[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Vuagnon]

While leveling, Flash of Light feels quite useless if you have Justicar's Vengeance, which could actually be baseline since all 3 specs can equally benefit from it. Not sure if it's another story in pvp.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I've been a happy man with my woman for 3 years.
That is, while I ignored and denied glaring issues with her.

You are in denial for 8 years.
Do not wake up, friend.
You might not withstand such a hangover.

[Gracin]

Hmm, just got kicked from a random heroic for what I'm assuming was likely low dps on trash. Hadn't even made to the first boss yet.

[Deleted]

They should only be semi-good in those things, because they can change on the fly. That makes them more useful in most raids than any other class, if you need an extra healer or extra tank, the full hybrid will always be there to fill that gap if need be.[/QUOTE]

Now that is a rare gem guys look at it closely and already remember it. The process of creation such a legendary gem is similar to that of a diamond just much more rare since you need the extreme heat someone can get when he argues himself into a corner also you need the immense pressure provided by the sheer amount of unenlightened and the last but most vital ingredient is obviously high quality bullshit.

Please tell me when it was ever a good idea to let a ret switch to tank in full ret gear? Or to holy for the matter? You always had to have the gear to do so. This means it was never on the fly it wasn´t even quick if you hadn´t had 2+ gear sets in your bags.

Yes it's reasonable if you enjoy playing it, bring the player, not the class

You know even blizzard put that concept to rest. They took it behind the barn and executed in with a clean head shot. Very merciful even if was a bit messy. Once they were done they announced that they are OK with the concept of bringing a certain spec for a certain job to a raid. I believe they used a hunter in their statement.

FoL is useless now that we can't have instant casts of it anymore, it just heals too little for too long cast. And yes, I've forgotten WoG because I haven't needed to spec in it. I did ask our healer if I should switch, but he didn't want to, so I'll take our extra burst on stunned trash.

bless the deities! not all hope is lost! he doesn´t count FoL as utility. May the light shine on him and have mercy with his soul

I've been a happy retri for the past 8 years and I've always managed to clear content with my raid team that has never not needed me.
Only time I got pissed was when they took away exorcism 8 hours after the Ulduar patch due to PVP reasons
But for now, I'm happy with the way retri is. A few small changes to make it even better, like being able to buff greater blessings in combat again.

The question arises? when did you clear the content one or 2 expansions later? Sorry that was uncalled for.
I´m glad you are satisfied with ret in it´s current state and I hope you will continue to do so. I even envy you for your raid lead who put you on the rooster all those years even if he could have had the same or more DPS/utility from other classes much easier. And you should invite him over for a keg of bear for letting you go ret in cata.

[Ryuji]

What needs to happen(imo) is that:

1. BoSac needs to return for Ret.
2. Cavalry's basically a requirement for mobility at this point. Long Arm of the Law in some form or a default 30% movement speed increase needs to come back. Hand of Hindrance only does so much in World of Dispellcraft.
3. Judgement needs to, by default, judge every target around the one you hit. Otherwise our AoE is going to forever be pitiful since we are tied to Holy Colossus Smash.

At least those need to happen, especially the third one. Sucks seeing myself barely above the tank sometimes.

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

What needs to happen(imo) is that:

1. BoSac needs to return for Ret.
2. Cavalry's basically a requirement for mobility at this point. Long Arm of the Law in some form or a default 30% movement speed increase needs to come back. Hand of Hindrance only does so much in World of Dispellcraft.
3. Judgement needs to, by default, judge every target around the one you hit. Otherwise our AoE is going to forever be pitiful since we are tied to Holy Colossus Smash.

At least those need to happen, especially the third one. Sucks seeing myself barely above the tank sometimes.

Heres an idea I've been throwing around..just a few things needing to be returned or shifted. Yea..this list is gonna be kind of long

1. Hammer of Wrath - Yes I know everyone and their mother says this, but it was our finisher, our burst, our ranged. It gave ret some form of PUNCH outside of "brb, building combo points on you dot JPG". It gave us something that actually made up popping wings threatening..like a warrior with avatar, or recklessness and such and so on. It WAS that thing that made this cooldown threatening, and even when you'd run and try to kite us, we WERE going to catch you for trying to escape "our retribution".

2. Long Arm / Pursuit - Personally I loved Long Arm, it was so good for a sprint, useful for dodging bad things, gave us ACTUAL mobility outside of a 45 second CD that can be slowed, rooted, and not reliable in most situations to begin with. These two WERE ret's gap closing, our ability to keep up pressure on the target, our ability to not stand in the pretty cleave going to one shot us cause we were out of position on a boss.

