[Legion] Brusalk's Destro Guide

[Xorn]

Hooray for math!

Still puzzled as to how Versatility allegedly beats out other stats for other classes/specs, but I guess that's better directed in their forums.

On topic, would one think that the same applies to relic upgrades of like 5 ilevels with a worse trait? I mean, as long as the new trait isn't the Drain Life, Incinerate cast time, or Life Tap traits I'd imagine the level upgrade would beat out the slightly worse trait

[Turturin the Warlock]

Hooray for math!

Still puzzled as to how Versatility allegedly beats out other stats for other classes/specs, but I guess that's better directed in their forums.

On topic, would one think that the same applies to relic upgrades of like 5 ilevels with a worse trait? I mean, as long as the new trait isn't the Drain Life, Incinerate cast time, or Life Tap traits I'd imagine the level upgrade would beat out the slightly worse trait

just posted on this very topic in another thread. see: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42241237

[gahddo]

First, it's not just pets, any damage proc trinkets, GoSac, deadly grace, dimensional rifts (which are technically pets but whatever) don't. That makes up about 30% of destro's ST without counting damage proc trinkets.

Second, that's not how mastery works. The rating conversion to 1% damage is 233.33:1. Dividing tooltip by two is difficult.

Third, mastery has a 24% base value that adds flat DR over versatility.

So, using actual math:

Going from 0 mastery to 1000 mastery increases dps by - 0.7 / 1.12 * ( 1 + (( 0.24 + 0.0857 ) / 2 ) ) + 0.3 = 2.6786%

Going from 0 versatility to 1000 versatility increases dps by - 1 * ( 1 + 0.025 ) = 2.5%

So yes, if you don't have damage proc trinkets mastery is marginally better mathematically, which doesn't resolve the fact that IT'S A FUCKING TERRIBLE STAT in any way shape or form.

Why would I opt in to a 0.174% dps increase that's literally pure RNG?

And before someone points out that on multi-target less damage comes from pets, yup, and mastery value will look better on paper. And I still don't give a shit because PURE FUCKING RNG STAT.

If you want to opt into negligible dps increases you can enjoy rolling 0 mastery on a chaos bolt and wiping because you didn't kill that add you had to kill, I'll be over here with all the versatility in the fucking world before I try to get a single point in mastery.

[Gaidax]

You have the same chance of rolling 100 on Chaos Bolt and making it just in time as well.

And as you said yourself, at absolutely worst case - pure ST - it is 0.174% increase per 1k stat, let's say you have the unlucky choice between having 3k Mastery and 3k Versatility - Mastery will already give 0.5% extra DPS on average in the very worst case and it's only gets better if you can AoE or Cleave, which is the whole bloody point of Destruction to begin with.

On the other hand - Demo exists and for it Mastery is considerably better than in Destruction case, so by preferring Mastery you improve your offspec which really synergies well with Destruction by providing solid ST, which Destruction lacks.

Even mathematically as you showed yourself Mastery>Versatility, your anecdotal "you may wipe because you roll 0 on mastery" is very very weak argument, because you may as well bloody wipe because your raid's Fire Mage/Hunter/Warrior/whatever did not crit at the right moment or your bloody Rancid Maw or 100 other damage proc trinkets did not proc when you were needing it the most.

You can not give a shit as much as you want, but your not giving a shit is based purely on preference.

[Uzkin]

- snip -

Thanks for the actual math.

As pointed out, consistency has value as well. Since mastery and versatility are so close in pure dps, the real versatility is better than this limited random version of it which is our new mastery. It is better to consistently kill all three raid-wiping adds in a fight (even if just barely) than to easily kill one of them, just barely kill the other, and fail to kill the third. It is also better to consistently survive all three big hits you must soak (even if just barely) than to easily survive one, just barely survive the other, and die to the last. (And these scenarios are even worse for mastery if the bad luck happens sooner rather than later.)

The new destruction mastery is horrible. As we of course have been saying since alpha. And even if it was properly tuned it would still *feel* horrible. It was quite a feat for Blizzard to create a secondary stat for destruction that feels even worse than versatility (= generally the least-liked stat) but they accomplished that with ease.

[Deleted]

It was quite a feat for Blizzard to create a secondary stat for destruction that feels even worse than versatility (= generally the least-liked stat) but they accomplished that with ease.

Lul look at rogue statweights^^

[chronia]

Just a question about Artifact traits, i'm up for my 17th point en according to the guides this should go into "Fire from the Sky", however i dont find myself casting Raid of Fire even (maybe i'm missing something, but i feel i do better "aoe" with just Havoc / CB cleave damage and GoSac, then trying to put immolate on 6 targets and throwing a RoF while the mobs die in seconds. Is anyone else noticing this also, or am i just doing something plain wrong, and if so what would that be. As i'm thinking of putting the points in "master of disaster" instead.

