[Guardian] 7.2.5 Legion Guardian Guide by Pumps

[Selerian]

What's the deal threat-wise? I'm getting a feel there's an issue compared to other tanks.

[Lysozyme]

What I am saying is that once you have even heroic dungeon gear, vers is better than mastery. The difference is very small though - but the better your gear is, and the more vers or mastery you have, the bigger the difference.

[Raklar]

Lysozyme, thank you for the great breakdown of vers and mast.
I am curious, what actual parts of our healing are effected by versatility:
FR is based off dmg taken, Ysera's Gift is based of max HP, leech is based off dmg done and Nature's Guardian applies to healing received. Do we know which of these gain the versatility multiplier, or do they all?
I assume NG isn't double dipping from vers on self heals, and I also assume that Ysera's Gift does not gain a benefit from vers. Leech obviously benefits from the dmg part of vers, but I am not sure if it gets a secondary increase from the healing portion.
The most important question is obviously about FR, as this makes up the biggest part of our healing. I know that the base value of FR is actually lowered slightly by vers (less dmg), but it would more than make up for the difference if it benefited from the healing portion of vers, providing a greater net healing (as a percentage of health) as a comparable amount of mastery.
However, if FR does not benefit from the healing multiplier of vers it would fall behind mastery in terms what percent of our health we are able to recover from a hit by using FR.

[Deleted]

After I did some research it seems 90% of the end game gear is concentrated around mastery for druids. So even if you want to go for versatility items will simply be of lower item level value.

[Pumpsm8]

This post will be purely about survivability. All considerations relating to damage done will be completely ignored.

TL;DR: Versatility is better than Mastery

Some solid work man, unfortunately for us barely any of the raid gear has vers but at least we have enchants/gems. Speaking of gems i think they just got hotfix nerfed down to 100/150 from 150/250.

[Bearygood]

Right so I have a question regarding Bears health pool compared to other tanks

currently I'm 845 and I have 3.26m health in bear form with 15.76% mastery

Our warrior has 3m and is ilvl 848

Our DK is 840 and is at 3.4m

Why do I feel like my bears health is extremely low? Like isn't that the whole point. The DK is lower geared and still has more.

[Kujako]

Why do I feel like my bears health is extremely low?

Because our gear lacks mastery?

[Nevcairiel]

Because our gear lacks mastery?

You can get mastery on every slot pretty much, and still only be at 17-18% mastery, so the difference isn't that big.
I'm at 848 with 17% mastery and 3.4m life.

One possibility is that your comparison tanks are wearing a stamina trinket, and you aren't, which would quite taint the comparison.

[Bearygood]

You can get mastery on every slot pretty much, and still only be at 17-18% mastery, so the difference isn't that big.
I'm at 848 with 17% mastery and 3.4m life.

One possibility is that your comparison tanks are wearing a stamina trinket, and you aren't, which would quite taint the comparison.

Neither are using stamina trinkets

It just felt like bears should be at least moderately ahead in that regard

[jayg2772]

which enchant is everyone going with for neck. how good is the armor one compared to the haste or mastery

[Deleted]

Neither are using stamina trinkets

It just felt like bears should be at least moderately ahead in that regard

Mate I assure you that with equal gear bear tanks have at least 15%-20% more health than DKs/Warriors and close to 25%-30% more than Paladins,Monks,Dhs who have less stamina. This gap is only going to grow as mastery on bear gear is going to further increase and easily reach 25%-30% in raid gear.

Proof; Here is a 843 item level Blood DK :

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hacabau/simple


He has 2.7 million hp


Here is 843 item level Druid :

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Jurman/simple

He has 2.0 million hp in normal form and 3.3kk in bear.

Warrior can have 3.0 million with current gear only if he has a stamina trinket like this one:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...as/Sqnk/simple

Bear in mind that if a druid puts a stamina trinket this puts a druids health at 3.4 million. All in all I would say only DKs can get close to a druid in hp but never have more because of mastery. As mastery increases the health difference will increase too.


To ABSOLUTELY PROVE MY POINT I took 3 characters in a character simulator and gave them equal item level gear. So they have equal item level gear and DK, warrior and Druid have their FULL ARTIFACTS researched. I decided to take item level 865 (raid level) because this is where we are soon gonna be. Even though the difference in health is obvious as I said again it will becomne ever greater with 905+ item level gear when druids reach 25%-30% hp increase. Here are the stats for item level 865 of all tanks with highest health.

