, but the dungeon journal for Hyrja calls Eyir a titan watcher.

To make things weirder, Helya's dungeon journal entry seems to imply that she was content with assisting Odyn until Loken corrupted her. This would be consistent with Eyir, a titan watcher, having no problem succeeding her (and would explain why Helya has no val'kyr), but it begs the question as to what really happened with Helya.

[Deleted]

IMO this makes most sense. 1st Odyn made undead Val'kyr, after Helya's betrayl some stayed with Helya and some became Spirit Healers. 2nd Odyn scared that any undead Val'kyr he would create would just be catched by Helya, decided that he will no longer take souls from shadowlands but directly from their bodies when they die so he created Lightborne Val'kyr for that task. and 3rd Lich King just stole all the remaining Undead Val'kyr from Helyas service because he had some power over dwellers of the shadowlands

[Aucald]

I edited this in to my previous post as you were posting, but the dungeon journal for Hyrja calls Eyir a titan watcher.

To make things weirder, Helya's dungeon journal entry seems to imply that she was content with assisting Odyn until Loken corrupted her. This would be consistent with Eyir, a titan watcher, having no problem succeeding her (and would explain why Helya has no val'kyr), but it begs the question as to what really happened with Helya.

It's my understanding that becoming Val'kyr requires a Titanforged being, or any being, to be transformed into a spirit being (e.g. undead, but perhaps not in the Necromantic sense in the case of Odyn's power) so that they can interact with the realm of the dead to retrieve the spirits of dead warriors. This transformation was what Odyn forced on Helya when he made her his first Val'kyr, and like most Titanforged beings she seemed pretty enamored of her Titanic form. Loken came along and nursed her desire for vengeance, and also freed her from her compulsion to follow Odyn's commands. Her act of revenge, locking away the Halls of Valor using the same magic that Highkeeper Ra used to create the Elemental Planes for the Elemental Lords, caused Odyn to do the same to her - sealing her away in Helheim. She then created the Helarjar Kvaldir in mockery of Odyn's Valarjar.

Legion seems to condense her story down to its salient points, glossing over the specifics of what happened in Azeroth's prehistory. The dungeon journal does seem to imply her current form is Loken's corruption, but I reconcile that as Loken's influence being what led her to rebel as she did, and her form as Odyn's punishment for that rebellion.

[Mjolnir84]

The blueish, undead-looking Val'kyr in Northrend and under Sylvanas' employ were created by the Lich King against the will of the Vrykul that the Lich King killed/targeted/raised. Being that he's a being of undeath, they essentially took an undead look.

The golden, Light-looking Val'kyr are the ones that Odyn himself raised. They're raised by choice, by a non-dead/undead Titanic entity.

I think they were describe as undead in Chronicle, even the Odyn ones, because that's sort of what they are: they died, and then their spirits were raised into Val'kyr, the difference being who raised them. Helya does not appear to have Val'kyr of her own, and her own twisted, non-Val'kyr appearance can possibly be attributed to her own hatred and time spent in her own plane of existence, Helheim.

[Jokubas]

I just double-checked the questline for the Warswords of Valajar. The website said that Odyn betrayed and killed Helya, and she went on to steal and corrupt the swords to spite him. However, in the final version of the questline, not even Helya tries to justify what she did. It's implied that she simply betrayed him and wanted to keep building up a list of evil things.

Odyn's dungeon journal has its own subtle changes to the Chronicle's version of him. I'm convinced that the Chronicle version of the tale has been completely retconned. I don't know if this was to make Odyn less of a jerk, or to make Helya less sympathetic, but it's definitely changed.

It appears as if the order of events in Legion's version are:
Odyn was charged with creating an army to fight the Old Gods. He created the angelic val'kyr and appointed Helya their leader. Things were going well, and the val'kyr were building an army of legendary warriors. Eventually, Yogg-Saron manged to corrupt Loken. Loken, in turn, corrupted Helya. Helya abandoned Odyn and the val'kyr and betrayed them by sealing them away in the Halls of Valor.

Odyn appoints Eyir the next val'kyr queen, while Helya mimics the val'kyr through other methods, such as having the kvaldir drag warriors down to her. The Lich King's val'kyr are completely independent. The Spirit Healers are presumably val'kyr who weren't in the Halls of Valor when it was cut off.

[Rafoel]

Why this confused me:
In the Chronicle, the val'kyr are undead. In Legion, they appear to be creatures of the Light.
In the Chronicle, no one wanted to be a val'kyr, and they all had to be forced. In Legion, becoming a val'kyr seems to be a great honor that people must earn.
In the Chronicle, the val'kyr were on Helya's side and with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed. In Legion, Odyn has val'kyr, but it doesn't look like Helya does.
In the Chronicle, Helya was the leader of the val'kyr, even after breaking from Odyn. In Legion, it appears as if Eyir (who wasn't in the Chronicle) is.

