Vengeance FAQ

[Munkky]

Ok so a lot of people are asking the same questions every day. Whether it's on this forum or on one of the two discords. It is getting tiresome saying the same things over and over so I am making this so that I can just send someone here. This is not to dissuade you from having discussions, but simply to make it easier and allowing new discussion too occur. There will also be a trend you see if you look at the comments here and those made in the discords. Often you will see the people who played Alpha/Beta say that "souls are meh"/XYZ talents are good, and people who just started playing DH are saying "OMG my souls!!!!" or that ABC talents are good. (Many of which either contradict my guides or the experiences of the people who played Beta) This is not meant to dishearten those who are newer, but simply to showcase that many of us have a ton more experience playing this class and there are reasons why the guides say what they do. I am not saying I am always right, (I make mistakes every day) but simply to pay attention and listen to those who have played more, because we all already tested and have done and seen he harder content that some are neglecting to think about. I.e. Most of the "experiences/feelings" people are getting are in Normals/Heroics/Mythic 0 Dungs, of which many cleared sub 800 ilvl. Alright onto the FAQ.

Does anyone have a BiS gear list?
https://www.wowhead.com/guides/class...vengeance/gear

Does it include Trinkets?
Yes

What stats should I go for?
Survival: Vers > Haste > Mastery > Crit
DPS: Mastery = Crit >= Vers >= Haste
In MYTHIC+ Dungeons: Mastery > Crit = Vers > Haste

So does this mean I want 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
No

Does this mean Mastery is better than Haste?
No

So then what does it mean?
Vers > Haste > Mastery > Crit
Vers is better than Haste which is slightly better than Mastery which is better than Crit. Easy

So this that mean I should go Vers 100%, or go 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
Again no. You want to have somewhat of a balance in the stats. If you go full Vers, you're Haste/Mastery will be lacking so you will have less DS casts and they won't mean much. You want to go Vers, then go for Haste then go for Mastery on whatever you have left. So what this means, is that if you get a piece that has Vers/Haste and a second piece with Vers/Mastery you would choose the first piece. If you can't figure out which item is better, you can post up in either of the discords or on here (discords will reply faster) and someone will answer you.

What are the soft caps? Every class has them???
There are 2 soft caps that are currently unobtainable. I will release them later when we have a chance of getting too them. Many people can't comprehend having a soft cap.

I can't reach my soul shards, or I prefer using X talent because it generates more souls.
People get so obsessed over soul FRAGMENTS. They don't heal for that much, and losing a couple won't effect you much at all (i.e. Spirit Bomb). In most cases it is best to not run over your souls. Fueled by Pain is Rppm so missing out on one or two souls won't kill you.

Why Charred Warblades over Painbringer?
Painbringer is good, but requires using Fallout to make it really good. As well as tanking against the wall or moving a lot to pick up the souls to keep the buff rolling. Charred Warblades grows exponentially with AoE and requires simply using your rotation to get the heals. It is also very easy and cheap too get too when going through Fueled By Pain. Painbringer requires a lot more work too get too and in Raids, isn't as good due too lack of soul gen. The recent hotfix fixed the stacking on it and it now stacks to 5 stacks (15% DR) at the most.

Ok on to talents. The big stuff

Row 100/Tier 2 What talents do I pick???
The general idea is: Feast for Single Target, Fallout for AoE (gets better with Painbringer), Burning Alive for AoE on harder content and you actually use Fiery Brand (gets better with Legendary boots). That's it, no other thinking about it. Simple.

Row 102/Tier 3
Felblade for Single Target or too help with threat gen. It is not used for the healing on Charred Warblades, that's just a bonus.
Flame Crash for AoE DPS/Some surv due too healing from Charred Warblades that is decent on AoE
Fel Eruption is useless outside of pvp

Row 104/Tier 4 One of the big ones
Feed the Demon gives roughly 1-2 extra Demon Spikes every trash pack. This depends on how long it takes for you too kill the trash. Note that this talent should only be chosen with Fallout, as your soul gen outside of that isn't worth it. In a raid encounter, without fallout you will get maybe 1 extra DS a minute. Getting the Legendary ring does not make this good enough to overcome Soul Rending. This is better in M+ than in raiding, but is a preference thing between this and Soul Rending. YOU CANNOT HAVE 100% UPTIME WITH THIS CURRENTLY IN A RAID.
Fracture is only too be used on DPS. The requirements of having too use multiple gcds for sub par healing and too use a later talent that is mediocre, makes this bad for surv.
Soul Rending is the go to talent. Why though? As explained earlier on uptimes of Feed the Demon, Feed isn't that valuable in raids, and is ok in dungs. Soul Rending makes your Metamorphosis a valuable cooldown and improves Last Resort as a cooldown. The other main reason for this is the amazing amount of procs you get of Fueled By Pain. It is common to get 2-3 procs a minute, or 1-2 procs per trash pack. With Soul Rending, you become pretty much invincible as you are healing for so much on top of having increased health.

Row 108/Tier 6
Fel Devastation is the go to. It is easiest to manage, has the only burst healing of the row, and can be the easiest to have high damage on.
Blade Turning gives sub par pain gen and while it may feel "smoother" it really isn't that much. It only gives 5 pain per proc.
Spirit Bomb is the smoothest healing/most healing, but requires good dps to become so. In Dungs it isn't as good due too them being more about burst than smoothing. In raids is where it will excel. An easy way to manage this is if you use fallout, you simply use Immolation Aura into Spirit Bomb, every time. If you aren't using Fallout, then you have to manage your souls and make sure to apply one before Frailty drops. This ability is only to be used for the Frailty debuff, not for dps.