[Gaidax]

To be honest, it's a good question. Back like a month ago I'd say Fire from the Sky, but since then we had Incinerate go up from 170% to 210% and on top of that I have this realization that if I need REAL AoE (like in dungeons, for example), then I should pack F&B anyway.

So I, personally, took Master of Disaster and I want to stress - I do not claim it to be the right answer. But there are good reasons to take Fire from the Sky too.

[Felrok]

On a single target, even if you assume pets do 20% of your damage, mastery is 37% more efficient than versatility.

Currently on Simulationcraft, it's showing about 38.6% of our dps deriving from sources not effected by mastery. It's a simulation based on a patchwork fight, so take it with a grain of salt, I just thought I should mention that non mastery damage sources are actually fairly common for us in the first raid tier.

[Kingcopyright]

Do you guys know where i can find a similar list for trinket sims like the one in the demo guide? I have quite a few trinket options now but im unsure which ones i should use.

[Baconeggcheese]

Did more sims correcting personal errors and now I'm pretty consistently getting haste at .85ish and mastery being worst at .65 ish, which is a massive difference from the discord pin still. And that's using a talent setup that favors haste in a patchwerk sim, not really looking at realistic situations.

Also regarding mastery, a lot of early kills are fairly undergeared. You end up killing bosses by first learning the fight and then RNGing into enough dps to kill it when you're killing them this undergeared. While the consistency of vers is nice and I do love me some consistency, it doesn't necessarily help you kill the boss when you need that rng damage spike to kill it on a particular pull. That is something that mastery can do that vers can't. Mastery is also going to be a larger average increase to the spells that matter for actually killing bosses most of the time (Chaosbolt, shadowburn, conflag).

I'm again honestly at that point where I'd be more concerned with ilvl than I would with specific stats. I'd favor haste crit given the option, but the difference doesn't seem to be nearly as big as people are mentioning.

[Xogo]

Does anyone have a list/ranking for all trinkets for destro?

I tired to start a BiS thread. There was a nice list of BiS gear for all slots. But what I realized I really want is a ranking/listing of all the trinkets for Destro and where to get them. I can try and farm the BiS ones, but I do have a few already right now that are not BiS, but Im not sure which are better. Especially compared to the heirloom trinket from WoD.

[Bjarkan]

400 rating = 1% versatility = 1% dmg
117 rating = 1% mastery = 0.4% dmg*

Taking this as base, is really easy to know what is better, versatility had a linear increase tendency, as mastery had a exponencial one (talking one against the other). For the rating needed to achiv 1% of damage with versatility, it can be achiv a increase of 3.41% of damage throught mastery (this is, 400 rating for both stats). For versatility give this much of bonus, is needed something like 1364 of rating in versatility... And, 1364 of rating, in mastery, give us a increase of damage of 11.65%. And this go on and go on like this until we hit DR, and versatility hit it first.

Now, for those how claim about consistency, lets do a simple iteration:

Lets said we cast 10 spell with 3.41% of versatility increase damage, and another 10 spell with 11.65% of mastery damage.

10 * 3.41 = 34.1% of increased damage. This is a consistent damage increase, so it always would be like this.

For the RNG factor of Mastery, lets said each spell have a 1.165% increased base damage, and go up another 1.165% for each succesive cast:

1.165 + 2.33 + 3.495 + 4.66 + 5.825 + 6.99 + 8.155 + 9.32 + 10.485 + 11.65 = 64.045% of increased damage. This increase is random, sure, but statistically is very hard to get a 1.165% bonus for 10% spells (and the same go for 11.65%).

With all this, we see mastery > versatiliry. But i would said, it would depend to of the numbers of spell we can cast. As mastery curve is so big, i thing it would be safe to assume that in short living adds (something that live no more then 5 spells) versatility is better then mastery... Maybe for high ilv where a raid boss could be taking down in 20s of less (said hi iron reaver) versatility would be better then mastery, but for the moment, mastery is clearly better, even with the RNG factor.

[Turturin the Warlock]

First, it's not just pets, any damage proc trinkets, GoSac, deadly grace, dimensional rifts (which are technically pets but whatever) don't. That makes up about 30% of destro's ST without counting damage proc trinkets..

We're talking about single target. GoSac? Deadly grace isnt' affected by versatility either afaik. You have a point on the rifts, I had thought they are affected but I'll believe you if you say not.

Second, that's not how mastery works. The rating conversion to 1% damage is 233.33:1. Dividing tooltip by two is difficult.

Right, and that was included in my calculation. 117 = .4% after I deducted the 20% from pet damage. And only because you felt the need to be snarky, here's some in return....L2read.

Third, mastery has a 24% base value that adds flat DR over versatility.

