Does the Alt-Right event exist? Or just Clinton fiction?

[downnola]

Marxism isn't "synonymous" with anything of the sort. That's your own bias speaking. Marx's utopia was stateless. The Stalinism and such that emerged which represents those "vile ideologies" was a response to and a criticism of Marxism. It wasn't Marxist, itself. It's like claiming that the USA is a monarchy because it was originally colonized by England, which was a monarchy.

I'm not sure if describing Stalinism as a reaction to Marxism is correct. I view it as Marxism warped to the point of incoherence by both Stalin and Russia's culture of Tsarism. Marx viewed Russia as a backward country and certainly would have been shocked that revolution took root there.

[Paranoid Android]

Why?

The civilization that enslaved another is clearly the superior civilization.

Can you even name a country without slaves? Hell Africans are the greatest slavers in existence. It was the British empire that ended slavery in most of the world.

You have made the heroes of history into its villains and the devils into its saints...

Source? [Citation Needed]

Are you including Egypt? Arab slave trade?

Precise evidence on slavery or the political and economic institutions of slavery before contact with the Arab or Atlantic slave trade is not available.

Source: Fage, J.D. (1969). "Slavery and the Slave Trade in the Context of West African History". The Journal of African History

Early European reports of slavery throughout Africa in the 1600s are unreliable because they often conflated various forms of servitude as equal to chattel slavery

Source: Kwokeji, G. Ugo (2011). "Slavery in Non-Islamic West Africa, 1420-1820". In David Eltis and Stanley Engerman. The Cambridge World History of Slavery, Volume II. pp. 81–110

Chattel slavery had been legal and widespread throughout North Africa when the region was controlled by the Roman Empire

Slavery was practiced in diverse ways in the different communities of West Africa prior to European trade.[17] With the development of the trans-Saharan slave trade and the economies of gold in the Western Sahel, a number of the major states became organized around the slave trade, including the Ghana Empire, the Mali Empire, and Songhai Empire.[46] However, other communities in West Africa largely resisted the slave trade. The Mossi Kingdoms tried to take over key sites in the trans-Saharan trade and, when these efforts failed, the Mossi became defenders against slave raiding by the powerful states of the Western Sahel. The Mossi would eventually enter the slave trade in the 1800s with the Atlantic slave trade being the main market.[46] Similarly, Walter Rodney identified no slavery or significant domestic servitude in early European accounts on the Upper Guinea region[8] and I. A. Akinjogbin contends that European accounts reveal that the slave trade was not a major activity along the coast controlled by the Yoruba people and Aja people before Europeans arrived.[47] In a paper read to the Ethnological Society of London in 1866, the vice-roy of Lokoja Mr.T. Valentine Robins, who accompanied the expedition up the River Niger aboard the HMS Investigator in 1864 described slavery in the region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...ote-Nwokeji-18

While it is wikipedia. There are the sources attached to most paragraphs or headings about African Slave Trade and its History.

[Ironhorn]

The alt right exists. Just go on /pol/ on 4chan. It's a mindset.

You do realize Pol is a giant troll thread right?

[downnola]

In the same sense that IRA terrorists were Christians. And John Wayne Gacy was a white man. Those don't speak to anyone else who shares those particular qualities, though, which is the point.

Claiming they're not Muslims forces you into a discussion of who is a true Muslim, which is a losing proposition. Its more accurate to say they base their ideology on a regressive interpretation of the Qur'an (Salafist-Jihadism) that Muslims in general find abhorrent.

I realize you basically said as much, but presenting them as if they just happen to be Muslim is more false that it is correct.

[Sunseeker]

"Ethnic European Christian" is such a broad group as to be meaningless. There's a massive variation of cultures within that group, and most of the people in the US with a European family background have been here so long that they're no longer part of any European ethnicity, but rather a part of whatever ethno-cultural group they happen to live in.

My ancestors were primarily European and Christian. I am neither European nor Christian. I'm an American, and one of the thousands of different cultural types of American. I resent the Alt Right's attempts to lay claim to being the voice for my culture/experience and/or heritage.