Row 110/Tier 7
Last Resort Gives you a cheat death that procs Metamorphosis and can save a wipe once every 3 minutes. This makes taking huge hits ok as you will simply pop back up. This is the primary choice for this row.
Nether Bond Situational based on your raid, strategy, the boss. Use it at your own discretion.
Soul Barrier The highly talked about ability that has caused the biggest dispute in the VDH community. This ability gives you a base shield, that is increased per the amount of souls you absorb during its duration, AND has a minimum absorb that doesn't fall off. This minimum absorb will eat up X amount of damage from anything that damages you. So if you have a 50k minimum and get hit for 100k, you only take 50k damage. Simple. Where the community is split is whether it is better than Last Resort. All the Beta testers are against it and swear by Last Resort. Many of the newer players swear by Soul Barrier. Now why is this?
On easier content, i.e. Normal/Heroic/Mythic 0 dungeons, the absorb is decent. It isn't blow your mind amazing, but it does help some. The minimum acts as a constant DR. In the lower content it can be 10% or higher, which isn't that bad especially given the duration and cd. Though that makes it sound good right? Right. It isn't a terrible ability it just doesn't absorb that much later on.
In Raid testing, bosses in LFR were hitting for 300-400k Auto Attacks. Thats before any special abilities, or adds, or raid wide damage, or debuffs. Just white attacks. That is your entire base shield. Now for Mythic bosses. Dragons of Nightmare was widely concidered undertuned for tank damage and most scoffed at how much the dragons hit for. They still hit for about 600k damage auto attacks. That's your whole base shield + absorbing 4-5 souls. The minimum will continue to help absorb some damage and is the only really worthwhile part of this ability, as like I stated previously, it acts like a constant DR.

That is all for now. If I think of some more I will post them up here.
If you have any questions feel free to comment here or post in either of the discords. (As I said, the Discords are the quickest ways of getting replies)
You can also PM me at any time.
Also If you read all of this, you are a trooper.

[cixy]

what is that BiS slot ? its ~ilvl 825 and focused on vers/haste , i dont think that this is BiS

nvm something on wowhead is wrong some of these items only drops in mythic dungeon so it must be 840+

[Neudgae]

what is that BiS slot ? its ~ilvl 825 and focused on vers/haste , i dont think that this is BiS

nvm something on wowhead is wrong some of these items only drops in mythic dungeon so it must be 840+

even if they are only 825 ilvl, everything has titanforging so you can just keep farming it over and over til you get a higher version

[Flaryon]

Real thing for me is, we need a BiS list for mythic+ dungeons. This is the content I imagine most would care to gear for

[Gull]

What stats should I go for?
Survival: Vers > Haste >= Mastery > Crit
DPS: Mastery = Crit >= Vers >= Haste
In MYTHIC+ Dungeons: Mastery > Crit >= Vers > Haste

So does this mean I want 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
No

Does this mean Mastery is better than Haste?
No

So then what does it mean?
Vers > Haste >= Mastery > Crit
Vers is better than Haste which is slightly better than Mastery which is better than Crit. Easy

So this that mean I should go Vers 100%, or go 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
Again no. You want to have somewhat of a balance in the stats. If you go full Vers, you're Haste/Mastery will be lacking so you will have less DS casts and they won't mean much. You want to go Vers, then go for Haste then go for Mastery on whatever you have left. So what this means, is that if you get a piece that has Vers/Haste and a second piece with Vers/Mastery you would choose the first piece. If you can't figure out which item is better, you can post up in either of the discords or on here (discords will reply faster) and someone will answer you.

What are the soft caps? Every class has them???
There are 2 soft caps that are currently unobtainable. I will release them later when we have a chance of getting too them. Many people can't comprehend having a soft cap..

How much balance is necessary? I am mostly crafting my gear and have collected pretty much entirely vers/haste gear. Should I instead have a few pieces with Vers/Mast?

Thank you very much for the guide!

[Burnick]

So, I find my up keep on Demonspikes is probably rather low, I have 27% Haste, 33% mastery, 9% vers, 844iLvL, all 3 relic slots.

Talents are Agonizing, Feast, Felblade, SOul rendering, Sigil of chains, Fel Dev, Last resort.

I took the Artifact path through fueled by pain too charred warblades. 11.8 Second CD on Demon Spikes. I use it everytime its off cooldown (Keep a usuage if a boss requires it). Should I always have 1 stack up, or should I never have a stack for it? I couldnt tell you at this exact moment what my uptime is for it, but I think its not near what it should be.

What kind of up times are you guys seeing? And how are you achieveing it. I'm using DS off CD. (AoE fights, I typically spike around alot but never really feel in danger of dying, Boss fights I get told Im boring to heal)

[Munkky]

How much balance is necessary? I am mostly crafting my gear and have collected pretty much entirely vers/haste gear. Should I instead have a few pieces with Vers/Mast?

Thank you very much for the guide!

If you are crafting all your gear and intending on going raiding, id do 70/30 haste to mastery.