This bugs me because Legion doesn't really go into detail about the relationship between these powers. I thought that was because we already had the lore in the Chronicle, but it looks like an almost completely different story to me. Am I missing something?

1) Val'kyr are undead - meaning they died, but are still moving/talking etc. They aren't creatures of Light, not in the way Naaru are, they are just powerful spirits.

2) Cultural thing. Vrykul are told from birth what they all should strive for - Halls of Valor. For them being Val'kyr means eternal glory, joining Odyn in the Halls, basically obtaining the highest possible position. In the past, all they saw was being cursed to eternal service. Both views are correct in some way.

3) Helya has Val'kyr. I'm sure you see some at the end of questline in Helheim.
However, consider this - Helya probably didn't get any new Val'kyr since she sealed off Odyn - who would want to serve her in Hell for eternity? Meanwhile, Odyn is getting new Val'kyr every generation. He most probably has much more Val'kyr than Helya right now.

4) Obviously, Val'kyr in Halls of Valor can't consider Helya their queen. Eyir was probably chosen the queen of Val'kyr later, and Chronicle doesn't cover it.

[Leodok]

(most of what you're about to read is pure speculation)

In the Chronicle, the val'kyr are undead. In Legion, they appear to be creatures of the Light.

Undead creatures of the Light? I think I've seen some spirits manifesting as Light a while ago.

In the Chronicle, no one wanted to be a val'kyr, and they all had to be forced. In Legion, becoming a val'kyr seems to be a great honor that people must earn.

It likely became an honor with time, as the vrykul saw val'kyr doing heroic stuff and saw their importance.

In the Chronicle, the val'kyr were on Helya's side and with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed. In Legion, Odyn has val'kyr, but it doesn't look like Helya does.

Helya does have val'kyr. You can see one in the 7.1 preview video.
I assume Odyn simply made some new ones for himself, or some of them stayed by his side when Helya "betrayed" him.

In the Chronicle, Helya was the leader of the val'kyr, even after breaking from Odyn. In Legion, it appears as if Eyir (who wasn't in the Chronicle) is.

After Helya went away, Odyn likely wanted a new leader for the val'kyr, so he made/empowered Eyir.

It's possible that the piece of the puzzle we are missing is the Lich King. Maybe he stole Helya's Val'kyr.

He made his own val'kyr, maybe he copied Odyns methods or something (just adapting them a bit).
He could still have stolen a few, though.

[Golden Yak]

It's possible that the piece of the puzzle we are missing is the Lich King. Maybe he stole Helya's Val'kyr. Also back then Odyn wanted to turn titanforged into Val'kyr. They were immortal and they were aware they were being used. Now, the vrykul have been indoctrinated for years to seek the Halls of Valor; as mortal creatures due to the Curse of Flesh, they see it as a reward of immortality (which it is)

Re. the Lich King, he transforms Svala Sorrowgrave into a val'kyr, so he may have somehow discovered how to turn mortals into val'kyr at some point and made his own. Possibly he encountered existing val'kyr and maybe learned from them, or 'dissected' them to figure it out. Might have resulted in the darker, wicked val'kyr that served the Scourge.

I guess there's also no inherent reason why an undead being couldn't also be an entity of the Light, depending on how they're turned. I guess technically any spirit that exists in the world is an 'undead' - ghosts count as undead. A pure good ghost of the Light would still be an undead.

[omeomorfismo]

maybe odyn simply use light as necromantic source instead of shadow, fel or arcane. after all in wod we see draenei shadow priest and shadowmoon orcs using shadow to "heal"

[Qualia]

Odyn's dungeon journal has its own subtle changes to the Chronicle's version of him. I'm convinced that the Chronicle version of the tale has been completely retconned. I don't know if this was to make Odyn less of a jerk, or to make Helya less sympathetic, but it's definitely changed.

It appears as if the order of events in Legion's version are:
Odyn was charged with creating an army to fight the Old Gods. He created the angelic val'kyr and appointed Helya their leader. Things were going well, and the val'kyr were building an army of legendary warriors. Eventually, Yogg-Saron manged to corrupt Loken. Loken, in turn, corrupted Helya. Helya abandoned Odyn and the val'kyr and betrayed them by sealing them away in the Halls of Valor.

