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  1. #1

    Getting hammered in mythics, veng DH

    I'm at ilvl 825, been running through heroics without any issues, did mythic black rook last night and felt like I was
    Getting rocked, mainly by trash pulls, not a lot of issues on boss fights. But the group I was running with didn't use any cc the entire run....most of the hear I have is vers/haste/mast.

    Would it be a cc issue, demon spike is up id say at least 90% of the time, what am I missing or is a matter of getting my not so tanky items replaced?

  2. #2
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    Haste is your problem. Mastery and Versatility is the only two stats that matter. Its pure survival. Haste doesnt matter shit, I've got less than 5%, and Its no problem at all. Crit is also a great stat as it gives you Parry.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meanshield View Post
    Haste is your problem. Mastery and Versatility is the only two stats that matter. Its pure survival. Haste doesnt matter shit, I've got less than 5%, and Its no problem at all. Crit is also a great stat as it gives you Parry.
    Think I'm going to trust this guide more than you:
    http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/vengean...-stat-priority

    Crit is the worst stat for survival, aside from the immensely small amount of parry it gives you also need to crit on soul cleave to really gain anything out of it. Haste is great to increase the up-time of your demon spikes, which also happens to give you parry...

    I've tanked all 8 mythic dungeons as vengeance without any problems, went in there with about 815 or some such item level. I'd highly recommend that you make use of your sigil of fear and imprisonment spell, some packs (especially two certain wrathguards up some stairs) deal a lot of damage and until you get used to it you really should make use of your entire toolkit to survive.

    The second last boss for example moves really slowly at all times, the more damage he deals to you the more often he will use his Brutal Haymaker. If the damage becomes too much don't hesitate to use your infernal strike to create distance, be it on a boss or trash pack it can give your healer several seconds to heal you back up as well as refresh your demon spikes.

  4. #4
    Vers. > Mastery>=Haste works well for me. I tend to favor mastery over haste because I'm not 100% sure we can reach those soft caps yet with current gear availability, especially if you have my awful luck.

    I could be wrong, I'm no theorycrafter or fully 850 geared tank or anything, but I do like to try to be as optimal as I can accomplish.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    Think I'm going to trust this guide more than you:
    http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/vengean...-stat-priority

    Crit is the worst stat for survival, aside from the immensely small amount of parry it gives you also need to crit on soul cleave to really gain anything out of it. Haste is great to increase the up-time of your demon spikes, which also happens to give you parry...

    I've tanked all 8 mythic dungeons as vengeance without any problems, went in there with about 815 or some such item level. I'd highly recommend that you make use of your sigil of fear and imprisonment spell, some packs (especially two certain wrathguards up some stairs) deal a lot of damage and until you get used to it you really should make use of your entire toolkit to survive.

    The second last boss for example moves really slowly at all times, the more damage he deals to you the more often he will use his Brutal Haymaker. If the damage becomes too much don't hesitate to use your infernal strike to create distance, be it on a boss or trash pack it can give your healer several seconds to heal you back up as well as refresh your demon spikes.
    Whatever. I'm at 11% Versatility, 44% Mastery and 29% Crit and I can take on pretty much every mythic dungeon boss w/o a healer. Yeah, haste gives you less recharge time between Demon Spikes, but you only need to use them when you take physical damage for an extended period.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Meanshield View Post
    Whatever. I'm at 11% Versatility, 44% Mastery and 29% Crit and I can take on pretty much every mythic dungeon boss w/o a healer. Yeah, haste gives you less recharge time between Demon Spikes, but you only need to use them when you take physical damage for an extended period.
    As can I, doesn't change the fact that crit is nowhere near as good as you claim it to be.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    Think I'm going to trust this guide more than you:
    http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/vengean...-stat-priority

    Crit is the worst stat for survival, aside from the immensely small amount of parry it gives you also need to crit on soul cleave to really gain anything out of it. Haste is great to increase the up-time of your demon spikes, which also happens to give you parry...