[simonlvschal]

Ok so a lot of people are asking the same questions every day. Whether it's on this forum or on one of the two discords. It is getting tiresome saying the same things over and over so I am making this so that I can just send someone here. This is not to dissuade you from having discussions, but simply to make it easier and allowing new discussion too occur. There will also be a trend you see if you look at the comments here and those made in the discords. Often you will see the people who played Alpha/Beta say that "souls are meh"/XYZ talents are good, and people who just started playing DH are saying "OMG my souls!!!!" or that ABC talents are good. (Many of which either contradict my guides or the experiences of the people who played Beta) This is not meant to dishearten those who are newer, but simply to showcase that many of us have a ton more experience playing this class and there are reasons why the guides say what they do. I am not saying I am always right, (I make mistakes every day) but simply to pay attention and listen to those who have played more, because we all already tested and have done and seen he harder content that some are neglecting to think about. I.e. Most of the "experiences/feelings" people are getting are in Normals/Heroics/Mythic 0 Dungs, of which many cleared sub 800 ilvl. Alright onto the FAQ.

Does anyone have a BiS gear list?
https://www.wowhead.com/guides/class...vengeance/gear

Does it include Trinkets?
Yes

What stats should I go for?
Survival: Vers > Haste >= Mastery > Crit
DPS: Mastery = Crit >= Vers >= Haste
In MYTHIC+ Dungeons: Mastery > Crit >= Vers > Haste

So does this mean I want 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
No

Does this mean Mastery is better than Haste?
No

So then what does it mean?
Vers > Haste >= Mastery > Crit
Vers is better than Haste which is slightly better than Mastery which is better than Crit. Easy

So this that mean I should go Vers 100%, or go 50/50 Haste/Mastery?
Again no. You want to have somewhat of a balance in the stats. If you go full Vers, you're Haste/Mastery will be lacking so you will have less DS casts and they won't mean much. You want to go Vers, then go for Haste then go for Mastery on whatever you have left. So what this means, is that if you get a piece that has Vers/Haste and a second piece with Vers/Mastery you would choose the first piece. If you can't figure out which item is better, you can post up in either of the discords or on here (discords will reply faster) and someone will answer you.

What are the soft caps? Every class has them???
There are 2 soft caps that are currently unobtainable. I will release them later when we have a chance of getting too them. Many people can't comprehend having a soft cap.

I can't reach my soul shards, or I prefer using X talent because it generates more souls.
People get so obsessed over soul FRAGMENTS. They don't heal for that much, and losing a couple won't effect you much at all (i.e. Spirit Bomb). In most cases it is best to not run over your souls. Fueled by Pain is Rppm so missing out on one or two souls won't kill you.

Why Charred Warblades over Painbringer?
Painbringer is good, but requires using Fallout to make it really good. As well as tanking against the wall or moving a lot to pick up the souls to keep the buff rolling. Blizzard now knows that you can have 100% DR from Painbringer, so expect a nerf too it soon. Also yes this is something that has been known since the DH was released in Alpha, when souls really mattered. Charred Warblades grows exponentially with AoE and requires simply using your rotation to get the heals. It is also very easy and cheap too get too when going through Fueled By Pain. Painbringer requires a lot more work too get too and in Raids, isn't as good due too lack of soul gen.

Ok on to talents. The big stuff

Row 100/Tier 2 What talents do I pick???
The general idea is: Feast for Single Target, Fallout for AoE (gets better with Painbringer), Burning Alive for AoE on harder content and you actually use Fiery Brand (gets better with Legendary boots). That's it, no other thinking about it. Simple.

Row 102/Tier 3
Felblade for Single Target or too help with threat gen. It is not used for the healing on Charred Warblades, that's just a bonus.
Flame Crash for AoE DPS/Some surv due too healing from Charred Warblades that is decent on AoE
Fel Eruption is useless outside of pvp

Row 104/Tier 4 One of the big ones
Feed the Demon gives roughly 1-2 extra Demon Spikes every trash pack. This depends on how long it takes for you too kill the trash. Note that this talent should only be chosen with Fallout, as your soul gen outside of that isn't worth it. In a raid encounter, without fallout you will get maybe 1 extra DS a minute. Getting the Legendary ring does not make this good enough to overcome Soul Rending. YOU CANNOT HAVE 100% UPTIME WITH THIS CURRENTLY.
Fracture is only too be used on DPS. The requirements of having too use multiple gcds for sub par healing and too use a later talent that is mediocre, makes this bad for surv.
Soul Rending is the go to talent. Why though? As explained earlier on uptimes of Feed the Demon, Feed isn't that valuable in raids, and is ok in dungs. Soul Rending makes your Metamorphosis a valuable cooldown and improves Last Resort as a cooldown. The other main reason for this is the amazing amount of procs you get of Fueled By Pain. It is common to get 2-3 procs a minute, or 1-2 procs per trash pack. With Soul Rending, you become pretty much invincible as you are healing for so much on top of having increased health.

Row 108/Tier 6
Fel Devastation is the go to. It is easiest to manage, has the only burst healing of the row, and can be the easiest to have high damage on.
Blade Turning gives sub par pain gen and while it may feel "smoother" it really isn't that much. It only gives 5 pain per proc.
Spirit Bomb is the smoothest healing/most healing, but requires good dps to become so. In Dungs it isn't as good due too them being more about burst than smoothing. In raids is where it will excel. An easy way to manage this is if you use fallout, you simply use Immolation Aura into Spirit Bomb, every time. If you aren't using Fallout, then you have to manage your souls and make sure to apply one before Frailty drops. This ability is only to be used for the Frailty debuff, not for dps.