3. Blessing of Sacrifice - Now here was REAL utility to a ret. We could martyr ourselves with Sacrifice to save a friendly. It was something unique to ret, and made us actually feel like we had utility that others didn't already bring anyway. BoP, LoH and the like. It was our niche of things that no other had for friendlies. We had a CD for friendlies that hurt us in return and had to be used smart, and as previously said it was unique.

4. Hammer of the Righteous - Okay, this one is a given. ..We're legitimately the only melee class in the game currently that lacks a built-in cleave attack to our basic toolbox. Thats just... Its just stupid. Moving on.

5. Mastery - Okay, or mastery is terrible, poorly designed, practically has no benefit to our attacks, is useless in AoE combat as it only works with judgment and a pack of 10 mobs, 8 laugh at us without a debuff to make us actually register that this stat on our character is actually even a stat, and not just a blank space.
Ontop of this Blizzard specifically changed our mastery for "its boring and uninteresting, not engaging" .....Yet our old mastery that buffed all our attacks is the exact mastery that Balance druids have, and that remains unchanged.

6. Judgment - This just..... Its Cata warrior playstyle 2.0, literally being Judgment of Colossal Smash. We put it up, hit all the pretty buttons and hope we squeeze in enough during that time frame. Its literally point for point the exact same thing removed for being "clunky and unfun to play". So if its going to stay what it is, it M-U-S-T be turned from a debuff on target to a buff upon the paladin. This instantly solves the AoE issue for us, target swapping in PvE and PvP that has us choked to actually do damage to this new target til judgment is up. Easy fix, Blizz, stop breathing from the mouth.

7. Exorcism - This one..if its gone, so be it..but I mean come the hell on, an xpac full of demonic enemies and this fantasy heavy, fitting ability to use against demons, as it was against undead in Wrath when it auto-crit these targets. Why remove it now when it has it's chance to shine and truly make sense toward the paladin fantasy aspect?

8. Emancipation - Simple here. Me no like getting kited, pst way to not use freedom and have it spell stolen or purged instantly. Kthx.

9. Shield of Veng / Divine Protection - Personally I feel shield is too weak and simple to see, purge, spellsteal off us with no repercussions for having done so. I'd rather see Divine Prot returned to us in it's 20% Physical/20% Spell reduction that glyphing it used to give. Make is something defensive in PvE and PvP nomatter what you encounter. ..That and it doesn't do such little reduction like Shield does with it's poor 300k absorb that in current times is hardly 1/4th of any boss mechanic, or 1/3rd of most player heavy hits, then its gone in a flash.

10. Blessings - Just remove them already, or make them once again be something raid wide, and can be used in combat. THAT aspect has to be the dumbest thing ever right there. But yes, make these Blessings actually impactful on the group as a whole, or if that won't be done..make them be something of worth outside of throwing out 3 mights and calling it a day.

11.Seal System - This is just a personal thing..I actually liked the seal system and seal dancing for damage. It made me feel like more than just a blue rage bar Arms warrior. It was unique, special to us and something you actually had to be good with to make real use.

12. Lay of Hands / Selfless Healer - Just..please, make it be back as a 5min CD. Thats all we ask. If anything, return this reduction to LoH rolled into a talent choice. Make the "Selfless Healer" talent return the reduction to Lay of Hands, aswell as return the Flash of Light increase of healing and lowered cast time, but shift them if anything from using judgment to power FoL to having Crusader Strike do so. Though with how readily available CS is, make the healing addition to FoL a little lower, maybe 1/3rd more healing so its like a..250k-350k heal at best with an instant cast after 3 CS.

13. Holy Power - Okay..this is easily said. If we are going to be a plate rogue, our finishers MUST actually do damage. This being a 840 ret, as I am, hitting TV on a judged target and only seeing 210-250k for a 3 GCD building finisher.... I just don't know what to say. Holy Power was just removed from Holy and Protection for being a poorly designed resource system, yet for some magical reason ret gets to keep it, and ontop of this, go figure when they do this to us, we're already in a miserable state of things that they show little care or intention to fix.