On top of all that, I have lots of family members who married people whose ancestors are not at all European, nor Christian. My sister's last name is now Contreras. I'm going on a date tomorrow with an Indian woman. I also personally am 1/8 Native American.

Where do I and my family members fit into your Alt Right's concept of "genetic nation?"

This is exactly how I feel about it. The generic "white American culture" is frankly, so bland and boring I couldn't even name what they want to preserve, guns and apple pie?

[zenkai]

Implying slavers are saints seems rather obvious.

How did he imply that? Was it from a previous post?

[primalmatter]

In the same sense that IRA terrorists were Christians. And John Wayne Gacy was a white man. Those don't speak to anyone else who shares those particular qualities, though, which is the point.

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I wouldn't say the two are comparable, and that it's a false dilemma in the first place. You're trying to make this about which human rights abuse is "better", when the real answer is "none of them, cut that shit out."

Nether are a human rights abuse.

Paying people minimum wage and indentured servitude are both legal.

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Source? [Citation Needed]

Are you including Egypt? Arab slave trade?



Source: Fage, J.D. (1969). "Slavery and the Slave Trade in the Context of West African History". The Journal of African History



Source: Kwokeji, G. Ugo (2011). "Slavery in Non-Islamic West Africa, 1420-1820". In David Eltis and Stanley Engerman. The Cambridge World History of Slavery, Volume II. pp. 81–110





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...ote-Nwokeji-18

While it is wikipedia. There are the sources attached to most paragraphs or headings about African Slave Trade and its History.

Africans were the greatest slave takers and traders in history... I Suggest you read on the subject. Every slave bought by America was sold by a African slave trader...

[Reeve]

How did he imply that? Was it from a previous post?

"The civilization that enslaved another is clearly the superior civilization."

And then "You have made the heroes of history into its villains and the devils into its saints..."

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Africans were the greatest slave takers and traders in history... I Suggest you read on the subject. Every slave bought by America was sold by a African slave trader...

And Europeans were the ones to create the market that turned it into large scale industrial slave taking, and they were the ones to make race the basis of slavery.

[primalmatter]

"The civilization that enslaved another is clearly the superior civilization."

And then "You have made the heroes of history into its villains and the devils into its saints..."

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And Europeans were the ones to create the market that turned it into large scale industrial slave taking, and they were the ones to make race the basis of slavery.

Actually no.

Europeans were the last ones to the slave game. The middle east were the first large scale buyers that are recorded. They did however require that each slave be castrated before being sold.

Like I said Europeans. British if we want to get down it down to one crushed the slave trade. So you can thank them for that but the blame for slavery rests squarely on Africans.They sold their people like it was going out of style.

[Reeve]

Actual no.

Europeans were the last ones to the slave game. The middle east were the first large scale buyers that are recorded. They did however require that each slave be castrated before being sold.

Regardless, it was bad. Bad when the Africans did it, bad when the middle east did it, bad when Europeans did it. We only deal with the effects of European style slavery here in the US, though.

[Endus]

Nether are a human rights abuse.

Paying people minimum wage and indentured servitude are both legal.

Not providing those on minimum wage with enough support for them to live a decent life, is a human rights abuse. That's the government's responsibility.

As for indentured servitude, it's banned internationally under UN treaty regulations and so forth. You're utterly wrong about this; indentured servitude is as "legal" as chattel slavery is.

You're literally trying to argue that human trafficking is totally legit.

[Spectral]

Nationalism is wrong at its core, at its base. Whether communism is wrong at its core is a matter of discussion, but with nationalism it is pretty apparent. In my opinion, communism can't be done right either, because it is self-contradicting ("take everything away from everyone" = "give everything to everyone" is not something that makes much sense), but it is much less apparent than with nationalism.

The quick Wiki definition of nationalism:

Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture or ethnicity that holds that group together. This can be expressed as a belief or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with or becoming attached to one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related concept of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviours that support a state's decisions and actions.[1]

This is less obviously wrong to me than the principle that people with material possessions should have them expropriated and distributed equally.

[Deleted]

I'm not playing the racial realism game. You're ignoring context to try and argue that black people are "inferior", and it's blatantly racist.

