[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[PizzaSHARK]

Please make it clear with posts like these that it is a pure opinion.
Warriors are the strongest tank right now, that is not up for debate. A lot of people love how it plays, some don't.

It's an internet forum. It goes without saying that everything posted is opinion unless it's dealing with hard facts (which would involve tables and other such things.)

[cyas]

Can't you track a debuff on the target?

Thing is artifact isn't 25% DR on you, it's a demo shout on mobs, which means it's not 100% foolproof (new mobs can come, mobs can leap out of its range as you cast it etc.) and not sure if you can track "is it up on all mobs hitting me" or just target / focus.

No there is no Debuff on the Mob. I understand the points you made about the problems with tracking it. But for me, when tanking one mob (a boss), it would be nice to know, when my 9s of 25%DR are over or are about to be over

[Tarwth]

I'm getting some odd results from the latest simulationcraft build for stat weights looking at TMI and TDPS.

TMI Stat weights TMI Standard Boss T17M:
TMI = 67.4k
Haste = 1.08
Sta = 1.00
Mastery = 0.69
Crit = 0.67
Str = 0.59
Vers = 0.58
Haste > Sta > Mastery ~= Crit > Str ~= Vers

TMI Stat weights Tank Dummy Mythic:
TMI = 61.2k
Str = 2.38
Vers = 2.1
Mastery = 1.98
Cirt = 1.27
Sta = 1.00
Haste = 0.80
Str > Vers ~= Mastery > Crit > Sta ~= Haste

TDPS Stat weights TMI Standard Boss T17M:
TMI = 67.5k
Mastery = 1.77
Vers = 1.41
Crit = 1.25
Haste = 1.04
Str = 1.00
Sta = -0.01
Mastery > Vers > Crit > Haste ~= Str > Sta


TDPS Stat weights Tank Dummy Mythic:
TMI = 67.4k
Mastery = 1.04
Vers = 1.01
Str = 1.00
Crit = 0.71
Haste = 0.43
Sta - 0.05
Mastery ~= Vers ~= Str > Crit > Haste > Sta

For the TMI Standard boss, I can justify why each set of weights is what they are in my head (TPDS: blocks + flat reductions + parry; TMI: AM uptime, HP, blocks/parry), but the order for both just seems to be significantly different from the generally posted Haste > Vers > Mastery > Crit (I've never seen one which showed where strength and stamina fall). Haste is only high for the first TMI, but vers is at the bottom, while for tdps haste is at the bottom (excluding stam, because of course) and vers is beaten by mastery. In both cases, mastery looks to be more valuable than versatility.

For the Tank dummy, haste looks to be trash.

Any thoughts?



Profile (imported used simcraft addon):

Spoiler: 

paladin="Tarwth"
level=110
race=human
region=us
server=sargeras
role=tank
professions=enchanting=723/jewelcrafting=705
talents=2232123
spec=protection
artifact=49:0:0:0:0:1120:1:1121:3:1124:3:1126:3:1128:3:1129:3:1133:1:1135:1:1343:1

head=,id=139693,bonus_id=3385/3384
neck=,id=133633,bonus_id=1727/1808/1492/1813,gem_id=130221
shoulder=,id=135636,enchant_id=5440,bonus_id=3428/1679/1472/1813
back=,id=134406,bonus_id=1727/40/1492/1813
chest=,id=139690,bonus_id=3385/3384
shirt=,id=98543
wrist=,id=139697,bonus_id=3386/3384,gem_id=130217
hands=,id=139692,bonus_id=3386/3384
waist=,id=139095,bonus_id=1727/40/1502/1813
legs=,id=139694,bonus_id=3386/3384
feet=,id=139691,bonus_id=3385/3384
finger1=,id=134530,enchant_id=5426,bonus_id=1727/42/1492/1813
finger2=,id=134493,enchant_id=5426,bonus_id=1727/1492/1813
trinket1=,id=135700,bonus_id=3428/1477/3336
trinket2=,id=136715,bonus_id=1727/1492/1813
main_hand=,id=128867,relic_id=0/0,gem_id=0/0/0/0
off_hand=,id=128866,bonus_id=736,relic_id=1727:1492:1813/1727:1492:1813/1726:1492:3337,gem_id=136771/137543/137379/0

I ran with 10000 iterations for 450s, length varied by 20%, light movement against 1 enemy. Is there a new boss I should be using though?

[szandos]

No there is no Debuff on the Mob. I understand the points you made about the problems with tracking it. But for me, when tanking one mob (a boss), it would be nice to know, when my 9s of 25%DR are over or are about to be over

Macro it with "/dbm timer 9"

[celinamuna]

Can anyone direct me towards or give me accurate stat weights that I can enter into Pawn? The best I've found so far are from noxic which leave a lot to be desired.