So, using actual math:

Going from 0 mastery to 1000 mastery increases dps by - 0.7 / 1.12 * ( 1 + (( 0.24 + 0.0857 ) / 2 ) ) + 0.3 = 2.6786%

Going from 0 versatility to 1000 versatility increases dps by - 1 * ( 1 + 0.025 ) = 2.5%

So yes, if you don't have damage proc trinkets mastery is marginally better mathematically, which doesn't resolve the fact that IT'S A FUCKING TERRIBLE STAT in any way shape or form.

Why would I opt in to a 0.174% dps increase that's literally pure RNG? .

C'mon man. You need to put the increase in relative terms if we're going to have a rational discussion. .174% only matters in the context of what its compared to. So using your numbers:

2.6786/2.5 = 7.1% better. You can say you're willing to pay 7% on a stat because of rng but to me that's a premium I don't want to pay.

Most times a raid isn't only relying on warlocks to kill an add. Engineers are the only case I recall recently, and you know what? there was RNG then too with trinket procs, etc. World didn't end.

[Xorn]

Do you guys know where i can find a similar list for trinket sims like the one in the demo guide? I have quite a few trinket options now but im unsure which ones i should use.

Due to the fact that a lot (most) of the trinkets are taken for their procs, and not the static stats on them, I'd imagine a list for Destro would be VERY similar to the Demo list

[Moruff]

This whole discussion of versatility vs mastery is a lot like thinking of stat stick trinkets vs rppm trinkets. The people that prefer versatility, do you all prefer static trinkets because you want to do slightly more dmg all the time? The same argument could be made that a proc trinket could fail you at a crucial time and you could do much less dmg to a raid wiping add. But of course, this has been a conundrum in raiding for quite a while now, and we've all long since accepted taking whatever sims higher and praying for procs, but dealing with poor rng and trying to make it work. Also if your raid is wiping because your chaos bolt did 100k less dmg (which is entirely possible of course), then you could also blame a mage for not getting a pyro crit or any other class for that matter for not getting some kind of proc. There simply is rng in the game, but fights are tuned to be feasible despite that. So failure is usually a result of a deficiency in execution rather than pure luck.

[blackops2008]

I'm needing an advice...

I did see a nihilum warlock using channel demonfire + GOSAC since each hit of channel demonfire has a chance to proc demonic power which is great for aoe trash mobs from mythic dungeons.

I'm wanting to know if in a bossfight i priorize to use channel demonfire over waiting to get shards for chaos bolt to use it with erradication debuff or i should ignore it and use on cooldown.

And also, which is the opening sequence recommended?

I'm using Incinerate > immolate > doomguard > 2x dimensional rift > conflagrate > 3 incinerate > conflagrate > chaos bolt > channel demon fire

[Uzkin]

This whole discussion of versatility vs mastery is a lot like thinking of stat stick trinkets vs rppm trinkets. The people that prefer versatility, do you all prefer static trinkets because you want to do slightly more dmg all the time?

That's a very bad analogy. You can benefit a lot from rppm trinkets with good play whereas there's no way to do the same with destro mastery.

[Turturin the Warlock]

That's a very bad analogy. You can benefit a lot from rppm trinkets with good play whereas there's no way to do the same with destro mastery.

His point was that lack of control of rppm trinket procs during a key damage window (i.e. priority add spawn) was similar in effect to lack of control over legion destro mastery. His analogy is absolutely on point.

[Uzkin]

His point was that lack of control of rppm trinket procs during a key damage window (i.e. priority add spawn) was similar in effect to lack of control over legion destro mastery. His analogy is absolutely on point.

Rppm trinkets don't resemble destro mastery at all because you can react to trinket procs whereas you cannot interact with the mastery at all. The reason many ppl prefer rppm trinkets over stat sticks is specifically in this fact. If a static trinket gives 2% damage increase all the time and an rppm trinket gives 20% damage increase 10% of the time, then the latter is better in skilled hands because you can fit your high-damage abilities within the trinket uptime. Someone who doesn't watch their trinket procs would only get, on average, a 2% damage increase and for him the consistency from the static trinket would be better. But someone who plays correctly would get more out of it, and THIS would be the main reason to choose it. If the proc was instead so weak that, even with perfect play, you would only get that 2% damage increase then everyone in their right mind would choose the passive trinket instead because of its consistency. Or was this his point? That versatility (= 2% static trinket) is indeed objectively better than destro mastery (= 2%-when-played-perfectly rppm trinket)?

The trinket analogy was bad because the main reasons to choose passive vs. rppm trinket are different from choosing versatility vs. destro mastery. Destro mastery only has the downsides of an rppm trinket, not the good ones. Ppl choose rppm trinkets for their good properties, not the bad ones.