Page 19 of 20 FirstFirst ...
9
17
18
19
20
LastLast
  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by sajin001 View Post
    Ironically, in a recent Dev chat about DH they basically said people looking for a complex class may need to look elsewhere than DH. Keep that in mind when the devs tune the class and make talents built around eyebeam viable again.
    They also said they would launch expansions faster, they said they would not add another hero class after dk, they said 5.4 warlocks was fine, they said they would introduce a "titanpath" system during cata, they said they would add new dance styles, they said you would be able to choose where to place your garrison, they said we would have some big citys in frostfire and shadowmoon valley for horde and alliance...

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezia View Post
    They also said they would launch expansions faster, they said they would not add another hero class after dk, they said 5.4 warlocks was fine, they said they would introduce a "titanpath" system during cata, they said they would add new dance styles, they said you would be able to choose where to place your garrison, they said we would have some big citys in frostfire and shadowmoon valley for horde and alliance...
    So because rather substantial designs didn't make the game adjustments to talents won't? That's a pretty silly premise, especially when you look at the changes that new classes experienced from their launch to subsequent patches.

  3. #363
    Pandaren Monk
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezia View Post
    They also said they would launch expansions faster, they said they would not add another hero class after dk, they said 5.4 warlocks was fine, they said they would introduce a "titanpath" system during cata, they said they would add new dance styles, they said you would be able to choose where to place your garrison, they said we would have some big citys in frostfire and shadowmoon valley for horde and alliance...
    One of your main arguments in this whole thread is that you know what Blizzard wants to do with DH. Now that they're saying something that contradicts your ideas, suddenly it's no good anymore?

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by sajin001 View Post
    So because rather substantial designs didn't make the game adjustments to talents won't? That's a pretty silly premise, especially when you look at the changes that new classes experienced from their launch to subsequent patches.
    And especially when the issues with Havoc are largely numbers and not design. We're not even the only class dealing with this problem to be able to write it off as "well this is what Blizzard intended!"

    Really think people who believe the current build will remain 20% better after the next tuning pass are going to be disappointed. The current standing is the result of some relatively wonky last minute tuning, same as other classes, that overshot on some nerfs and didn't hit the mark on others, that they never followed up on due to how close it was to 7.0 launch and waiting for live test data.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  5. #365
    To start with, I actually adored the crap out of fel rushing and the hectic, Diablo 3-esque hack-and-slash play style it introduced that demanded a high situational awareness and the extremely high skill ceiling it demands. As I cruise through mythics now I'm still really fond of it but months down the road I can see it being an unduly arduous chore to have to maximise uptime on that 4-second buff over the course of a 6-7 min progression fight where you have to pay full attention as well to the (increasingly complicated!) raid mechanics. I like a class that's hard and rewarding to master as much as anyone else, but havoc DH's as they are currently might be poised to be the first class in a raid that burns out its player in progression raiding.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Beace View Post
    One of your main arguments in this whole thread is that you know what Blizzard wants to do with DH. Now that they're saying something that contradicts your ideas, suddenly it's no good anymore?
    Where they said anything that contradicts my ideas? DHs are pretty simple, there is nothing extremely complex , there are no tricky or anti-natural skills or systems, the skills do what they do, that is what simple is, complex is something like demon locks during cata. In short, being simple != being braindead.

    And my point on that last post is: Don't take blizzard's word as a given, the guys go back in their words and/or contradict themselves all the time. What they do says much mor than what they actually say.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezia View Post
    Where they said anything that contradicts my ideas? DHs are pretty simple, there is nothing extremely complex , there are no tricky or anti-natural skills or systems, the skills do what they do, that is what simple is, complex is something like demon locks during cata. In short, being simple != being braindead.