( Pawn: v1: "Comb_Pre_raid": Strength=7.4, Stamina=7.94, CritRating=6.9915, HasteRating=8.144, MasteryRating=7.566, Versatility=8.2235, Armor=19.608, Dps=1.7905)

No there is no Debuff on the Mob. I understand the points you made about the problems with tracking it. But for me, when tanking one mob (a boss), it would be nice to know, when my 9s of 25%DR are over or are about to be over

False

I'm getting some odd results from the latest simulationcraft build for stat weights looking at TMI and TDPS. Is there a new boss I should be using though?

The Haste/Vers > Mastery >> Crit is using different boss sim + raid sim.
With undervalued haste (and vers) to some degree, while also looking at multiple rankings rather than just TMI,DTPS,DPS, etc.
It's combined general value.

Furthermore individual stat weights change depending on gear / talents / relics / boss fights.
@Sepelio

With only 3 trait ranks
Tooltip lies, but with > 3 even accounting for Tyr's it pulls ahead on ST.

[Tarwth]

The Haste/Vers > Mastery >> Crit is using different boss sim + raid sim.
With undervalued haste (and vers) to some degree, while also looking at multiple rankings rather than just TMI,DTPS,DPS, etc.
It's combined general value.

Is there a different boss I should be using then? I only saw options for TMI Standard, Fluffy Pillow, Tank Dummy, and one other that I can't recall (at work atm so I can't check) that did not look like an appropriate boss to sim against.

[celinamuna]

Is there a different boss I should be using then? I only saw options for TMI Standard, Fluffy Pillow, Tank Dummy, and one other that I can't recall (at work atm so I can't check) that did not look like an appropriate boss to sim against.

Not really.
I custom code some of the very basic bosses, and planning to start working on custom coding full proper bosses with equivalent tank swaps.

[Deleted]

can someone provide data then, where it shows that haste indeed is the best stat defensively (if you are not specced into seraphim of course)? because according to simcrafts (as shown above) haste isn't that good and just saying "i used my own sims" doesn't really cut it

[Veyloris]

can someone provide data then, where it shows that haste indeed is the best stat defensively (if you are not specced into seraphim of course)? because according to simcrafts (as shown above) haste isn't that good and just saying "i used my own sims" doesn't really cut it

I'm getting some odd results from the latest simulationcraft build for stat weights looking at TMI and TDPS.

TMI Stat weights TMI Standard Boss T17M:
TMI = 67.4k
Haste = 1.08
Sta = 1.00
Mastery = 0.69
Crit = 0.67
Str = 0.59
Vers = 0.58
Haste > Sta > Mastery ~= Crit > Str ~= Vers

TDPS Stat weights TMI Standard Boss T17M:
TMI = 67.5k
Mastery = 1.77
Vers = 1.41
Crit = 1.25
Haste = 1.04
Str = 1.00
Sta = -0.01
Mastery > Vers > Crit > Haste ~= Str > Sta

To me it looks like the argument of Haste being our best stat is substantiated pretty well. TMI is the best number given in those results, and the 17M results are arguably what matter most, and haste performs the best there. Vers seems to be a little weaker than previously given credit since it's our second best stat for TMI, and best for TDPS.

The only thing shaking the status quo here is that mastery seems perform well. I'll probably be tentatively moving a bit more stat into mastery, and seeing how that feels as alternates to my haste/vers pieces.

[Shaktard]

Does haste have any other interaction with prot besides lowering the CDs of our abilities?

[Deleted]

No there is no Debuff on the Mob. I understand the points you made about the problems with tracking it. But for me, when tanking one mob (a boss), it would be nice to know, when my 9s of 25%DR are over or are about to be over

Want a WA that tracks the 9sec uptime on Eye of Tyr? I can link it when I get home, it comes with a duration too.

[celinamuna]

Plus i already said that SimC undervalues haste.

[cyas]

Want a WA that tracks the 9sec uptime on Eye of Tyr? I can link it when I get home, it comes with a duration too.

Yes - Please! Thanks

[Veyloris]

Why does it undervalue haste?

[celinamuna]

Why does it undervalue haste?

I can't make APL that effectively uses LotP/HotP in all boss settings, so some of the things are local compiled depending on bosses. This allows to increase the frequency on low dmg bosses (much better haste value) and lower it on hard hitting bosses (slightly more efficient)

[vokey]

Just got back to prot after leveling as ret (dat ashbringer), got the artifact at 110 so I only have 3k artifact power saved up atm. Has a cookie cutter artifact build been established? Saw something on Icy Veins but I've never been too trusting of it to be honest.

