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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    "Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? "

    Watch the alliance video for Broken Shore. Now, pretend you didn't have any knowledge of why the Horde retreated (since Genn doesn't have that knowledge). What do you see - the Horde turning and walking away (not running, not under attack... we don't see any of that in the Alliance video). So of course it looks like the Horde betrayed the Alliance again. That's WHY that video showed that perspective.

    When evaluating fiction you always have to remember what the characters know and what they've seen. Not what you, the reader (or player in this case) know.


    You also need to remember khadgar + we the hero +tons of other NPCs are in open dialogue with both factions and could have easily solved the misunderstanding. Also this is what emissaries and messengers are for. On top of this, both factions are literally present in dalaran in shouting distance, can easily explain other sides story.. Out of all the excuses , oh alliance had no way of knowing what really happened to the horde so first thing they did in the middle of a fucking burning legion invasion is to attack horde is the LOLest excuse. Adding to this, the news of vol'jins death surely reached alliance by now which should indicate why they might have fucking retreated

  2. #162
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    "I knew it, I knew we couldn't trust her!". It was just a horn blowing.
    You would have a point if it wasn't for the fact that they were right. Maybe they knew it was her because only she has the authority to call the retreat of her archers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    You also need to remember khadgar + we the hero +tons of other NPCs are in open dialogue with both factions and could have easily solved the misunderstanding. Also this is what emissaries and messengers are for. On top of this, both factions are literally present in dalaran in shouting distance, can easily explain other sides story.. Out of all the excuses , oh alliance had no way of knowing what really happened to the horde so first thing they did in the middle of a fucking burning legion invasion is to attack horde is the LOLest excuse. Adding to this, the news of vol'jins death surely reached alliance by now which should indicate why they might have fucking retreated
    There is no misunderstanding. The Horde retreated and left the Alliance to die. If there was a misunderstanding, why did Sylvanas never resolve the situation? Wouldn't the first thing for her to do then to seek a dialogue with the Alliance? Well, this is Sylvanas, and you know she doesn't give a shit. She just used the situation to her advantage. Vol'jin died and she knew she could show her "loyalty" to the Horde. It worked out all right. She's warchief now. She used Vol'jin's death as a reason to rally the Horde behind her "Who among you will help me avenge him." She knows how to push their buttons. For her, all these other Horde members, that care about honor, are just buffoons. She played you all like a fiddle. She doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself.

  3. #163
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    There is no misunderstanding. The Horde retreated and left the Alliance to die. If there was a misunderstanding, why did Sylvanas never resolve the situation? Wouldn't the first thing for her to do then to seek a dialogue with the Alliance? Well, this is Sylvanas, and you know she doesn't give a shit. She just used the situation to her advantage. Vol'jin died and she knew she could show her "loyalty" to the Horde. It worked out all right. She's warchief now. She used Vol'jin's death as a reason to rally the Horde behind her "Who among you will help me avenge him." She knows how to push their buttons. For her, all these other Horde members, that care about honor, are just buffoons. She played you all like a fiddle. She doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself.
    Where do you get all this from? as far as I know there is nothing to prove this, except using lack of narrative to fill in all the blanks. Let's not substitute lack of story with fanfic, lore is bad enough as it is.

  4. #164
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneOstrich View Post
    Where do you get all this from? as far as I know there is nothing to prove this, except using lack of narrative to fill in all the blanks. Let's not substitute lack of story with fanfic, lore is bad enough as it is.
    It isn't explicitly said, so this is my interpretation of the events based on the Sylvanas, that we know.

  5. #165
    Deleted
    Ok, just making sure

  6. #166
    My theory is (i have no alliance characters) someone is pushing the alliance for war with the horde (most likely the legion). Yes the Alliance does not know what happened on the broken shore while they were there, but there is no way they did not learn the reason for the horde retreating shortly after (most their leaders dying/badly wounded). Someone is either directly manipulation Anduin towards war or indirectly manipulating him through Greymane.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneOstrich View Post
    Ok, just making sure
    HE went from these are the facts! to oh its just my interpretation of the events pretty quick. waste of time to discuss with him lol

  8. #168
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    HE went from these are the facts! to oh its just my interpretation of the events pretty quick. waste of time to discuss with him lol
    Where did I say all of the things I said were straight up facts?