Row 110/Tier 7
Last Resort Gives you a cheat death that procs Metamorphosis and can save a wipe once every 3 minutes. This makes taking huge hits ok as you will simply pop back up. This is the primary choice for this row.
Nether Bond Situational based on your raid, strategy, the boss. Use it at your own discretion.
Soul Barrier The highly talked about ability that has caused the biggest dispute in the VDH community. This ability gives you a base shield, that is increased per the amount of souls you absorb during its duration, AND has a minimum absorb that doesn't fall off. This minimum absorb will eat up X amount of damage from anything that damages you. So if you have a 50k minimum and get hit for 100k, you only take 50k damage. Simple. Where the community is split is whether it is better than Last Resort. All the Beta testers are against it and swear by Last Resort. Many of the newer players swear by Soul Barrier. Now why is this?
On easier content, i.e. Normal/Heroic/Mythic 0 dungeons, the absorb is decent. It isn't blow your mind amazing, but it does help some. The minimum acts as a constant DR. In the lower content it can be 10% or higher, which isn't that bad especially given the duration and cd. Though that makes it sound good right? Right. It isn't a terrible ability it just doesn't absorb that much later on.
In Raid testing, bosses in LFR were hitting for 300-400k Auto Attacks. Thats before any special abilities, or adds, or raid wide damage, or debuffs. Just white attacks. That is your entire base shield. Now for Mythic bosses. Dragons of Nightmare was widely concidered undertuned for tank damage and most scoffed at how much the dragons hit for. They still hit for about 600k damage auto attacks. That's your whole base shield + absorbing 4-5 souls. The minimum will continue to help absorb some damage and is the only really worthwhile part of this ability, as like I stated previously, it acts like a constant DR.

That is all for now. If I think of some more I will post them up here.
If you have any questions feel free to comment here or post in either of the discords. (As I said, the Discords are the quickest ways of getting replies)
You can also PM me at any time.
Also If you read all of this, you are a trooper.

Haste Is useless for a Veng Tank.. you dont gain any benefit whatsoever The stat u have to follow is

Versi>Mastery>Haste, This is for Mythic dungeons and raids,myth + and so on. haste is just not going to help you do anything.

also Demon spike is your constantly uptime damage reduction ability. in Mythic dungeons i have a upkeep of 90% time on Demon spike. and i use Soul Barrier to stop heavy damage like last boss in Vaults with the kicks. basicly the Shield can absorb the entier kick and no dmg taken this is extreamly useful.

The Barrier for me atm can absorb 1.1mil dmg if i have 6 souls stored. otherwise its avg around 800-900k

While Soul barrier is on CD i have demon spike that reduces the Physical dmg only but it also does it well about 55% reduction atm with 43% mastery.

Versi around 11% it doesnt offer extreme dmg reduction but it gives a good amount. atm around 5.6% less overall damage taken from all sources. magic+phys and also i do 11% more dmg and heal 11% more.

i am a ilvl 848 DH veng i solo a few mythic bosses without healer as i know how to upkeep my Hp.

once again Haste is utterly useless and will not affect your dmg reduction or anything else.

- - - Updated - - -

So, I find my up keep on Demonspikes is probably rather low, I have 27% Haste, 33% mastery, 9% vers, 844iLvL, all 3 relic slots.

Talents are Agonizing, Feast, Felblade, SOul rendering, Sigil of chains, Fel Dev, Last resort.

I took the Artifact path through fueled by pain too charred warblades. 11.8 Second CD on Demon Spikes. I use it everytime its off cooldown (Keep a usuage if a boss requires it). Should I always have 1 stack up, or should I never have a stack for it? I couldnt tell you at this exact moment what my uptime is for it, but I think its not near what it should be.

What kind of up times are you guys seeing? And how are you achieveing it. I'm using DS off CD. (AoE fights, I typically spike around alot but never really feel in danger of dying, Boss fights I get told Im boring to heal)

because Haste is useless and you got the wrong Talents.. Soul rendering is utterly useless as your metamorp does not have a constant uptime. and so u wont get the leech.. better choice here is Feed the Demon since it reduces your CD by 1 sec for every soul fragment used. Aka soul fragments are constantly used and while Demon spike has 14 sec CD i normally find the cooldown to be reduces to 4-6 sec really fast as i constantly consume souls. also your talents are wrong.

this is the optimal Talents.

Agonizing Flames,Feast of souls,Flame Crash,Feed the Demon, Concentrated sigils, Fel devastion, Soul Barrier

Agonizing flames 30% movement speed and 50% more damage while its active. Super useful for raiding and dungeoneering.

Feast of souls heals you for extra 100k ish when using Soul cleve. Super importent as Soul cleve is used for Survival and crucial damage parts like Cordana kicks. can heal you for up to 1-1.5mil if u store 6 souls.

Flame Crash one of the better choices as u use Fel Crash it places a sigil of flame while burns your enemies. which also allow your 15% dmg from fire as healing to trigger and the 30% from the other talent in your artifact.

Concentrated sigils is the best choice as u just use the sigil and its placed beneath you instead of having to target a area on the map..
Fel devastion is the best ability for both aggro and healing control for Large group or small groups. as it heals and dmg alot.