Just out of curiosity is it racist because it is wrong, or racist just because regardless of merit?

They're still nation-states. And there's a fair bit of conflict between them.

They are not nation states.
In a nation state, the large majority speak the same language, worship the same god, and come from the same people - And most importantly they think they are one people, and that is not the same thing as citizens of the same country.

That's not what "diversity" means. In the way you're using it, the fact that I'm not you is "diversity", and that's obviously a ridiculous usage.

Diversity is more than skin color yes.

[May90]

Why would pride in your country be inherently wrong? That is the primary dictionary definition of "nationalism."

Well, first, "nationalism" has two different meanings: related to nations, and related to nationalities. I've been talking about the latter. The former (pride in your country) is also pretty silly, IMO, but it isn't necessarily malicious. It is wrong, because believing that your country is somehow special introduces bias and arrogance. To be objective and see the world as it is, you need to acknowledge that your country is just one of many, it is not something to be "proud" of - especially since you aren't the one having built it, so there really is little reason for pride.

[Spectral]

Marxism isn't "synonymous" with anything of the sort. That's your own bias speaking. Marx's utopia was stateless. The Stalinism and such that emerged which represents those "vile ideologies" was a response to and a criticism of Marxism. It wasn't Marxist, itself.

As we've been over ad nauseam, the focus shouldn't be on Stalinism, but on the fact that this happens every damned time. Mao, Pol Pot, take your pick. The glorious revolution doesn't end in stateless utopia, it ends in vicious murder of the propertied and educated.

It's like claiming that the USA is a monarchy because it was originally colonized by England, which was a monarchy.

You're awful at analogies. You should really stop.

[Deleted]

but here is a hint, Marx's communism is stateless. i

Yes but how the fuck do you get there?
Stalin was the most pragmatic and rational person to try it - Trotsky was worse.

[Theodarzna]

Such as? Its not like the US even has a strong political left-wing.

The Lefts refusal to even really deal with or address things happening in Europe such as in Germany on New Years Eve, vis a vis the so-called refugees. The problem is things like that reveal inherent contradictions as to who the Left globally has solidarity with.

[May90]

The quick Wiki definition of nationalism:

This is less obviously wrong to me than the principle that people with material possessions should have them expropriated and distributed equally.

This is not the definition I tend to use, but I think nationalism in this sense is pretty wrong as well. Truly spectacular results happen when multiple nations are working together; being attached to your nation, rather than to the full world of nations, is very limiting. The US historically was basically formed by people rejecting nationalism and leaving their nations in pursue of happiness overseas - that's one of the major reasons it's been the world leader for such a long time.

[Paranoid Android]

Nether are a human rights abuse.

Paying people minimum wage and indentured servitude are both legal.

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Africans were the greatest slave takers and traders in history... I Suggest you read on the subject. Every slave bought by America was sold by a African slave trader...

Another person who cannot handle the truth.

Again I gave you sources. Basically I did your the work for you. Where again "Slave trade was no different than many other countries. Most was same a Europe, as indentured servitude.

Since you can't take facts, you want to make it that Europeans who DEMANDED slaves, thus its people of Africa's fault. Oh btw the Portuguese created the slave trade by bringing slaves to Brazil plantations.

The Portuguese were the first to engage in the New World slave trade in the 16th century. Between 1418 and the 1470s, the Portuguese launched a series of exploratory expeditions that remapped the oceans south of Portugal, charting new territories that one explorer described as "oceans where none have ever sailed before.

Source: .Deborah Gray White, Mia Bay, and Waldo E. Martin, Jr., Freedom on My Mind: A History of African Americans (New York: Bedford/St. Martin’s, 2013), 11

Plain and simple for you. Africans did not ship slaves to the new world.

[Deleted]

Marxism isn't "synonymous" with anything of the sort. That's your own bias speaking. Marx's utopia was stateless.

Yes that was the goal - Like the world spanning Caliphate.

The Stalinism and such that emerged which represents those "vile ideologies" was a response to and a criticism of Marxism. It wasn't Marxist, itself.

It was Stalin trying to get to that stateless utopia, It, just like when its been tried every other time, didn't work.