    Sure they are supported by facts. I would say that Sylvanas being a backstabbing, evil bitch is a fact. It's a fact that she doesn't give a fuck about anyone but herself. But what exactly she thought when Vol'jin died and when she spoke to the Horde, I can only assume based on her character.

  9. #169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    The guy started an entire faction war over the Horde retreating due to their Warchief getting fatally wounded and many of their other heroes getting near lethal wounds, [Thrall, Baine, etc]. Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? Last time I checked GUL'DAN killed Varian. Secondly, how the hell did you know Sylvanas called the retreat?! "I knew it, I knew we couldn't trust her!". It was just a horn blowing. You're blaming something on someone over the death of your who also died on PURPOSE. Sylvanas did not intend to kill him, she wanted to kill YOU. Your idiot son got what he deserved.

    Also you start a faction war in the beginning of the biggest legion invasion ever?! You're a fucking idiot Genn Greymane. Please don't even bother making him a raid boss, give him the most pathetic death you can give him.

    Not sure if troll or not, but here we go:

    Bro, did you even pay attention to the cutscene? The Horde were above on a cliff and the Alliance had no insight of the battle they were having.
    Genn did wrong indeed for jumping to conclusions, but from his point of view, he saw the Horde retreat without any reason.

    Love the RP-spirit and hatred in you tho, +1 for that.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Theres no irony because Sylvanas or anyone in the Horde did not start this faction war bs again. Sylvanas only went to Stormheim to find out about the Val'kyr and the Aegis.
    I'll admit, I've not read quest text in a coons age.
    But didn't Windrunner go there to banish the Valk'yr Goddess to Hellheim so she has complete control and loyalty over the Valk'yr. Because she's scared shitless of death after discovering that her afterlife is the same as Arthas. Just darkness? Or did I mis read that cinematic?

  11. #171
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripitgood View Post
    I'll admit, I've not read quest text in a coons age.
    But didn't Windrunner go there to banish the Valk'yr Goddess to Hellheim so she has complete control and loyalty over the Valk'yr. Because she's scared shitless of death after discovering that her afterlife is the same as Arthas. Just darkness? Or did I mis read that cinematic?
    I didn't do the Horde side of the quests, but as Alliance you see her talking to Helya in Helheim about a deal they made, and then you see her controlling Eyir in that cinematic, telling her to submit and that the Val'kyr are hers. So it does sound like that's the case. Obviously she wants Val'kyr to save her own ass, that's a given.

  12. #172
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    This could have been posted on Tumblr and would have worked just fine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    There is no misunderstanding. The Horde retreated and left the Alliance to die. If there was a misunderstanding, why did Sylvanas never resolve the situation? Wouldn't the first thing for her to do then to seek a dialogue with the Alliance? Well, this is Sylvanas, and you know she doesn't give a shit. She just used the situation to her advantage. Vol'jin died and she knew she could show her "loyalty" to the Horde. It worked out all right. She's warchief now. She used Vol'jin's death as a reason to rally the Horde behind her "Who among you will help me avenge him." She knows how to push their buttons. For her, all these other Horde members, that care about honor, are just buffoons. She played you all like a fiddle. She doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself.
    Sylvanas was ordered to leave by Vol'jin. She did what she was told to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  13. #173
    Banned Highwhale's Avatar
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    I want to admit - even horde players don't know what deal with Helya Sylvanas made. So Horde must say Thanks to Genn because he prevented "new Garrosh".

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Highwhale View Post
    I want to admit - even horde players don't know what deal with Helya Sylvanas made. So Horde must say Thanks to Genn because he prevented "new Garrosh".
    Who knows, considering Kosak is at the helm and likes the forsaken it is doubtful they'd be written into that corner.

