Genn Greymane is a war criminal

[Rend Blackhand]

If by smashing a lamp you mean stopping Sylvanas from enslaving the queen if the val'kyr and getting an unending supply of them then yes. And cor what it's worth tjey took out the Forsaken fleet in the process.

Fewer resources to fight the Burning Legion. Genn is blind to the bigger picture.

[Florena]

No. He was told explicitly to engage if an opportunity presented itself. Also the Detheroc stuff doesn't "come into play" later. Mathias Shaw was replaced BEFORE the broken shore. Shaw tells you in the quest text that Detheroc had been telling Anduin lies to stroke up tension between the Horde and Alliance. Before Stormheim begins we are told SI:7 advised Anduin concerning the Forsaken ships in Stormheim.

Its really obvious what happened. Detheroc orchestrated the Broken Shore trap and continued to start a faction war.

Sky Admiral Rogers says: A few weeks ago, SI:7 agents in Kalimdor begain reporting an increased presence of Forsaken warships.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: It seems the new Warchief brought her fleet across the sea, perhaps in a show of power.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Impressive, aren't they? The new guns could bag a wyvern at full speed from three hundred meters. Go ahead, have a look.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: The 7th Legion. The toughest men and women the Alliance have to offer. They, too, have come on direct orders from the king.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: As you may have guessed by now, our mission is to intercept the enemy fleet.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Officially, we are to track them from a safe distance. We may enagage, but only if an opportunity presents itself.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect an opportunity will present itself.
Genn Greymane says: It had better.

Blizzard did a terrible job making all of this apparent if this many people totally missed all these important plot points.

Nope.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ACOJhoZmttY

Maybe it said that in beta at one point now it says 'if the situation demands it.' Then Rogers says 'I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.' And Genn says it better.

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And yes Shaw is replaced pre broken shore but Anduin does not order an attack on the horde and it's not suggested he's going to until well into the rogue campaign.

[Tijuana]

The guy started an entire faction war over the Horde retreating due to their Warchief getting fatally wounded and many of their other heroes getting near lethal wounds, [Thrall, Baine, etc]. Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? Last time I checked GUL'DAN killed Varian. Secondly, how the hell did you know Sylvanas called the retreat?! "I knew it, I knew we couldn't trust her!". It was just a horn blowing. You're blaming something on someone over the death of your who also died on PURPOSE. Sylvanas did not intend to kill him, she wanted to kill YOU. Your idiot son got what he deserved.

Also you start a faction war in the beginning of the biggest legion invasion ever?! You're a fucking idiot Genn Greymane. Please don't even bother making him a raid boss, give him the most pathetic death you can give him.

1. The retreat of the Horde instantly lost the battle. It may have been lost anyway but, it was lost at that moment by that action.
2. Sylvanas was in command of the troops that retreated. That is how you know it was her. That said, even if it wasn't her, Graymane hates her and would have blamed her, yes.
3. Armies use signals to do various things. Clearly the horn blow was known to Greymane as the horde retreat signal.
4. What faction war has been started? You must have seen different cinematics than me.

[WintersLegion]

Okay so let me get this straight.

SI:7 gets attacked and a Dreadlord kidnaps/impersonates Mathias Shaw.
SI:7 and Dreadlord Shaw reports to Anduin and says "Horde are amassing ships in Stormheim. You gotta put a stop to that."
Anduin tells Genn to follow the Horde and attack if there is an opportunity.
Genn attacks the Horde ships.

Gen is a war criminal???? There were a lot of alliance screw ups along the way but Genn making the decision to attack the Horde flagship wasn't one of them. Plus we lucked out on the whole "stopping Sylvanas from enslaving people" thing.

Not quite the orders weren't to attack if there was an opportunity it was to intervene if necessary. And at the beginning of the zone when he attacked the Forsaken fleet it wasn't necessary.

[Florena]

The broken shore was a trap feom the start, I have zero faith things would have turned out differently if the horde had stayed with how many demons were being effortlessly summoned theough the portal. And what happens if you get ose to it...