Soul Barrier is the best one u can get as it is a shield that can absorb up to 1.1mil damage if correctly used. and 1.1mil is alot of damage not taken and also it cannot be reduced below 55k.

oh and i suggest u do not listen to the thread maker as it is clear that he does not know how impactful the stats or talents are. and that wowhead guide is utterly wrong and will only help you fail more then survive

[Burnick]

Haste Is useless for a Veng Tank.. you dont gain any benefit whatsoever The stat u have to follow is

Versi>Mastery>Haste, This is for Mythic dungeons and raids,myth + and so on. haste is just not going to help you do anything.

also Demon spike is your constantly uptime damage reduction ability. in Mythic dungeons i have a upkeep of 90% time on Demon spike. and i use Soul Barrier to stop heavy damage like last boss in Vaults with the kicks. basicly the Shield can absorb the entier kick and no dmg taken this is extreamly useful.

The Barrier for me atm can absorb 1.1mil dmg if i have 6 souls stored. otherwise its avg around 800-900k

While Soul barrier is on CD i have demon spike that reduces the Physical dmg only but it also does it well about 55% reduction atm with 43% mastery.

Versi around 11% it doesnt offer extreme dmg reduction but it gives a good amount. atm around 5.6% less overall damage taken from all sources. magic+phys and also i do 11% more dmg and heal 11% more.

i am a ilvl 848 DH veng i solo a few mythic bosses without healer as i know how to upkeep my Hp.

once again Haste is utterly useless and will not affect your dmg reduction or anything else.

- - - Updated - - -



because Haste is useless and you got the wrong Talents.. Soul rendering is utterly useless as your metamorp does not have a constant uptime. and so u wont get the leech.. better choice here is Feed the Demon since it reduces your CD by 1 sec for every soul fragment used. Aka soul fragments are constantly used and while Demon spike has 14 sec CD i normally find the cooldown to be reduces to 4-6 sec really fast as i constantly consume souls. also your talents are wrong.

this is the optimal Talents.

Agonizing Flames,Feast of souls,Flame Crash,Feed the Demon, Concentrated sigils, Fel devastion, Soul Barrier

Agonizing flames 30% movement speed and 50% more damage while its active. Super useful for raiding and dungeoneering.

Feast of souls heals you for extra 100k ish when using Soul cleve. Super importent as Soul cleve is used for Survival and crucial damage parts like Cordana kicks. can heal you for up to 1-1.5mil if u store 6 souls.

Flame Crash one of the better choices as u use Fel Crash it places a sigil of flame while burns your enemies. which also allow your 15% dmg from fire as healing to trigger and the 30% from the other talent in your artifact.

Concentrated sigils is the best choice as u just use the sigil and its placed beneath you instead of having to target a area on the map..
Fel devastion is the best ability for both aggro and healing control for Large group or small groups. as it heals and dmg alot.

Soul Barrier is the best one u can get as it is a shield that can absorb up to 1.1mil damage if correctly used. and 1.1mil is alot of damage not taken and also it cannot be reduced below 55k.

oh and i suggest u do not listen to the thread maker as it is clear that he does not know how impactful the stats or talents are. and that wowhead guide is utterly wrong and will only help you fail more then survive

I think you seem to misunderstand me, Im not having troubles with stats, or survival at all. My survivability is actuually insanely good, I've been soloing mythic bosses when groups wipe with complete ease.

And Im pretty sure Im gunna go ahead and keep following the 100+ Professionally made guides that you find every where over someone who speaks to people as you do. And IDk about you, But with my high amount of haste, my Metamorphis from Fueled by pain procs quite alot. I've tried Soul Shield,A nd honestly do not notice a difference with it what so ever. It has such a low timer compared to its large CD. I'd rather consistently survive and if I do some how die, Last resort saves me (This does not happen often, I've pulled entire bottom floor of the boat in Maw almost and never saw it proc)

I was below 18% haste for a while, and once I got higher I noticed a massive difference in my survivability.
You can continue thinking those are your stats thats fine, It is for >DUNGEONS< Im readying up for raids, Dungeons are not my main goal.

I asked for tips of DS uptime as I feel I may not be up to par, Not how to play my entire class.

[Azszora]

I don't think that Fel Eruption is useless outside of PVP. It is a great way to stun a mob to interrupt uninterruptable casts in dungeons. I know that Sigil of Misery is another great mass interrupt, but I like Fel Eruption. Great damage on bosses as well.

[simonlvschal]

I think you seem to misunderstand me, Im not having troubles with stats, or survival at all. My survivability is actuually insanely good, I've been soloing mythic bosses when groups wipe with complete ease.

And Im pretty sure Im gunna go ahead and keep following the 100+ Professionally made guides that you find every where over someone who speaks to people as you do. And IDk about you, But with my high amount of haste, my Metamorphis from Fueled by pain procs quite alot. I've tried Soul Shield,A nd honestly do not notice a difference with it what so ever. It has such a low timer compared to its large CD. I'd rather consistently survive and if I do some how die, Last resort saves me (This does not happen often, I've pulled entire bottom floor of the boat in Maw almost and never saw it proc)

I was below 18% haste for a while, and once I got higher I noticed a massive difference in my survivability.
You can continue thinking those are your stats thats fine, It is for >DUNGEONS< Im readying up for raids, Dungeons are not my main goal.