    OT

    Oh please almost any leader has committed legit war crimes by now.

  15. #175
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Sylvanas was ordered to leave by Vol'jin. She did what she was told to do.
    "Do not let da Horde die dis day." Is not an order to retreat. You can interpret it as making sure they win the battle. The retreat was her interpretation.

    But even if it was an order, that is not an excuse. The germans said the same thing when they were told to execute the jews.

    "I was ordered to do so, I had no choice."

    And then the people who gave the orders said "I wasn't the one pulled the trigger."

    No one wants to accept responsibility.

    Just like with the Horde.

    Well someone was responsible, so make your pick. Either way, the Horde left the Alliance hanging.
    Last edited by mmoc0d7ec07766; 2016-09-09 at 02:00 PM.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    "Do not let da Horde die dis day." Is not an order to retreat. You can interpret it as making sure they win the battle. The retreat was her interpretation.

    But even if it was an order, that is not an excuse. The germans said the same thing when they were told to execute the jews.

    "I was ordered to do so, I had no choice."
    Yeah a really great idea to stay behind and get slaughtered to the last and then the Alliance is being utterly steamrolled, because Gul'dan had been toying with them the whole time.

    Only a brain damaged buffon would have remained there in that situation, but there was no Orc in charge, but rather a troll.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    "Do not let da Horde die dis day." Is not an order to retreat. You can interpret it as making sure they win the battle. The retreat was her interpretation.

    But even if it was an order, that is not an excuse. The germans said the same thing when they were told to execute the jews.

    "I was ordered to do so, I had no choice."

    And then the people who gave the orders said "I wasn't the one pulled the trigger."

    No one wants to accept responsibility.

    Just like with the Horde.

    Well someone was responsible, so make your pick. Either way, the Horde left the Alliance hanging.
    Wow.. well with that train of thought, it was all the Humans fault this ever happened. If they never trusted Medivh, he would have never brought the Orcs and the Burning Legion here in the first place.

    G-fin-G Humans for ruining everything.
    "Clearly every aspect of one's life, from financial stability to social popularity, to sexual prowess can be boiled down to 4 numbers: One's Arena rating" ~ Xandamere

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    Where did I say all of the things I said were straight up facts?

    Sure they are supported by facts. I would say that Sylvanas being a backstabbing, evil bitch is a fact. It's a fact that she doesn't give a fuck about anyone but herself. But what exactly she thought when Vol'jin died and when she spoke to the Horde, I can only assume based on her character.
    Its ironic that you say that since sylvanas hasn't backstabbed anyone in her entire lore history except for the LK lol. She was brutal sure but backstabbing was never involved. Evil is subjective based on morality and local stance so not gonna argue with that but I'm sure you will present something as fact then backtrack later ill leave it to you.. In fact the only person relevant to the case here as a "Backstabber" is Genn who went after sylvanas for personal reasons and wasted precious alliance lives and resources. Not to mention his original sin of walling his kingdom up when the human kingdoms were in peril and needed help the most.

  19. #179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah a really great idea to stay behind and get slaughtered to the last and then the Alliance is being utterly steamrolled, because Gul'dan had been toying with them the whole time.

    Only a brain damaged buffon would have remained there in that situation, but there was no Orc in charge, but rather a troll.
    You're shifting the goal posts. The question was about whether she was ordered to retreat. She wasn't, it was her decision. Whether staying and fighting would've been a good decision is a different question.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    Its ironic that you say that since sylvanas hasn't backstabbed anyone in her entire lore history
    You have to be joking.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvani View Post
    You're shifting the goal posts. The question was about whether she was ordered to retreat. She wasn't, it was her decision. Whether staying and fighting would've been a good decision is a different question.
    Since staying would have meant certain death of the horde and Vol'jin told her not to let the horde die, it was pretty clear.

    Sylvanas has done enough shifty shit, there is no reason to add imaginary acts to the already pretty long list.

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