It's pretty minor to what else Sylvanas has done, but anyone upset about Koltira?

[Ash123]

The second point is that Sylvanas - a dead high elf - is imprisoning another dead elf in an occupied and desecrated human city. Go through the posts above and the posts on the previous page and you will read claims about her character having "legal authority" of doing so. However, nobody talks about the fact that she shouldn't even be in Lordaeron. The only authority she has is the authority that is the result of the zealotry of her blind followers and the sway she holds over them. She holds no other form of authority there.

It is true that Sylvanas was never human. But the fact that Arthas murdered his father and turned all citizens he could reach into mindless undead changed the political map of Lordaeron forever. Before, Lordaeron is a human kingdom ruled by Menethil family. But after Arthas left and Lich King's control over undead weakened, the Lordaeron is reverted back to a lawless land where no one or no organization would put a solid political claim. And its population was also changed from mainly human to a mixture of undead humans, undead elves, etc.

In this political vacuum, Sylvanas rallied the freewill undeads, killed dreadlords and their minions, as well as some remaining living humans. She then proclaimed a founding of a new kingdom of undead over the ruin of Lordaeron, and she was able to hold it and even expand it afterward. Her kingdom was also recognized by the horde, the second largest pan-Azeroth political organization, as well as Argent Crusade, probably the strongest neutral faction on Azeroth.

In all theoretical and practical senses, she had unrepeatable legal authority over the kingdom she built from scratch. And she did have the support of her subjects. If forsaken is going to hold a democratic election, she will still be their leader.

[Frozen Death Knight]

A very common Horde fan phrase you will usually catch when they talk about the Alliance is that the Alliance imprisoned orcs into internment camps and wronged them in doing so. They invaded their world, ravaged their kingdoms, got beaten and then got imprisoned for their actions as would any human, dwarf or elf be for crimes such as the ones the Horde did back in the day. Fast-forward to Sylvanas and all of a sudden its alright to torture prisoners. I am writing this as someone who is really into Doomhammer's Horde, without feeling to urge to deny that they were invaders(you can like a character for being wrong, but that doesn't make that character's wrongdoing right).

The second point is that Sylvanas - a dead high elf - is imprisoning another dead elf in an occupied and desecrated human city. Go through the posts above and the posts on the previous page and you will read claims about her character having "legal authority" of doing so. However, nobody talks about the fact that she shouldn't even be in Lordaeron. The only authority she has is the authority that is the result of the zealotry of her blind followers and the sway she holds over them. She holds no other form of authority there.

She actually went against the prime concept of what the Forsaken are about - undead that have free will. Instead of being the one that offers shelter to those misunderstood and ravaged by the Scourge, she assumes the title of an undead queen and governs lands that were never hers like a monarch. I won't write about how almost everything she did and does is against every reason she became part of the Horde in the first place because that is fairly obvious.

What many do not grasp is that the Forsaken are no longer what they used to be after the Lich King lost sway over them. It has become a tyrant freak society based on zealous fanaticism and the oppression of all those who dare think otherwise, that resorts to tools from the Lich King's arsenal to keep itself afloat.

You pretty much nailed it on the head with the part about the original point of the Forsaken being that they had free will. Sylvanas has had zero qualms with her followers putting her into the position of being worthy of worship, even if it will undermine the entire foundation of the Forsaken people being independent and possessing free will.

Her reign is pretty much the most totalitarian regime the Horde has and would be considered the very antithesis of freedom. If this was real life then Forsaken Lordaeron would have more in common with North Korea more than anything in terms of style of government.

[Magnagarde]

It is true that Sylvanas was never human. But the fact that Arthas murdered his father and turned all citizens he could reach into mindless undead changed the political map of Lordaeron forever. Before, Lordaeron is a human kingdom ruled by Menethil family. But after Arthas left and Lich King's control over undead weakened, the Lordaeron is reverted back to a lawless land where no one or no organization would put a solid political claim. And its population was also changed from mainly human to a mixture of undead humans, undead elves, etc.