I asked for tips of DS uptime as I feel I may not be up to par, Not how to play my entire class.

eh u do know metamorph does not proc on pain.. it procs on Soul consumed. however only by a very low chance. and also Metamorp isnt the thing that will help you survive..

Last Resort is utterly useless as it has 3min CD and u only get 30% hp back which will not last normally only 1 hit by a boss while Soul barrier would allow you to get Hp back to full without having problems.

and also because your DS uptime suck is because of the wrong Talent.. Feed the demon is must have. reduces the CD on DS. and haste wont help you alot

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think that Fel Eruption is useless outside of PVP. It is a great way to stun a mob to interrupt uninterruptable casts in dungeons. I know that Sigil of Misery is another great mass interrupt, but I like Fel Eruption. Great damage on bosses as well.

Fel Eruption is useless

[DeuZWw]

Haste Is useless for a Veng Tank.. you dont gain any benefit whatsoever

I'm not absolutely a pro, i'm only ilvl820 and haven't done Mythic. And i get that there's alot of ways to tank and actually be good at it.

But, i'm pretty sure that Haste is not useless because it reduces your Global Cooldown, meaning you can use Everything(Sher, Soul Cleave) alot more times and faster, meaning you will have more Pain Generation, and more Lesser Soul Fragments.
Also haste reduces de cooldown of Demon Spikes and Immolation aura.

Again, i'm not a pro and i don't know what a good amount of haste should be good, but i'm sitting at a 1.387 sec GCD with only 8% haste. So i kinda gain an "extra" action every few seconds, while someone without haste would have to wait the whole 1.5s


*EDIT FOR EXTRA INFO*
For the sake of GCD calc. if you wanna know you GCD use this macro:

/use Shear
/run local _,d = GetSpellCooldown(61304); print(d)

it will use Shear and calculate the GCD. you can use any other spell that triggers the GCD instead of Shear.

[Azszora]

Fel Eruption is useless

Great argument.

[DeuZWw]

I don't think that Fel Eruption is useless outside of PVP. It is a great way to stun a mob to interrupt uninterruptable casts in dungeons. I know that Sigil of Misery is another great mass interrupt, but I like Fel Eruption. Great damage on bosses as well.

The problem is that Fel Eruption is way worse. it does have some good damage, yes. but Felblade does damage, generate Pain as it replaces Shear in GCD, Shear can reset the cooldown of Felblade for even more Pain generation .And it is Fire Damage, which gives you extra healing thanks to Charred Warblades.

Flame Crash is all fire damagetoo, giving extra healing thanks to charred warblades, but in an AoE, so you will have a good amount of healing for using it. Against single targets it isn't THAT good, but it still a decent amount of damage.

But, of course, Fel Eruption is not bad, there are just few situations where it can shine.(If there's a specific fight where Stuns are needed that can be good).

And, after all that, Fel Eruption waste 10 Pain and have a 35cd. 10 Pain = 1 Shear, meaning you will waste 2GCDs for casting fel eruption and that won't generate a single defensive bonus, unless the mob can be stunned. And could also end up wasting a needed pain for a heal or demon spikes, resulting into more income damage that could be Fatal.

Also, Does anyone know if Fel Eruption Chaos Damage gets healing for charred warblades? Since Chaos is all magic schools i would like to know if anyone tested.

[simonlvschal]

The problem is that Fel Eruption is way worse. it does have some good damage, yes. but Felblade does damage, generate Pain as it replaces Shear in GCD, Shear can reset the cooldown of Felblade for even more Pain generation .And it is Fire Damage, which gives you extra healing thanks to Charred Warblades.

Flame Crash is all fire damagetoo, giving extra healing thanks to charred warblades, but in an AoE, so you will have a good amount of healing for using it. Against single targets it isn't THAT good, but it still a decent amount of damage.

But, of course, Fel Eruption is not bad, there are just few situations where it can shine.(If there's a specific fight where Stuns are needed that can be good).

And, after all that, Fel Eruption waste 10 Pain and have a 35cd. 10 Pain = 1 Shear, meaning you will waste 2GCDs for casting fel eruption and that won't generate a single defensive bonus, unless the mob can be stunned. And could also end up wasting a needed pain for a heal or demon spikes, resulting into more income damage that could be Fatal.

Also, Does anyone know if Fel Eruption Chaos Damage gets healing for charred warblades? Since Chaos is all magic schools i would like to know if anyone tested.

Chaos is dark magic not exactly fire or anything..

also FLame Crash is very useful regardless of size of monster pull.. and extra dmg and so so. plus if people have problems having enough Pain gen or Soul shards they are doing something wrong.. i can say this cause i got a constant shard or constant pain generation from various sources. and haste doesnt benefit this even if it reduces GCD...

i have tested it various times using BLoodlust or timewarp. the haste is nice but isn't useful. and infact only causes more problems then it helps

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I'm not absolutely a pro, i'm only ilvl820 and haven't done Mythic. And i get that there's alot of ways to tank and actually be good at it.

But, i'm pretty sure that Haste is not useless because it reduces your Global Cooldown, meaning you can use Everything(Sher, Soul Cleave) alot more times and faster, meaning you will have more Pain Generation, and more Lesser Soul Fragments.
Also haste reduces de cooldown of Demon Spikes and Immolation aura.