    I've tanked all 8 mythic dungeons as vengeance without any problems, went in there with about 815 or some such item level. I'd highly recommend that you make use of your sigil of fear and imprisonment spell, some packs (especially two certain wrathguards up some stairs) deal a lot of damage and until you get used to it you really should make use of your entire toolkit to survive.

    The second last boss for example moves really slowly at all times, the more damage he deals to you the more often he will use his Brutal Haymaker. If the damage becomes too much don't hesitate to use your infernal strike to create distance, be it on a boss or trash pack it can give your healer several seconds to heal you back up as well as refresh your demon spikes.
    Read the actual guide then.

    1.3. Dungeons

    Agility;
    Mastery;
    Critical Strike;
    Versatility;
    Haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerus View Post
    Read the actual guide then.

    1.3. Dungeons

    Agility;
    Mastery;
    Critical Strike;
    Versatility;
    Haste.
    I did read it, the OP is asking for advice in terms of staying alive, not optimizing damage in dungeons, for survivability it's;
    1.1. Survivability

    Agility;
    Versatility;
    Haste >= Mastery;
    Critical Strike.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    As can I, doesn't change the fact that crit is nowhere near as good as you claim it to be.
    Crit along with mastery are the top dps stats. If you die in mythic, it's likely because a trash pack lasted way too long not because you didn't have haste. Haste is pretty bad for dungeons, and will be a viable stat in raiding. Versatility is a shit stat for dungeons as well, but again will have value in raiding.

    Dungeons are all about burst, thus Mastery and Crit being king there. Haste and versatility are good for sustained survival, but you don't need sustained survival in dungeons. You kill trash packs in sub 20 seconds and kill bosses in sub 90 secs.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2016-09-08 at 04:41 AM.

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Crit along with mastery are the top dps stats. If you die in mythic, it's likely because a trash pack lasted way too long not because you didn't have haste. Haste is pretty bad for dungeons, and will be a viable stat in raiding. Versatility is a shit stat for dungeons as well, but again will have value in raiding.

    Dungeons are all about burst, thus Mastery and Crit being king there. Haste and versatility are good for sustained survival, but you don't need sustained survival in dungeons. You kill trash packs in sub 20 seconds and kill bosses in sub 90 secs.
    Might hold true for an organized group prepared for mythic+, not for someone who's obviously struggling as it is entering mythic dungeons.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    I did read it, the OP is asking for advice in terms of staying alive, not optimizing damage in dungeons, for survivability it's;
    That's for dungeons not damage output. The one above it is for damage output.


    If you're going to go by a guide then perhaps you should use the stat weights for the content you are running?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    Might hold true for an organized group prepared for mythic+, not for someone who's obviously struggling as it is entering mythic dungeons.
    It holds true regardless. Fights in dungeons are not raid length, no matter high high you go on mythic+. Short fights mean higher uptime on every CD, and the dps from crit/mastery along with the DS increase from mastery are going to do far more for your survival in any dungeon then haste or versatility could ever hope to. There is a reason it says "dungeon stats" and not "dps stats".

  13. #13
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerus View Post
    That's for dungeons not damage output. The one above it is for damage output.


    If you're going to go by a guide then perhaps you should use the stat weights for the content you are running?
    It's the more time efficient stat weight for an organized group that focuses on bursting the groups down, as such focusing more on damage than survival in order to take less damage on the whole by killing the group faster. It will not however bring you more survival in a group which does not focus on bursting the groups down, which most groups do not (as most groups are not aiming for mythic+ and as such does not make use of their tactics).

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    It's the more time efficient stat weight for an organized group that focuses on bursting the groups down, as such focusing more on damage than survival in order to take less damage on the whole by killing the group faster. It will not however bring you more survival in a group which does not focus on bursting the groups down, which most groups do not (as most groups are not aiming for mythic+ and as such does not make use of their tactics).
    If you're not bursting down mob packs you're doing it wrong. You can literally ding 110, walk into mythics with anyone capable of doing heroic raids(yes you don't even need mythic raiders) and they're aoe fests from 800ilvl on. You seem to think he is feeling squishy because of the stats he is using when in reality it's either because he isn't staggering his CDs during DS down time or he doesn't realize that he is in fact going to take a lot of damage, and can heal the vast majority of that damage back himself.