Also, I do not like the HP removal AT ALL. Am I the only one? Still fun to play but I feel like I spend way more time waiting for cds on AM instead of working for it like in MoP/WoD.

[celinamuna]

Just got back to prot after leveling as ret (dat ashbringer), got the artifact at 110 so I only have 3k artifact power saved up atm. Has a cookie cutter artifact build been established? Saw something on Icy Veins but I've never been too trusting of it to be honest.

Also, I do not like the HP removal AT ALL. Am I the only one? Still fun to play but I feel like I spend way more time waiting for cds on AM instead of working for it like in MoP/WoD.

[Ulrik]

This will give you a 9 sec icon after using Eye of Tyr. Keep in mind though that you're debuffing enemies not buffing yourself so an out of range add you get will still be hitting for full.

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[cyas]

This will give you a 9 sec icon after using Eye of Tyr. Keep in mind though that you're debuffing enemies not buffing yourself so an out of range add you get will still be hitting for full.

dWdCfaGlryBkr3MiZuvWCvHA2k6XeCtvqoSeFtv0ZePDkyVODl0(vi)KkXFvjJJe01irdvfudwbnCQ4GKqFMQCms6CkHfsLAPQaAXQklhYdvGNcwMk1Zj1ejbMQsnzcnDPUOQKRQk0LPCDrTrvK2Qkq2mv12vr9rvaojvsttv13frgPkeJvfsJwvQXRqDjvG6wQioTKoVs61IOggr9BOMQCtqIGibrUjK1g6ALbzczTHUgZGmHXU47RTMb1N3ewDX3xBndNSiHSSS69T8t5u1BLeenDPZOsBUlcj7HW5Oi)iue66zBJQEEg6qyrJbzc6IKTTXDgz8JGOPlDgvA7umY8q4CuKFeSOOIrVPXq6szcnQ65ziUjK12Lqr37vhJFeQTjfksgdYeeZOsxXrcliK12L2XMt6MqSizAUzqLGcQNRrB0WdJWTj0vCKnHE1XiyNTytqN)SZwSHSVFDmHRbkc7l4XbdEbaHC0oBXMqxLmrczTDPFJtYLiDtiRTRCS20nHS2UQTjfksgDtq7yZjHxR2OHy)rd3RiciRmbhBodfjJWRvB0qS)OH7veHS2U0o2CgksgDtiRTlnoJeShJ1MUjOFJtYLib9BCsUehGXtrCsrc2zl2egGL(k9OHpG9iOXzKG9yS2eCMLvdrq7yZzOizeETAJgI9hnCVIytaH7sxXrgKj82QEVBgsxsqSQDMLvxfWrguVFER8(jHjUiYnHUmTyZnbP8SRCZMnbTJjWnbDn6nngUztWVi0vCKBcs5zx5MnBczTDjmlAnDtavemUjiLNDLB2SjK12L2XeOBcoND6Y0In3eKYZUYnB2eeMfTMBc6A0BAeoSIpOOcCnWMGy13VkKN9k3eKYZUYnB2eq4PXnbP8SRCZMnBc(yK5HW5O42g3zKrW1yBi)IGD8GSUXshF0JyJj8ves2dHZrXTnUZiJGRX2q(fb74bzDJLo(OhXg7(aiiw1oZYk0fHK1eoyhc6UGAfJEtJbzcsvecJ4hbK5vXX9QJrOkGJe(Mwu8qyrJG7hEfuabbe25ALb5e)QeQXAFjGLCMwBImOsihBu1ZZqCtq7yZzOizmClV4w(MnHVIqYEiCokoapXiUzqLb5ekz4Mb5ekziLb5ekz4Nb5ekztOKBm)iiGLCqMwZpcvrcVwTrdX(JgUxrektN3fgujKuvSFZq6scciSddYj(vj4JrMhcNJIdWtmIBgu5Pkm9PA6ILlu()lVmnvL(NOmLHBEQctFQMUy5cL))YlttvP)jktziLNQW0NQPlwUq5)V8Y0uv6FIYug(zqLnHywAJQEEgsZGkbmQAXU0vCKWb96a3UoqXhiiGWoxJzqoXVkHVIqYEiCok6IVV2AgKztqt4oXDc1e)eoZG6)TkBsa

Thanks. But doesn't work. Or i can't get it to work. I am directly in front of a mob/training dummy. Pressing Eye of Tyr. Can see the debuff on ZPERL but there is no WA icon appearing. :-/

[Deleted]

Yes - Please! Thanks

This WA will Show an icon when Eye of Tyr is up and will have a green duration tint moving down for the duration( too many WA's have duration's with numbers)and will glow if your target have the debuff.
I use a buttonfacade addon called masque addon so it might not look perfect with vanilla UI.

http://pastebin.com/hgSMXmED