[Rend Blackhand]

1. The retreat of the Horde instantly lost the battle. It may have been lost anyway but, it was lost at that moment by that action.
2. Sylvanas was in command of the troops that retreated. That is how you know it was her. That said, even if it wasn't her, Graymane hates her and would have blamed her, yes.
3. Armies use signals to do various things. Clearly the horn blow was known to Greymane as the horde retreat signal.
4. What faction war has been started? You must have seen different cinematics than me.

There's a cinematic at the very beginning of Stormheim the first 5 seconds. Cannon fire from the clouds, Genn Greymane and Sky Admiral Rogers attack the Horde simply because they can. Sylvanas is Warchief of the Horde now which means Genn has risked war with the entire Horde, not just the forsaken

[Kraddark]

Nope.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ACOJhoZmttY

Maybe it said that in beta at one point now it says 'if the situation demands it.' Then Rogers says 'I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.' And Genn says it better.

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And yes Shaw is replaced pre broken shore but Anduin does not order an attack on the horde and it's not suggested he's going to until well into the rogue campaign.

Anduin still ordered Greymane to follow the Horde fleet and gave him the authority to order an attack if he deemed it necessary. The Dreadlord led SI:7 is the only reason we fell into the Broken Shore trap and is the only reason Anduin deemed it necessary to track the Horde ships to begin with.

[Florena]

Not quite the orders weren't to attack if there was an opportunity it was to intervene if necessary. And at the beginning of the zone when he attacked the Forsaken fleet it wasn't necessary.

The exact quote is to attack if the situation demands it. Their main mission is the Aegis. There's an important difference between 'if there is an opportunity' and 'if the situation demands it.'

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Anduin still ordered Greymane to follow the Horde fleet and gave him the authority to order an attack if he deemed it necessary. The Dreadlord led SI:7 is the only reason we fell into the Broken Shore trap and is the only reason Anduin deemed it necessary to track the Horde ships to begin with.

Yes we fell into the trap thanks to Detheroc but Shaw has nothing to do with the attack on the Horde. Anduin only said IF NECCISARY which is a far cry from 'if you get the opportunity to' and doesn't require shaw lying to him to explain. He's basically just saying focus on the aegis but of you have to you can engage the horde.'

[Kraddark]

The exact quote is to attack if the situation demands it. Their main mission is the Aegis. There's an important difference between 'if there is an opportunity' and 'if the situation demands it.'

I agree. It was changed between beta and live.

The Alliance made a lot of mistakes leading up to the Broken Shore and after it. We don't know what information Anduin and Greymane were acting on. All we know is that whatever it was it was supplied by a Dreadlord. If what Greymane did makes him a "war criminal" there are a lot of war criminals in Warcraft lore.

[Cirayne24]

I agree. It was changed between beta and live.

The Alliance made a lot of mistakes leading up to the Broken Shore and after it. We don't know what information Anduin and Greymane were acting on. All we know is that whatever it was it was supplied by a Dreadlord. If what Greymane did makes him a "war criminal" there are a lot of war criminals in Warcraft lore.

Attacking military infrastructure doesn't make you a war criminal, attacking a settlement with a bomb against civilians does. Attacking "allies" while dealing with a force that destroys worlds makes you an idiot.

Honestly I thought the scene was great. I like Slyvanas because of her tragic past and her willingness to do anything for her people. Buts she's cold hearted and both Horde and Alliance better hope that her path for her people is in their interest too... otherwise they'll get shot in the back when possible.

[Lesali]

Sylvanas has done nothing wrong.

Sylvanas attacked Gilneas and Southshore with chemical weapons.

[Kraddark]

The exact quote is to attack if the situation demands it. Their main mission is the Aegis. There's an important difference between 'if there is an opportunity' and 'if the situation demands it.'

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Yes we fell into the trap thanks to Detheroc but Shaw has nothing to do with the attack on the Horde. Anduin only said IF NECCISARY which is a far cry from 'if you get the opportunity to' and doesn't require shaw lying to him to explain. He's basically just saying focus on the aegis but of you have to you can engage the horde.'