\

All this wonderment aside..they've really messed up this time, last 3, and now a 4th xpac ret gets to be terrible right off the gate and get another "redesigning" to how it is, what it is, how it plays. This time worse than ever. They told us what they wanted to make ret, then did little more than take rogue and warrior, smash them together and throw them in our lap with every special playstyle aspect of both these classes entirely gone and said, "here you go, you're a hybrid so you get to have druids laugh at you and we gave you Ashbringer, deal with it, lulz"

- - - Updated - - -

Now one last thing ontop all I just posted there. ....Anyone find it funny theres a like 15 pin-point dedication on front page to warlocks, yet we as rets had a 145 page long, 3100+ post long beta feedback topic for Legion that in 5, nearly 6 months got not a single blue post in it, at all, period..besides one post of "this topic reached it's max number of replies, we fixed that".

I am at a loss for words.

[justVT]

This and so much more.

I know plenty has been said about HoW being removed but I still don't see the sense in it. We got a cool Judgment animation ( I dig it at least) but I didn't see the reason to remove what was essentially our ranged execute. We can talk about class fantasy all we want, but in the end I think it was unnecessary. HoW - You will be missed, and Ret hurts my heart a bit to play.

[idpsutank]

Anyone start putting a BiS list together for raids? I was thinking about compiling a list and posting it, but not sure I can.

[Taeldorian]

I dont mean to start anything, and our issues arent as bad as warlocks, but holy shit they have so much attention.

Look at this- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...its-our-fault/

In there, Ornyx talks about how they failed to communicate with the warlock community a few times, how they are going to fix warlocks and such. Maybe we didnt do a good job like they did since they put all of their constructive feedback into one place whereas our threads are filled with *lul rip ret* and *rerolling lol* which as Ion said makes them not read it. Im just curious about it, dont get riled up over this though.

[DrMcNinja]

I dont mean to start anything, and our issues arent as bad as warlocks, but holy shit they have so much attention.

Look at this- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...its-our-fault/

In there, Ornyx talks about how they failed to communicate with the warlock community a few times, how they are going to fix warlocks and such. Maybe we didnt do a good job like they did since they put all of their constructive feedback into one place whereas our threads are filled with *lul rip ret* and *rerolling lol* which as Ion said makes them not read it. Im just curious about it, dont get riled up over this though.

I've been following the forums since beta, but I have seen plenty of constructive post regarding our concerns that still haven't been addressed.

[Taeldorian]

I've been following the forums since beta, but I have seen plenty of constructive post regarding our concerns that still haven't been addressed.

I know, but the warlock community took all of theirs and made a forum specifically for it, without trash comments like that. At least when it first started. Seems like that worked for them.

[Snegovik]

I dont mean to start anything, and our issues arent as bad as warlocks, but holy shit they have so much attention.

Look at this- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...its-our-fault/

In there, Ornyx talks about how they failed to communicate with the warlock community a few times, how they are going to fix warlocks and such. Maybe we didnt do a good job like they did since they put all of their constructive feedback into one place whereas our threads are filled with *lul rip ret* and *rerolling lol* which as Ion said makes them not read it. Im just curious about it, dont get riled up over this though.

But to be fair, locks now are soo garbage and unplayable :P i don't even go below 90%hp when facing them; hence, it is justified to an extent that blizzard is fuzzing around locks. but ya i do agree that blizzard needs fix ret as well :P

[Taeldorian]

But to be fair, locks now are soo garbage and unplayable :P i don't even go below 90%hp when facing them; hence, it is justified to an extent that blizzard is fuzzing around locks. but ya i do agree that blizzard needs fix ret as well :P

Yeah that's true.

As I said, not trying to start anything and it's obvious warlocks were in need of help. They didn't get too much though in all honesty. Either way I mean I do fine as ret in regards to pve, I just think there's some things they could've fixed. But then again they did fix a decent amount like mobility and such.

[Snegovik]

Yeah that's true.

As I said, not trying to start anything and it's obvious warlocks were in need of help. They didn't get too much though in all honesty. Either way I mean I do fine as ret in regards to pve, I just think there's some things they could've fixed. But then again they did fix a decent amount like mobility and such.

Yes i know what you meant and i 100% agree with you, just a minor twick to ret's mobility or speed buff from a judgement or immunity of snares while using Holy pony or making judgement a self buff even 1 of those small twicks would def make Ret more enjoyable @ playing.