Druid :

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run

Stats: Hp : 5484311 , Armor : 6984, Versatility : 7.76%

Warrior :

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run

Stats : HP : 4277700, Armor : 7314 , Versa : 13%

DK:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run

Stats : HP 4352076 , ARmor : 5327, Versa : 13.69%



In conclusion : The druid has 28% more hp than the warrior and 25% more than the DK. (This number will only grow higher with better gear). Their armor is almost the same.
Bear in mind that druids have 10% permament damage reduction from thick hide too.


Conclusion : Druids are the tanks with at least 30-35% more Effective health than others. Combine this with 100% uptime of iron fur and you have the most stable tank of all. !

PS: Sorry the stats dont show up in the simulator but they are accurate I assure you. You can check it out by yourself and build chars using the emulator.

[Rioo]

I've noticed that the CC immunity from EotN don't apply to a lot of things in PvE, like fears. What does it counter really?

[Lysozyme]

@Shenrais @djambalaz Warriors and DKs both have health buffs as well - Warriors use the talent Indomitable which is +25%, and DKs have a talent that gives them extra max HP per stack of Bone Shield. Both also have cooldowns which increase their max HP; the DK one is up for a very high percentage of the fight.
@Raklar Frenzied Regeneration is affected by both Versatility and Mastery. Ysera's Gift is affected by Mastery but not Versatility.. I am fairly sure that Leech is affected by both Versatility and Mastery, which means it does 'double dip' from Versatility in a sense - but a stat double dipping from another stat isn't a problem; abilities double dipping from a stat can be, though. The legendary which gives you an extra, separate heal when you use FR is affected by Mastery but not Versatility.

Neither Ysera's Gift nor the legendary item I mentioned 'double dip' from Mastery; they only benefit from it once. I believe technically speaking, Ysera's Gift doesn't trigger Nature's Guardian (but uses 'max HP after mastery'); whereas the legendary item uses 'max HP before mastery' but does trigger Nature's Guardian - there's no actual difference between the two formulations at all, though.

[exochaft]

I've noticed that the CC immunity from EotN don't apply to a lot of things in PvE, like fears. What does it counter really?

It doesn't counter anything, as it provides no CC immunity. I asked around this community last week concerning this, and all I got was crickets.

Anyone know if this behaviour is intended and is just a tooltip error from a previous beta build? Or is the immunity supposed to be there and just doesn't work?

Found a few more bugs out there in the world, such as Swipe/Thrash not hitting mobs occasionally at slightly different elevations or if our char model is slanted downwards a little (only way I was able to recreate it somewhat, not very consistent). Pulled an elite with 9mil HP once and it took forever to kill since Swipe/Thrash weren't hitting it until I reset combat.

A more non-Guardian-specific (and slightly entertaining) bug is our Dreamwalk ability porting us to previous places we used the spell. Found myself in the middle of a mythic Black Rook Hold instance after using the ability while in our Class Hall... no druids were harmed, at least.

[Sar-]

Isn't that how Dreamwalk works? Takes you to the DG, use it again and it takes you back where you were?

Same way the Moonglade TP functions.

[Selerian]

What's the deal threat-wise? I'm getting a feel there's an issue compared to other tanks.

Shameless bump

[Iry]

Shameless bump

Speaking anecdotally, we seem to have the lowest threat of any tank. It is still more than sufficient to keep threat off the squishies, but in a contest between multiple tanks we are lowest. This can be used tactically, since we are good at picking up groups of mobs so the other tank can focus on a single big enemy. Or they can use an AOE to pull a group of mobs off us while we force taunt a single big enemy and pull him away from their AOE.

As long as you prepare for it, you can build strategies around it.

[exochaft]

Isn't that how Dreamwalk works? Takes you to the DG, use it again and it takes you back where you were?

Same way the Moonglade TP functions.

I'm saying you use Dreamwalk, walk through one of the portals, go do some stuff, maybe run an instance or go quest... use it again, and instead of going to the Dream, you end up somewhere else. The humorous part is that it's sent me places where I didn't use Dreamwalk at all, or even places where I didn't use any sort of fast-travel mechanic.

[Selerian]

Speaking anecdotally, we seem to have the lowest threat of any tank. It is still more than sufficient to keep threat off the squishies, but in a contest between multiple tanks we are lowest. This can be used tactically, since we are good at picking up groups of mobs so the other tank can focus on a single big enemy. Or they can use an AOE to pull a group of mobs off us while we force taunt a single big enemy and pull him away from their AOE.

As long as you prepare for it, you can build strategies around it.

The problem with that is that I'm going to be the MT of my guild so I'm pretty concerned about finding myself constantly losing aggro to my OT.

[Kaolin]

So the Darkmoon trinket for tanks was recently buffed. Would the new amount of bonus armor make it desirable?