    If you're trying to prioritize versatility or haste in 5 mans you can go right ahead, but it's not in any shape or form optimal no matter group comp or skill level.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Elivo View Post
    Imythic black rook last night and felt like I was getting rocked, mainly by trash pulls, not a lot of issues on boss fights
    I started mythics at 825 and felt the same. Interestingly enough, black rook and wardens were the ones I struggled with trash.

    Black rook - there is one type of mob that kept giving me grief. After you get past the first boss, some packs have a demon who occasionally does some sort of blade flurry front cone aoe. I was getting hit regardless of my position, even if I was miles away, out of its melee range. Outside that mob type, yes they hit hard but I could cope with.

    Wardens - our group used cc to handle the trash after the 1st mini-boss (the big ones that have naga and illidari). It took some time but I can't imagine tanking them without getting rekt, which makes me wonder how we're going to do mythic+ on a timer.

    If someone has any tips for a DH tank on those trash packs specifically I'd really appreciate it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by beerhug View Post
    I started mythics at 825 and felt the same. Interestingly enough, black rook and wardens were the ones I struggled with trash.

    Black rook - there is one type of mob that kept giving me grief. After you get past the first boss, some packs have a demon who occasionally does some sort of blade flurry front cone aoe. I was getting hit regardless of my position, even if I was miles away, out of its melee range. Outside that mob type, yes they hit hard but I could cope with.

    Wardens - our group used cc to handle the trash after the 1st mini-boss (the big ones that have naga and illidari). It took some time but I can't imagine tanking them without getting rekt, which makes me wonder how we're going to do mythic+ on a timer.

    If someone has any tips for a DH tank on those trash packs specifically I'd really appreciate it.
    For the Rook mob, you need to be behind them. It doesn't matter how far away or out of melee range you are if you stay in front.

    Never found anything particularly tricky in the Warden pulls you mention. Outside of the obvious marking priority targets so dps isn't split, you can use CDs at start of pull and breeze through once 2 are dead.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora Twinblade View Post
    It's the more time efficient stat weight for an organized group that focuses on bursting the groups down, as such focusing more on damage than survival in order to take less damage on the whole by killing the group faster. It will not however bring you more survival in a group which does not focus on bursting the groups down, which most groups do not (as most groups are not aiming for mythic+ and as such does not make use of their tactics).
    Well how do you know? OP asked about dungeons, the answer was given about Dungeons, Icy-Veins says Dungeons, not Dungeons With Friends On Mythic + Difficulty

    On topic-I tanked HoV in unbalanced 805 gear&750 wep on 3rd day of the patch, and it was a very-very slow progression, but not like it was impossible or I died twice every pack. Had not much CC as well(sometimes mage DB for DPS in melee but that's it). Would advice OP to reconsider surviability tactics and talents he is using
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    It forces you to double tap. that's it. It's a great change.
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    It's just so you can say you tapped something twice that day.

  18. #18
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    Could you link your spec? Both abilites and artifact. It's not all about stats... tbh, I don't believe stats matter too much atm.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by locice View Post
    Could you link your spec? Both abilites and artifact. It's not all about stats... tbh, I don't believe stats matter too much atm.
    I could agree with this.
    I'm not really caring much about my stats. Heck I have gems for haste, vesatility and mastery, as well as different enchants (haste/vers on rings for example). I'm not having many problems in mythics even with pulling extra mobs, but I am at 844 ilvl.
    Heck I even soloed mythic Helya in phase 2 (got her down 25mil by myself before she surrendered ).

  20. #20
    Comes down to L2P (no hate) Vengenace is very spikey so you need to be aware of when to pre-emp cd's etc... just read some guides and get a better feel for it. Haven't yet but know a few friends who tank mythics and barely need a healer if ever

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