The SI:7 is the agency that reported the increased presence of the Horde ships in Stormheim. Detheroc (who was spymaster of SI:7 at the time) was the one advising him on it. Unless you assume he decided just to do his job after Broken Shore?

This is basically confirmed when Shaw tells you Detheroc has been lying to Anduin about the Horde.

[Selah]

OP you sound butthurt because Genn screwed Slyvanas in the worst kind of way.

[Traveler Voltin]

Sylvanas attacked Gilneas and Southshore with chemical weapons.

acid bomb.
get it right.

[Kallisto]

"Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? "

Watch the alliance video for Broken Shore. Now, pretend you didn't have any knowledge of why the Horde retreated (since Genn doesn't have that knowledge). What do you see - the Horde turning and walking away (not running, not under attack... we don't see any of that in the Alliance video). So of course it looks like the Horde betrayed the Alliance again. That's WHY that video showed that perspective.

When evaluating fiction you always have to remember what the characters know and what they've seen. Not what you, the reader (or player in this case) know.

Now let's add to this some other knowns from people within the world of warcraft universe.

A) The burning legion plans to kill all life in the universe (Which they themselves gloat about every 5 minutes.)
B) The Horde needs this win as much as you guys do.

With those two additions you can only have one. Just one logical conclusion on why the Horde are leaving. They have come to the realisation that simply put there is no victory to be had here. The horde are not the type to say "Well we could win, save ourselves but let's kill off the alliance and also die in the process." and no chance that the horde with 3 races that were personally screwed over by the legion are fighting the legion just suddenly decide on the sound of a horn to join the legion.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Or maybe because she doesn't want to get pursued by the Alliance...?!

This makes zero sense as a counter to what I said.

How would her appointing a temporary replacement to lead while she is off on her mission either help or hinder her getting pursued by the Alliance?

The Alliance presence in Stormheim when she disappears is limited to crash survivors who have no idea where either they or Sylvanas are. If they have no idea where they are, let alone where she is to begin with BEFORE she disappears or their relation to her location, how does her leaving alone with no support have any impact on Alliance pursuit one way or the other, besides being irresponsible leadership behavior?

I can understand her not wanting to broadcast her mission to the entire world, but even her most trusted advisers and leaders have no idea where she went or what she's doing, and she went alone into an unknown land in an area rife with powerful demons who already drove back a concerted offensive by both the Horde and Alliance. And she's running around that wilderness by herself without anyone else in her government having the slightest clue what's going on. How is that:
A) related to possible Alliance pursuit?
B) proper behavior by someone responsible for leading an entire faction in the middle of a major crisis?

[Gimlix]

The Sylvanas fangasming is real...

Who cares, they are all weak, lame characters anyways. Sylvanas doesn't seem like she's for the Horde at all anyways. And the Alliance VS Horde aspect in Legion is all based on a misunderstanding.. Horrible writing.

But yea, Genn is being hotheaded. It's actually interesting even from a Horde perspective because it's what you'd expect from us, not someone within the Alliance. Simple idea.

You're just stating everything Blizzard wants you to think.. So what's the point of this thread?

What makes them weak/lame? Those are all personal opinions. I love most of WoW lore characters.
Everyone has different taste.

[May90]

@GennGreymane, address these accusations!

[Florena]

The SI:7 is the agency that reported the increased presence of the Horde ships in Stormheim. Detheroc (who was spymaster of SI:7 at the time) was the one advising him on it. Unless you assume he decided just to do his job after Broken Shore?

This is basically confirmed when Shaw tells you Detheroc has been lying to Anduin about the Horde.

Their main mission was the aegis though. That's their primary objective. They were only told to engage if the situation demanded it, not to instigate any sort of attack. Genn and Rogers on their own twisted said orders and attacked because they wanted to.

[jellmoo]

Which laws of war are Greymane guilty of violating? Do the Horde and Alliance even have established laws governing war crimes?