Again, i'm not a pro and i don't know what a good amount of haste should be good, but i'm sitting at a 1.387 sec GCD with only 8% haste. So i kinda gain an "extra" action every few seconds, while someone without haste would have to wait the whole 1.5s


*EDIT FOR EXTRA INFO*
For the sake of GCD calc. if you wanna know you GCD use this macro:

/use Shear
/run local _,d = GetSpellCooldown(61304); print(d)

it will use Shear and calculate the GCD. you can use any other spell that triggers the GCD instead of Shear.

welp the fact that people are not even capable of having enough pain or soul shards with high haste makes me think they are just failling badly at doing their job. i can maintain 100% pain and soul shard even with 5% haste only.

[Veiled Shadow]

And, after all that, Fel Eruption waste 10 Pain and have a 35cd. 10 Pain = 1 Shear, meaning you will waste 2GCDs for casting fel eruption and that won't generate a single defensive bonus, unless the mob can be stunned. And could also end up wasting a needed pain for a heal or demon spikes, resulting into more income damage that could be Fatal.

Fel Eruption costs 1 GCD. The fact that it costs 10 pain does not add to its GCD requirement. Felblade itself is on the GCD as well, so GCDs are not a factor when we compare the talents. So, Fel Eruption effectively costs you the damage and pain generation of a Shear in addition to its own pain requirement, so essentially 20 pain and 327% weapon damage. Felblade costs you the damage of a Shear, and gives you 10 pain over casting Shear (i.e. one-sixth of a Soul Cleave which is 110% weapon damage, I believe). I'm also fairly sure that Felblade doesn't even do as much base damage as an artifact-boosted Shear (308% weapon damage as Fire, I think).


Both proc Charred Warblades and benefit from Fiery Demise. Generally you will fit 3 Felblades into a 35s window (approximately), so all these considerations have to be taken into comparing the two talents.

Last Resort is utterly useless as it has 3min CD and u only get 30% hp back which will not last normally only 1 hit by a boss while Soul barrier would allow you to get Hp back to full without having problems.

Wow. Comments like this show that you have no idea of how tanking works. What's even more funny is that you're speaking about maximizing Demon Spikes uptime via Feed the Demon, and yet you're actively using a talent that decreases that. . .

[DeuZWw]

Chaos is dark magic not exactly fire or anything..

Chaos refers to a type of magic wielded by warlocks and demon hunters. Chaos is a unique multi-school, combining all the seven schools of magic: Arcane, Fire, Frost, Holy, Nature, Shadow and even Physical.
That's why i wondered if Charred Warblades affected Chaos Damage as well. would make sense to.

welp the fact that people are not even capable of having enough pain or soul shards with high haste makes me think they are just failling badly at doing their job. i can maintain 100% pain and soul shard even with 5% haste only.

maintain pain and soul shard isn't a problem with or without haste. but with haste you will have more soul fragments for the entire duration of the fight, will have done more self-healing in general too. More haste = more actions. Haste basically make you do everything you can do, but faster.
Guys who do those guides uses alot of math, thats why they say "haste >= mastery", meaning haste is slightly better at BiS than mastery, but having mastery instead isn't bad and you won't ever wipe or die by not having enough haste. That's my understading of haste at least.

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Fel Eruption costs 1 GCD. The fact that it costs 10 pain does not add to its GCD requirement. Felblade itself is on the GCD as well, so GCDs are not a factor when we compare the talents. So, Fel Eruption effectively costs you the damage and pain generation of a Shear in addition to its own pain requirement, so essentially 20 pain and 327% weapon damage. Felblade costs you the damage of a Shear, and gives you 10 pain over casting Shear (i.e. one-sixth of a Soul Cleave which is 110% weapon damage, I believe). I'm also fairly sure that Felblade doesn't even do as much base damage as an artifact-boosted Shear (308% weapon damage as Fire, I think).


Both proc Charred Warblades and benefit from Fiery Demise. Generally you will fit 3 Felblades into a 35s window (approximately), so all these considerations have to be taken into comparing the two talents.

Yes, but i mean Fel Eruption = 1 GCD, Shear = 1GCD, one waste 10 pain and one generate 10 pain. after 2 GCD you will have 0 Pain. while Felblade+Shear you will have 30 Pain, meaning you will be ready to unleash a Soul Cleave if needed. And it's even stronger because of Shear Felblade cd reset. So in the end you used 2 GCD and ended up with Extra Pain to use. But yes, felblade damage vs artifact-boosted shear is actually a thing i had not think about(only rank1 of shear dmg boost).

If you are sure that both proc Charred Warblades and Benify from Fiery Demise, then Fel Eruption isn't that far behind on survivability i guess. Maybe it's even a little better if you use Spirit Bomb for extra 10% leech from it's high damage. i'm not sure how spirit bomb scales with charred, but if it's additive then it's a 25% leech from Fel Eruption damage.

i'm not good enough at math to do all this theorycrafting, but would love to know the actual numbers lol

[truevalon]

Chaos is dark magic not exactly fire or anything..


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Chaos damage uses the damage type that would benefit you the most. So if you have Fiery demise up on the target it will be fire damage and be affected by charred warblades.

[Neudgae]

Haste Is useless for a Veng Tank.. you dont gain any benefit whatsoever The stat u have to follow is

Versi>Mastery>Haste, This is for Mythic dungeons and raids,myth + and so on. haste is just not going to help you do anything.

also Demon spike is your constantly uptime damage reduction ability. in Mythic dungeons i have a upkeep of 90% time on Demon spike. and i use Soul Barrier to stop heavy damage like last boss in Vaults with the kicks. basicly the Shield can absorb the entier kick and no dmg taken this is extreamly useful.