Odyn dungeon journal actually didn't contradict with or change things in Chronicle. It just skipped the bad parts in related to Odyn. I mean - look at it, nothing was wrong:
- Odyn, a titan keeper, was empowered by the titan Pantheon to lead the titan-forged armies against the Old Gods: correct.
- In the aftermath, he raised the Halls of Valor into the skies, assembling a force of the greatest vrykul champions to defend Azeroth: correct.
- But when Ulduar fell into the clutches of Yogg-Saron, he was betrayed by Loken and cursed by Helya, now trapped within these halls for eternity: correct

It skipped some facts, such as Odyn's reason for assembling the Vrykul's force (because he thought the dragons / non-titanforged beings can't be relied) and what he did to Helya (which was told in the Warswords chain), but it didn't say anything different from Chronicle. You are right that it made Odyn appeared to be less of a jerk - which matches with his current image in-game, but rather than changing Chronicle, twisting the truth would be more correct.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Why this confused me:
In the Chronicle, the val'kyr are undead. In Legion, they appear to be creatures of the Light.

I think it would be safe to assume that what the Val'kyr are depends on who created them.
As an aside, all Val'kyr are technically undead, as are the Valajar (as they're Vrykrul souls that are inhabiting new, construct bodies).

In the Chronicle, no one wanted to be a val'kyr, and they all had to be forced. In Legion, becoming a val'kyr seems to be a great honor that people must earn.

It's not something they particularly want to do, it's something that they feel is their duty to perform.

In the Chronicle, the val'kyr were on Helya's side and with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed. In Legion, Odyn has val'kyr, but it doesn't look like Helya does.

Helya was the leader of the Val'kyr, whose job was to guide the souls of the worthy to the Halls of Valor from the Shadowlands. I would assume that the Val'kyr abandoned Helya once she broke free from Odyn's control.

In the Chronicle, Helya was the leader of the val'kyr, even after breaking from Odyn. In Legion, it appears as if Eyir (who wasn't in the Chronicle) is.

The Val'kyr are loyal to Odyn, and likely abandoned Helya after discovering her treachery.

[Combatbutler]

Helya was the leader of the Val'kyr, whose job was to guide the souls of the worthy to the Halls of Valor from the Shadowlands. I would assume that the Val'kyr abandoned Helya once she broke free from Odyn's control.

Helya wasn't the only one, many rebelled the spirit healers for example are part of these rebel Val'kyr.

The Val'kyr are loyal to Odyn, and likely abandoned Helya after discovering her treachery.

The first Val'kyr were never loyal to Odyn, because they never wanted to be val'kyr, the newer ones who were raised in Odyn's new system on the other hand see it as a great honor.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Helya wasn't the only one, many rebelled the spirit healers for example are part of these rebel Val'kyr.

The first Val'kyr were never loyal to Odyn, because they never wanted to be val'kyr, the newer ones who were raised in Odyn's new system on the other hand see it as a great honor.

Then perhaps the colouration of the Val'kyr - rather, the types of Val'kyr - has less to do with who created them, and more to do with their emotional state. Similar to how the skin of Eredar lords changes colour depending on their mood (src).

[Zandalariprelate]

That definitely seems to be the story as portrayed in Legion, but there are a few ways that contradicts the Chronicle. For instance, the Chronicle describes the val'kyr as always having been undead creatures, which is one of the reasons Helya and others didn't want to do it. Also, it was heavily implied that all of the val'kyr (except the ones who would become the Spirit Healers) were as resentful as Helya, and were with her when the Halls of Valor were sealed away

Maybe Odyn learns to raise val kyrs with the power of the light with the past of years after the betray of heyla to avoid another val kyr go rogue, maybe we learn more about that in the raid of storheim or when they release some world quest with more lore

[WolfRider]

Odyn created the Val'kyr (the Light one) to send them into the Shadowlands and collect worthy souls for his Val'Ajar. He used Helya as the "Prime" Val'kyr, then Loken came to her and asked her help to get rid of Odyn (because Loken was influenced by Yogg'Saron who wanted to take control of Ulduar). Loken freed Helya from Odyn's influence. When she acted against the Prime Keeper (Odyn, because he was the first Titan Keeper), some Val'kyr joined Odyn, some stayed with Helya and some chose to stay neutral (the Spirit guardians that we see when we die).
Odyn made another Prime Val'kyr, Eyir, to create more Val'kyr.
Helya is jealous because she can't make a Prime Val'kyr, so she asks Sylvanas to capture Eyir and force her to obey Helya. In exchange she'll provide Sylvanas enough Val'kyr to allow immortality to the Banshee Queen and the Forsaken. It's a win/win situation, Helya will have more Kvaldir and Sylvanas more Forsaken.

The Lich King took control of Northrend's Val'kyr, because I guess that Odyn's Val'ajar was sent far away by Helya.