    And my point on that last post is: Don't take blizzard's word as a given, the guys go back in their words and/or contradict themselves all the time. What they do says much mor than what they actually say.
    Would also argue that design direction moving towards the end of the beta contradicts your opinion a bit. For anyone who actually tested and paid attention to official feedback forums, Fel Rush being a core offensive tool was being considered by the actual high tier mythic raiders who were playing with it "awesome, fun, but not sustainable." This is why Fel Rush was then nerfed (just not enough) and its functionality drastically changed, along with Fel Mastery being reworked in its current form to provide the old version of Fel Rush as an option.

    But around this same time, Blizzard overnerfed the mega Eye Beam build because it was massively broken, especially Demonic when used in PvP, and proximity to live server launch resulted in no more classes getting any real tuning until live data could be offered. Some classes got some smaller tuning in the 7.0 launch but Demon Hunters, being that they didn't have all their talents until 110, and classes needing larger tune ups, have had to wait for the upcoming tuning pass that corresponds with raids opening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Would also argue that design direction moving towards the end of the beta contradicts your opinion a bit. For anyone who actually tested and paid attention to official feedback forums, Fel Rush being a core offensive tool was being considered by the actual high tier mythic raiders who were playing with it "awesome, fun, but not sustainable." This is why Fel Rush was then nerfed (just not enough) and its functionality drastically changed, along with Fel Mastery being reworked in its current form to provide the old version of Fel Rush as an option.

    But around this same time, Blizzard overnerfed the mega Eye Beam build because it was massively broken, especially Demonic when used in PvP, and proximity to live server launch resulted in no more classes getting any real tuning until live data could be offered. Some classes got some smaller tuning in the 7.0 launch but Demon Hunters, being that they didn't have all their talents until 110, and classes needing larger tune ups, have had to wait for the upcoming tuning pass that corresponds with raids opening.
    they normally dont tune classes again until after the first raid tier tho.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    they normally dont tune classes again until after the first raid tier tho.
    Actually, you're wrong. They usually try to make last minute tuning adjustments focused on buffs instead of nerfs to go with raids opening. They don't want to shake up the standings or nerf classes out of favor after rosters, artifacts, etc have been locked in for guilds but try to buff lower performers, play with talent tuning, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  10. #370
    I really hope they don't take fel rush out of the rotation. It's so much fun.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelran View Post
    I really hope they don't take fel rush out of the rotation. It's so much fun.
    I think there is room for middle-ground where you could keep Fel Rush in the rotation, but not tie it to a mechanic like Momentum which is bound to prove ridiculously frustrating to optimize at some point or another.

    The layers of complexity added by the current iteration of Momentum isn't matched by many other mechanics introduced to the game so far. We not only have to maintain a 60% uptime on a short 4-second buff several times throughout a fight, but also watch out to make sure we don't go out of a good position into a bad one, don't suffer too much damage loss from a bad VR that might put you too far from a boss, and that we also optimize those 4 seconds of Momentum by maximizing the use of non-Demon Bite abilities.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Peppered View Post
    I think there is room for middle-ground where you could keep Fel Rush in the rotation, but not tie it to a mechanic like Momentum which is bound to prove ridiculously frustrating to optimize at some point or another.

    The layers of complexity added by the current iteration of Momentum isn't matched by many other mechanics introduced to the game so far. We not only have to maintain a 60% uptime on a short 4-second buff several times throughout a fight, but also watch out to make sure we don't go out of a good position into a bad one, don't suffer too much damage loss from a bad VR that might put you too far from a boss, and that we also optimize those 4 seconds of Momentum by maximizing the use of non-Demon Bite abilities.
    To be fair, I do think it's more interesting and arguably should be top dog in regards to our talent balance. I just think the gap shouldn't be AS large as it currently is, nor should Fel Rush be as rotationally amazing as it is currently is for even things like the Eye Beam build, tuning permitting, where it would be more used for repositioning or soul catching.