P.S. I hope i am wrong, but i am almost possessive Rets will receive a nerf/tuning in our ST dmg either through core ability numbers or PvP-templates, call it a hunch but i get this feeling...even though i hope i am dead wrong

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Here...that comment I made earlier about the beta feedback forum post. ..Have a look for yourselves guys. Click the blue jump button twice. I bet you theres only one jump to that "we're making post longer here" blue. Enjoy 146 pages and not a single reply from Blizzard to anything.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743696321

Also, on the ret judgment animation. ...Why the holy fuck does judgment now have an through air travel time? Half our animations are terrible..like TV/JV, and judgment. Judgment is a hammer toss slap in the face that looks like a golden form of HoW that goes slower through the air rather than being something we can use nomatter which way we face like old judgment used to..yet caster, boomkin and the like can all be kiting you and still apply dots and attacks to you.

JV and TV should have been the animation of crusader strike, which looks MUCH more violent with this sweeping, jumping upward slash, if not just returned to the golden hammer and weapon smash down onto our enemy with that satisfying "wah-chunk!" sound it had. But nope, both finishers we spin like a pretty pretty princess with some odd backhanded smack of our weapon.

Divine Storm, Concecration, Blade, Hammer of justice all have the same "sword in the air, ah-ha!" animation of our character thats REALLY underwhelming.

So we have 5 animations total to 9 abilities. [1] for 2 finishers the same, [1] for 4 attacks the same. [3] that are unique being CS and Ashes, and our rehashed hammer toss judgment.

[Ryuji]

Here...that comment I made earlier about the beta feedback forum post. ..Have a look for yourselves guys. Click the blue jump button twice. I bet you theres only one jump to that "we're making post longer here" blue. Enjoy 146 pages and not a single reply from Blizzard to anything.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20743696321

Also, on the ret judgment animation. ...Why the holy fuck does judgment now have an through air travel time? Half our animations are terrible..like TV/JV, and judgment. Judgment is a hammer toss slap in the face that looks like a golden form of HoW that goes slower through the air rather than being something we can use nomatter which way we face like old judgment used to..yet caster, boomkin and the like can all be kiting you and still apply dots and attacks to you.

JV and TV should have been the animation of crusader strike, which looks MUCH more violent with this sweeping, jumping upward slash, if not just returned to the golden hammer and weapon smash down onto our enemy with that satisfying "wah-chunk!" sound it had. But nope, both finishers we spin like a pretty pretty princess with some odd backhanded smack of our weapon.

Divine Storm, Concecration, Blade, Hammer of justice all have the same "sword in the air, ah-ha!" animation of our character thats REALLY underwhelming.

So we have 5 animations total to 9 abilities. [1] for 2 finishers the same, [1] for 4 attacks the same. [3] that are unique being CS and Ashes, and our rehashed hammer toss judgment.

Fun fact, the judgement hammer we throw when casting it is just a holy-fire Doomhammer but with only one side for the hammer head:

[Morally Grey Storm]

I dont mean to start anything, and our issues arent as bad as warlocks, but holy shit they have so much attention.

Look at this- http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...its-our-fault/

In there, Ornyx talks about how they failed to communicate with the warlock community a few times, how they are going to fix warlocks and such. Maybe we didnt do a good job like they did since they put all of their constructive feedback into one place whereas our threads are filled with *lul rip ret* and *rerolling lol* which as Ion said makes them not read it. Im just curious about it, dont get riled up over this though.

Amount of whining and frustration should not "make them not read it".

They either sift through ALL the feedback while simultaniously finding the reason which causes frustration amongst the most played spec in the game, or show themselves for what they truly are - shitty devs who don't care about that spec.

Just imagine: Ret is one(if not the)the most played specs, there is a great deal of frustration, yet devs instead of fixing (or at least trying to find) reasons for frustration, throw their collective paws in the air with a petty fit" wah we won't read!".

Is this top development?
Is this the kind of treatment you are willing to be given?

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

In other news, Arator the Redemer, my follower body guard has a leap like/teleport attack. My class fantasy has class dreams.

[MasterOfNone]

sorry if been asked, but does ret seem to be under performing this expansion comparatively speaking to other classes at 110 with equivalent gear?
im really struggling to keep above 110k dps with what i feel like is a good rotation.

[Vanderhuge]

sorry if been asked, but does ret seem to be under performing this expansion comparatively speaking to other classes at 110 with equivalent gear?
im really struggling to keep above 110k dps with what i feel like is a good rotation.

Don't compare yourself to Outlaw, Havoc, Fire Mage, etc. Most classes are extreme outliers and will be brought down when raid tuning happens. Ret's probably where they want most pre-raid classes for single target and needs some AoE love. Until then, keep the chin up and keep filling out those artifact talents. Going the long way to Ashes to Ashes makes a massive difference, mainly due to Wrath of the Ashbringer.