In this political vacuum, Sylvanas rallied the freewill undeads, killed dreadlords and their minions, as well as some remaining living humans. She then proclaimed a founding of a new kingdom of undead over the ruin of Lordaeron, and she was able to hold it and even expand it afterward. Her kingdom was also recognized by the horde, the second largest pan-Azeroth political organization, as well as Argent Crusade, probably the strongest neutral faction on Azeroth.

In all theoretical and practical senses, she had unrepeatable legal authority over the kingdom she built from scratch. And she did have the support of her subjects. If forsaken is going to hold a democratic election, she will still be their leader.

That is like saying that Sargeras is right about having authority over hundred of worlds because the biggest and strongest faction out of them all on these worlds - the Burning Legion - accepts his reign.

The majority of the Horde as a faction is constituted of either fel afflicted, demons' experimental and non-Azeroth races, with only two or three of them having claim on Azeroth(Kalimdor and the Broken Isles to be specific); on top of that - if you accept that they're not of Azeroth - they've taken what they've got the same way the Forsaken did for the best part of the territories they control. It is basically those with no ethical or historical authority legitimizing their own kind.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That is like saying that Sargeras is right about having authority over hundred of worlds because the biggest and strongest faction out of them all on these worlds - the Burning Legion - accepts his reign.

The majority of the Horde is a faction consituted of either fel afflicted, demons' experimental and non-Azeroth races, with only two or three of them having claim on Azeroth; on top of that - if you accept that they're not of Azeroth - they've taken what they've got with force. It is basically those with no ethical or historical authority legitimizing their kind.

By your own logic alliance have no right to their own lands because they took it from trolls, the only orginal race to azeroth. Blubbering about land rights is stupid, might equals right to the land In WoW and it's like that with every race.

[Lumineus]

Love how Horde players keep characterizing Koltira's actions as "treason" just because Sylvanas says so. He entreated with the enemy commander and agreed to an extension of the cease-fire, which was well within his power as the field commander. He was then countermanded by Sylvanas who violated truce to seize territory (using bioweapons banned even by Garrosh, no less) in a serious breach of the rules of engagement.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Love how Horde players keep characterizing Koltira's actions as "treason" just because Sylvanas says so. He entreated with the enemy commander and agreed to an extension of the cease-fire, which was well within his power as the field commander. He was then countermanded by Sylvanas who violated truce to seize territory (using bioweapons banned even by Garrosh, no less) in a serious breach of the rules of engagement.

Uh they didn't use the blight to take over andorhol. And koltira proved himself inept and obviously wasn't in power to call a truce if he asked the player to keep quiet. Not to mention the alliance attacked first. Lore, learn it.

[Fayenoor]

This is a medieval fantasy. In Dante's Inferno, treason/betrayal has its own circle of hell and is actually the last circle where the likes of Judas resides.

So, Sylvanas was actually merciful in sparing him.

[Magnagarde]

Love how Horde players keep characterizing Koltira's actions as "treason" just because Sylvanas says so. He entreated with the enemy commander and agreed to an extension of the cease-fire, which was well within his power as the field commander. He was then countermanded by Sylvanas who violated truce to seize territory (using bioweapons banned even by Garrosh, no less) in a serious breach of the rules of engagement.

Free will they said. There goes any form of free will.

Thrall's initial Horde after the battle of Mt. Hyjal is what the Horde needs to change into in terms of honor, loyalties and spiritualism.

- - - Updated - - -

They enslaved them... and their children who had nothing to do with the war.

What else could they do with them? Give their children a kingdom? Make a little Orcistan after repelling a massive onslaught of their invading fathers from their homeworld which they had already destroyed? They've rounded them up and imprisoned them, which was an overly just and mild punishment when compared to what that Horde did.

The orcs were reckless and irrational when concieving children on Azeroth during the invasion in the first place. Their children and females suffered because of the reckless actions of their leaders. Bringing this up and blaming the Alliance of Lordaeron for this is just pointless; it is not the Alliance of Lordaeron that forced the orcs to invade them and to have children which were supposed to grow up in would-be Orcistan built upon human, dwarven and elven ruins.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Free will they said. There goes any form of free will.

Thrall's initial Horde after the battle of Mt. Hyjal is what the Horde needs to change into in terms of honor, loyalties and spiritualism.

Getting punished for fucking up as a commander isn't the removal of free will.

[Mehrunes]

You pretty much nailed it on the head with the part about the original point of the Forsaken being that they had free will. Sylvanas has had zero qualms with her followers putting her into the position of being worthy of worship, even if it will undermine the entire foundation of the Forsaken people being independent and possessing free will.

Her reign is pretty much the most totalitarian regime the Horde has and would be considered the very antithesis of freedom. If this was real life then Forsaken Lordaeron would have more in common with North Korea more than anything in terms of style of government.

So the Forsaken are subject to a totalitarian regime and robbed of their freedom because Sylvanas didn't forbid her people from worshiping whoever they want? Wat? Also, Magnagarde's head-nailing post said nothing about worship. It nailed the problem with free feel solely to Forsaken being ruled by a monarch. Which is lunacy. And if you think Forsaken are any worse in terms of type of government than the rest of the Horde read the Blood Oath. Then again you think they are comparable to North Korea so you're beyond help.

That is like saying that Sargeras is right about having authority over hundred of worlds because the biggest and strongest faction out of them all on these worlds - the Burning Legion - accepts his reign.

Yes, Burning Legion leader has authority over Burning Legion's worlds. What kind of argument is this?

The majority of the Horde as a faction is constituted of either fel afflicted, demons' experimental and non-Azeroth races, with only two or three of them having claim on Azeroth(Kalimdor and the Broken Isles to be specific); on top of that - if you accept that they're not of Azeroth - they've taken what they've got the same way the Forsaken did for the best part of the territories they control. It is basically those with no ethical or historical authority legitimizing their own kind.

And majority of Alliance races are either corrupted alien Titan-forged, cursed corrupted alien Titan-forged or arcane-altered Trolls. Plus as Friendly said, the second part of this paragraph is you defeating your own argument. Also, the idea that a subject of a state that wins control of said state in a civil war has no historical legitimacy kinda needs deliberate ignoring of the part of them being a subject and as such is idiotic and dishonest.

Love how Horde players keep characterizing Koltira's actions as "treason" just because Sylvanas says so. He entreated with the enemy commander and agreed to an extension of the cease-fire, which was well within his power as the field commander. He was then countermanded by Sylvanas who violated truce to seize territory (using bioweapons banned even by Garrosh, no less) in a serious breach of the rules of engagement.

Considering that she was his sovereign at the time what she says is kinda of relevance here. And he wasn't a diplomat, he was within no power to make diplomatic deals with the enemy. He also had strict orders and they somehow didn't include making truces either. Lastly, it was the Alliance who broke the truce. At least try not to lie in the same post as you spin in. Have some decency and moderate the amount of dishonesty in a single post to some reasonable levels. Oh, and what rules of engagement did Sylvanas break, pray tell? And from what dark recess of the universe did you pull Forsaken's or Horde's rules of engagement from?

Free will they said. There goes any form of free will.

Well, since you already think that her being a queen somehow ruins the free will of the Forsaken, in your twisted logic this may make sense. In the real world being punished for wrongdoings does not mean one is devoid of free will.

What else could they do with them? Give their children a kingdom? Make a little Orcistan after repelling a massive onslaught of their invading fathers from their homeworld which they had already destroyed? They've rounded them up and imprisoned them, which was an overly just and mild punishment when compared to what that Horde did.

The orcs were reckless and irrational when concieving children on Azeroth during the invasion in the first place. Their children and females suffered because of the reckless actions of their leaders. Bringing this up and blaming the Alliance of Lordaeron for this is just pointless; it is not the Alliance of Lordaeron that forced the orcs to invade them and to have children which were supposed to grow up in would-be Orcistan built upon human, dwarven and elven ruins.

Move them goalposts some more. You brought internment camps to say how Orcs were imprisoned for their actions and how this was just imprisonment. Their children performed no such actions and it was more than imprisonment. Now you try to dishonestly change the angle and brush these inconveniences aside. You only made your false equivalence between that and Koltira situation even more false.

[Deleted]

we saved him as a personal favor to Thassarian, not because the ebon blade as a whole wanted to break him out

This is pretty much correct. If I had the choice I would of left him there but whatever. Considering all that thass has done from a RP stand point I granted it. I am glad at least they replaced all the guards with slimes, abominations and ghouls. I assume it's this way for the sake of Horde DK's.

Those guards can be bought back and fixed.

[Dellis0991]

Well, if minor treason, no big.

She'd have been perfectly within her rights to have just executed him in the center of Andorhal, so not sure he didn't get a better deal. I think a lot of us are just disappointed that all the initial BDSM subtext for her plans for "fixing" him were just smoke

Oh the images I get from her "fixing" him is quite.....something.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't like Sylvanas but the stuff she did is rather minor than what the alliance and the horde did to each other in the past both had destroyed and razed whole towns and villages to the ground, both sides had prisons of war and did horrible things to them. Koltira got off pretty easy compared to the things the forsaken apothecaries do the poor bastards that the forsaken had taken alive.

[Aquamonkey]

What else could they do with them? Give their children a kingdom? Make a little Orcistan after repelling a massive onslaught of their invading fathers from their homeworld which they had already destroyed? They've rounded them up and imprisoned them, which was an overly just and mild punishment when compared to what that Horde did.

The orcs were reckless and irrational when concieving children on Azeroth during the invasion in the first place. Their children and females suffered because of the reckless actions of their leaders. Bringing this up and blaming the Alliance of Lordaeron for this is just pointless; it is not the Alliance of Lordaeron that forced the orcs to invade them and to have children which were supposed to grow up in would-be Orcistan built upon human, dwarven and elven ruins.

Nice sidestepping the enslavement. It wasn't just imprisonment.

[TheDestinatus]

Nice sidestepping the enslavement. It wasn't just imprisonment.

Woe to the defeated. They should have all been executed being that they were aggressors, demon worshippers and morally bankrupt. Kids, females and males, all executed.

[Lastgope]

Woe to the defeated. They should have all been executed being that they were aggressors, demon worshippers and morally bankrupt. Kids, females and males, all executed.

If this did happen I wonder what the present state of Azeroth would be now. I imagine the world would already be a demon stronghold.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Woe to the defeated. They should have all been executed being that they were aggressors, demon worshippers and morally bankrupt. Kids, females and males, all executed.

You realize the alliance would have crumpled under the legion like paper without the horde right?

[YUPPIE]

You realize the alliance would have crumpled under the legion like paper without the horde right?

How, exactly? What does the Horde ever contribute to. I mean, I am Horde but won't deny they're evil and just cause trouble.

The Wrathgate, Pandaria, Broken Shore, it just goes on and on.

[Friendlyimmolation]

How, exactly? What does the Horde ever contribute to. I mean, I am Horde but won't deny they're evil and just cause trouble.

The Wrathgate, Pandaria, Broken Shore, it just goes on and on.

Horde gave time for Malfurion at hyjal, alliance lost 50 thousand troops to the scourge alone in wotlk, the alliance would have still unleashed the Sha themselves in mop, because emotions , the alliance was the strongest in WoD and still couldn't stop the iron horde alone, the alliance was destroyed at the broken shore WITH the horde there.

[YUPPIE]

Horde gave time for Malfurion at hyjal, alliance lost 50 thousand troops to the scourge alone in wotlk, the alliance would have still unleashed the Sha themselves in mop, because emotions , the alliance was the strongest in WoD and still couldn't stop the iron horde alone, the alliance was destroyed at the broken shore WITH the horde there.

Everything related to Pandaria and the Iron Horde was because of Garrosh though. The Alliance wouldn't have even reached Pandaria if Hellscream didn't decide to wage war, so I dunno what you mean by unleashing Sha.

The Lich King was even originally a product of a mad Orc.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You forget that the Sha was already becoming unleashed, the Zandalari were already on their way, the Sha would have been released regardless. The Lich king would have still happened because Kil'jaeden doesn't have plans that fail when one thing goes wrong