    One concern I do have though with the current Momentum build is that it's currently amazing at everything. It does cleave, aoe, single target, and mobility all at once which further limits the appeal of things like Felblade or Chaos Blades which are single target only, and does push the Eye Beam build into a weird balance spot.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2016-09-10 at 08:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  13. #373
    They said they don't want players respeccing for every fight, thus the new talent change restrictions. Talents are supposed to be great at both single targets and AE now. Many aren't, but that's a failure in implementation.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Peppered View Post
    To start with, I actually adored the crap out of fel rushing and the hectic, Diablo 3-esque hack-and-slash play style it introduced that demanded a high situational awareness and the extremely high skill ceiling it demands. As I cruise through mythics now I'm still really fond of it but months down the road I can see it being an unduly arduous chore to have to maximise uptime on that 4-second buff over the course of a 6-7 min progression fight where you have to pay full attention as well to the (increasingly complicated!) raid mechanics. I like a class that's hard and rewarding to master as much as anyone else, but havoc DH's as they are currently might be poised to be the first class in a raid that burns out its player in progression raiding.
    Yeah I kinda feel the same way. I really enjoy it even in Mythic Dungeons right now but I can definitely see myself getting fatigued easily doing this playstyle over 6-7+ minute fights. Its one thing to do it in ~2 minute Mythic dungeon fights over a ~30 minute dungeon but doing it over and over again in longer fights over 2.5-3 hour raid nights will get tiring fast.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    They said they don't want players respeccing for every fight, thus the new talent change restrictions. Talents are supposed to be great at both single targets and AE now. Many aren't, but that's a failure in implementation.
    Except most classes have the exact opposite going on in their grids and have to specialize to a degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Actually, you're wrong. They usually try to make last minute tuning adjustments focused on buffs instead of nerfs to go with raids opening. They don't want to shake up the standings or nerf classes out of favor after rosters, artifacts, etc have been locked in for guilds but try to buff lower performers, play with talent tuning, etc.
    so dh will go unchanged until at least after 7.1

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    so dh will go unchanged until at least after 7.1
    Talking to you is like talking to a fucking stove. So desperate to prove your own point that you just ignore shit from every post and cherry pick comments.

    What it means is that the lesser options are likely to see buffs and maybe some tweaking. They just won't go full blown design overhaul or gut the Fel Rush-Momentum build or anything along those lines but the whole "20% gap" is going to change.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2016-09-11 at 06:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Talking to you is like talking to a fucking stove. So desperate to prove your own point that you just ignore shit from every post and cherry pick comments.

    What it means is that the lesser options are likely to see buffs and maybe some tweaking. They just won't go full blown design overhaul or gut the Fel Rush-Momentum build or anything along those lines but the whole "20% gap" is going to change.
    why the actual fuck would they buff a class thats pretty much top shit in most scenarios? why would they buff our talents to give bad players the ability to sit there and spam a 2 button rotation, to then just nerf the shit out of us later?

    use your brain. the logic is, this iteration of dh will remain like this until the next raid tier. we dont need any kind of buffs to our shit talents because then that would make literally every dh talent like it was in the beta. fucking op.
    the 20% gap is there because bads refuse to play the class as it was intended and are getting punished in the form of 20% less dps.

  19. #379
    At this point the thread needs to be closed. There's clearly a wall and people aren't going to change their mind or listen regardless. Been on both sides of the argument in this thread and it's a fucking disaster either way. All that's going to happen is more and more hostility and it's been getting progressively less constructive over the last 10 pages with some trying to have a discussion and others jumping to the no true Scotsman approach or "I like it so fuck you you're all bad" argument.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2016-09-11 at 06:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    At this point the thread needs to be closed. There's clearly a wall and people aren't going to change their mind or listen regardless. Been on both sides of the argument in this thread and it's a fucking disaster either way. All that's going to happen is more and more hostility and it's been getting progressively less constructive over the last 10 pages with some trying to have a discussion and others jumping to the no true Scotsman approach or "I like it so fuck you you're all bad" argument.

    I agree, i made this thread after going from 100-110 in one sitting and then doing a dungeon and it just felt wrong, so i was tired and grumpy at the time^^

    I don't understand the people that are so against an alternative to the fel rush playstyle, especially since it would be behind, just not so far.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •