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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    You are correct partially. Nemesis for example is the Arena king talent. That being said, I will have to disagree. PvP players have an entirely separate Talent set they can use to further define what they are doing. There is no good reason why Blizzard shouldn't close the gap on the Fel Rush Momo build and non Fel Rush build.
    Other than the fact they really want you to use Fel Rush rotationally as evidenced by the overloaded nature of the ability and the short recharge time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    This is the unfortunate truth. Although I have some hope. DKs got some rotational changes within Wrath. Maybe we will too. Though I doubt it's going to be soon, rather it's likely to be Soon™
    DKs had every ability under the sun when they came out in wrath. That's not really the case with DH. We definitely have a very unique playstyle and class identity with our current ability set.

    I totally disagree with people who think it's bad design choice with them blatantly suggesting DH play a specific way. Pretty much every class has one optimal path to take except for niche situations. This reinforces spec identity in all honesty and makes dps specs easier to balance in the long run.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2016-09-09 at 02:55 PM.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitre27 View Post
    I think you're right.

    Such a failure in design though, what's the point of 3 talent choices in every tier when a set playstyle is still forced on you.
    you can pick a different talent instead of complaining about it. but you dont lose anything by fel rushing on rotation
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  3. #303
    DKs got tons of changes in Wrath. Every single patch, and many hotfixes, DK stat priorities and rotations changed. No joke. They call it the DK roller-coaster for a reason.

    That didn't happen with monks at all, largely to their detriment-- there's a reason why monks are a lower-population class even today. I doubt it will happen with DHs either.

    Seriously, if you don't like rotationally repositioning, don't main a Havoc DH. You are very likely to be unhappy the entire expansion. Pick another class.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    Other than the fact they really want you to use Fel Rush rotationally as evidenced by the overloaded nature of the ability and the short recharge time.
    Right cause abilities have been never over tuned before~ Let me be clear. I am not saying it's is or is not intended. I am simply saying that I find that if it IS intended that they should consider changing it.



    DKs had every ability under the sun when they came out in wrath. That's not really the case with DH. We definitely have a very unique play style and class identity with our current ability set.
    Unique and amazingly narrow. This could be improved upon in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    DKs got tons of changes in Wrath. Every single patch, and many hotfixes, DK stat priorities and rotations changed. No joke. They call it the DK roller-coaster for a reason.

    That didn't happen with monks at all, largely to their detriment-- there's a reason why monks are a lower-population class even today. I doubt it will happen with DHs either.

    Seriously, if you don't like rotationally repositioning, don't main a Havoc DH. You are very likely to be unhappy the entire expansion. Pick another class.
    I love it, no need for me to change now. Though I do feel there should be actual options that are worthwhile.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxidecimal View Post
    Right cause abilities have been never over tuned before~ Let me be clear. I am not saying it's is or is not intended. I am simply saying that I find that if it IS intended that they should consider changing it.



    Unique and amazingly narrow. This could be improved upon in my opinion.
    They had months of alpha and beta to change it. The difference between DKs and monks/DH is that with DK blizz actively listened to everything the community said during beta and that resulted in a horribly OP class rather than going with their original design goals. They've stated this publicly.

  6. #306
    And with Monks they listened to nothing resulting in all three specs being reworked several times since they were created. They haven't owned up to this yet.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    They had months of alpha and beta to change it. The difference between DKs and monks/DH is that with DK blizz actively listened to everything the community said during beta and that resulted in a horribly OP class rather than going with their original design goals. They've stated this publicly.
    Actually, Havoc had a ton of options until close to launch. They overshot the mark nerfing Eye Beam stuff and we're waiting for a balance pass that is admittedly coming soon. Most classes saw problems like this and are experiencing the same issue of kneejerk overnerfs and lack of talent variety pending a tuning pass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  8. #308
    I'm trying to find exactly the changes you're talking about as I wasn't able to actually get in beta and didn't really care about WoW in general again until pre-patch. There are something like 173 pages of the beta thread and I don't really have time to sift through those at work.

    Did DH still use FR basically on CD before the changes?

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    I'm trying to find exactly the changes you're talking about as I wasn't able to actually get in beta and didn't really care about WoW in general again until pre-patch. There are something like 173 pages of the beta thread and I don't really have time to sift through those at work.

    Did DH still use FR basically on CD before the changes?
    Fel Rush was actually used, for awhile, as the primary means of resource generation. They then changed it, many assumed, due to it pushing the offensive dash into the playstyle full time whereas Fel Mastery's intended purpose was to allow Fel Rush to be used in that manner. Otherwise, Fel Mastery is pointless as a talent and they could have merely upped the base damage and put a different talent in its place or kept the old design.

    They then nerfed things like Eye Beam and Demonic since the old Eye Beam build could stay in Meta a pretty ridiculous amount of time while being an AoE god but overshot the mark and response to criticism was along the lines of "still tuning guys hold tight!" but they then significantly slowed down tuning across all specs at that time. They recently made mention of another tuning pass though, and will be inevitable with raids coming soon, mythic+ data to pull from, and needed to fix some of the wide class and talent imbalances atm.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2016-09-09 at 04:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  10. #310
    So realistically FR was always designed to be used rotationally even then? Which kind of makes this thread entirely moot.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2016-09-09 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    So realistically FR was always designed to be used rotationally even then?
    In a sense. The question mark is more of them changing the design of Fel Rush to fit a different role by default, Fel Mastery's current design that makes Fel Rush similar to the pre changed version, and overnerfs to other options for testing purposes. This was all done relatively late into testing and never had follow up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    What authority do you have to declare fel rush on single target an inescapable core feature of the spec? One glance at the talents and you will immediately see that this was clearly not intended and something went wrong somewhere. Don't get me wrong, Blizzard could still intend fel rush on single target to be a small dps increase over no fel rush on single target, but there is no way they intended it to be such a big difference.

    Blizzard has not commented on this yet, so lets be a bit more conservative with our declarations of what is till we know exactly what Blizzard intends us to be doing.
    they said in the dh reveal that fel rush is a dps ability. they then showed us the mobility u can achieve with it. fel rush was designed to be a dps ability first.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    they said in the dh reveal that fel rush is a dps ability. they then showed us the mobility u can achieve with it. fel rush was designed to be a dps ability first.
    Keep in mind that they also radically changed the functionality of Fel Rush towards the later part of the testing phase. The Fel Mastery talent now is how Fel Rush originally was, but more extreme, but was changed at a baseline level to seemingly drop it out of the base gameplay unless opting in.

    It's just a matter of them doing some overnerfs and drastic changes towards the later end of testing but then not following up their changes with any tuning passes as there was little to no tuning done for basically any class after that point. They were waiting to see live data apparently and are planning another tuning pass soon, admittedly, with mythic+ and raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  14. #314
    if you played alpha/beta havoc you know that fel rush was always a core ability. thats why people are making the "ridiculous" analogies, like a fire mage not casting fireball because it has a cast time, or afflic dots not using dots because they want up front damage. not using an important ability because "you dont like it" isnt a viable solution, and fuckin around with the talents to make dh another rogue isnt helping the class. we need fel rush the way it is to stay different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Keep in mind that they also radically changed the functionality of Fel Rush towards the later part of the testing phase. The Fel Mastery talent now is how Fel Rush originally was, but more extreme, but was changed at a baseline level to seemingly drop it out of the base gameplay unless opting in.

    It's just a matter of them doing some overnerfs and drastic changes towards the later end of testing but then not following up their changes with any tuning passes as there was little to no tuning done for basically any class after that point. They were waiting to see live data apparently and are planning another tuning pass soon, admittedly, with mythic+ and raids.
    i predict a small buff to fel eruption and felblade, but they wont nerf their baby. chaos cleave still pulls ahead on strictly 2 target fights and blind fury is decent with the legendary and perfect gear/play. momentum and fel mastery are just so versatile and useful in every scenario

  15. #315
    I would argue that Fel Rush is more akin to a maintenance attack such as Conflag than it is to Fireball, given the changes they made to it later in the testing.

    If they wanted Fel Rush to be the super bread and butter full spec revolves around it ability, they wouldn't have changed it from the old design and made the old design a talented option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  16. #316
    The crux of the problem is that an ability created as a gap closer that allows you to do damage with it has somehow become a main rotational ability. If they decided to throw in a talent for warriors that buffed charge like fel rush, or a monk talent that buffed roll in the same way, you would see people who play those classes saying the same thing.

    Imagine that. Playing a WW monk and having to roll left and right every 6 seconds to keep up a damage buff. One camp would argue that rolling is a core monk mechanic..."they're monks, they tumble, like crouching tiger hidden dragon!". On the other side of the coin, players who do not like having to micro-manage the shit out of damage buffs with extremely short cooldowns WHILE still doing the rest of their rotation would be upset.

    What if warriors had to leap out of melee range and charge back in to get a damage buff? That could easily be as "class fantasy" as anything else considering D2 leap attack barb is iconic.

    A tuning pass for DH would/will hopefully solve this problem. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use fel rush, or that it shouldn't do as much damage. I'm saying that if I want to take another talent, I am able to do so without such a huge "potential" DPS loss.

    It IS also entirely possible that this could all change as we get into raids with set bonuses and different stat allocations on gear, but right now FR/Momo are clearly THE talents to take if you want to be a meter whore. Currently the only reason to spec OUT of that is for increased AoE damage, utility with fel eruption stun, or half-assed bonus AoE from chaos cleave...which should be baked into chaos strike and another COMPETITIVE talent put in its place.

    There was a certain point in the late alpha and early beta where the talent tree wasn't quite so obvious with the must-take talents, but somewhere along the line everything got moved around to make you feel like you have a choice, but you really don't. You would take X talent for single target, Y for AoE, and Z for utility. Now you take X for everything, because Y and Z are so far below it you're just gimping yourself if you don't.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    I would argue that Fel Rush is more akin to a maintenance attack such as Conflag than it is to Fireball, given the changes they made to it later in the testing.

    If they wanted Fel Rush to be the super bread and butter full spec revolves around it ability, they wouldn't have changed it from the old design and made the old design a talented option.
    whatever haha its still an ability you pretty much have to use and use well to be successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsauce View Post
    The crux of the problem is that an ability created as a gap closer that allows you to do damage with it has somehow become a main rotational ability.
    it wasnt created as a gap closer. it was created as a dps ability. it was a builder before demons bite/blades existed.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    whatever haha its still an ability you pretty much have to use and use well to be successful.
    Except you didn't make any mention of my second post. The old style (basically Fel Mastery baseline) made far more sense if that's what they were going for. Instead, they nerfed Fel Rush and made Fel Mastery give Fel Rush the old functionality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Except you didn't make any mention of my second post.
    not going to change anything.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    not going to change anything.
    Except the old style (basically Fel Mastery baseline) made far more sense if that's what they were going for. Instead, they nerfed Fel Rush and made Fel Mastery give Fel Rush the old functionality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

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