The Barrier for me atm can absorb 1.1mil dmg if i have 6 souls stored. otherwise its avg around 800-900k

While Soul barrier is on CD i have demon spike that reduces the Physical dmg only but it also does it well about 55% reduction atm with 43% mastery.

Versi around 11% it doesnt offer extreme dmg reduction but it gives a good amount. atm around 5.6% less overall damage taken from all sources. magic+phys and also i do 11% more dmg and heal 11% more.

i am a ilvl 848 DH veng i solo a few mythic bosses without healer as i know how to upkeep my Hp.

once again Haste is utterly useless and will not affect your dmg reduction or anything else.

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because Haste is useless and you got the wrong Talents.. Soul rendering is utterly useless as your metamorp does not have a constant uptime. and so u wont get the leech.. better choice here is Feed the Demon since it reduces your CD by 1 sec for every soul fragment used. Aka soul fragments are constantly used and while Demon spike has 14 sec CD i normally find the cooldown to be reduces to 4-6 sec really fast as i constantly consume souls. also your talents are wrong.

this is the optimal Talents.

Agonizing Flames,Feast of souls,Flame Crash,Feed the Demon, Concentrated sigils, Fel devastion, Soul Barrier

Agonizing flames 30% movement speed and 50% more damage while its active. Super useful for raiding and dungeoneering.

Feast of souls heals you for extra 100k ish when using Soul cleve. Super importent as Soul cleve is used for Survival and crucial damage parts like Cordana kicks. can heal you for up to 1-1.5mil if u store 6 souls.

Flame Crash one of the better choices as u use Fel Crash it places a sigil of flame while burns your enemies. which also allow your 15% dmg from fire as healing to trigger and the 30% from the other talent in your artifact.

Concentrated sigils is the best choice as u just use the sigil and its placed beneath you instead of having to target a area on the map..
Fel devastion is the best ability for both aggro and healing control for Large group or small groups. as it heals and dmg alot.

Soul Barrier is the best one u can get as it is a shield that can absorb up to 1.1mil damage if correctly used. and 1.1mil is alot of damage not taken and also it cannot be reduced below 55k.

oh and i suggest u do not listen to the thread maker as it is clear that he does not know how impactful the stats or talents are. and that wowhead guide is utterly wrong and will only help you fail more then survive

please stop talking you're stupid is showing

INFRACTED: Flaming

[Munkky]

Ok theres a lot of misinformation and thoughts going around here.

On Felblade vs Fel Eruption
Lets ignore pain, gcds, shear, everything. Simply look at the damage.
Using simple math you can calculate that Felblade when casted twice is stronger than a single Fel Eruption on a stunnable target.
On a non stunnable, it takes 3 Felblades to beat a single Fel Eruption.
The base cd of Felblade is 15 seconds and for Fel Eruption its 35 seconds.
This means that you can cast Felblade 3 times (not including Shear resets) in the time frame of a single Fel Eruption.
(The times being, 0, 15, 30)
That is most of why Fel Eruption is useless. Because the damage it provides is terrible when put up against Felblade, especially once you get some Haste.
The 2 second stun from Fel Eruption is rarely used. If you have a target that casts an uninterruptable ability, if it will cause harm to the group you will simply focus that mob down before the rest. Outside of that, proper usage of Sigil of Silence and Sigil of Misery can be used to prevent casts, as well as the stuns of the other 4 people in your party. Also in Mythic+ you can't change your talents, so by going Fel Eruption for that just incase, means you miss out on a lot of pain/damage that you could have gotten from Felblade or FLAME Crash. That is why I say Fel Eruption is a wasted talent.

Fel Eruption is Chaos damage, but they fixed it so that it does proc Charred Warblades as well as Fiery Demise.

On the note of uptimes on Demon Spikes. You can't get higher uptime than on cooldown. If you are using it constantly then you can't get any higher. In order to figure out the uptime, simply take your CD on Demon Spikes, and divide 6 by that number. So say you have 12 second cd. That would be 6/12 = 50% uptime.

As far as Haste goes. It reduces the cd on Felblade, Immolation Aura, Demon Spikes and the GCD. Reduced on the first 2 means more Pain gen. Reduced GCD means more pain gen and easier time casting Soul Cleave when you need it. Reduced Demon Spikes CD means more Demon Spikes. Simple. Also just remember, while you may have high uptime in dungeons, that is in large part to breaks between packs, and if using Fallout+Feed, means that you are getting higher amount of souls. This is not realistic in a raid scenario.

For Soul Barrier, I will simply reference what is in the FAQ.

THE KEY THING TO REMEMBER!!!
Most of the conversations right now are based on players who did not play in Alpha/Beta and thus only have experience in Normal/Heroic/Mythic 0 Dungeons. All of which were full cleared day 1 with sub 800 ilvl. My guides and any information I put out there is based on Alpha/Beta experience, and includes analysis of Mythic+ and Raids. Though in the end, guides are simply suggestions. I can't make you do what is best, but any info I have put out is based on Experience, not only of myself, but of many other top tier tanks. My only goal is to make it as accurate as possible. So if I say that xyz talents are bad, its because I've spent many hours doing math and testing them.