Unhappy with Warlocks? Use the upcoming Dev Q&A #LegionQA

[Gaidax]

Hey gaidax, I was just wondering what do you think about the current situation in every spec for warlocks? I am a new guy here and just playing for the first time a warlock(destro/demo) and with the whole scandal about the damage...this is starting to worry me.

Destruction, in general, is fine. The more significant issues as I see are - baseline AoE lacking and too many single target vs multitarget talent choices, making it challenging to have the ability to effectively do both at the same time. But one thing is certain, you can pull your weight in current content as Destruction, beaten only by specs, which beat everyone equally badly at the moment.

Demonology and Affliction do need help, obviously with their hysterical ramp up time and they also have some significant baseline weaknesses like Affliction single target and Demonology flow disruption, where Affliction literally has no single target worth mentioning at all, while Demonology is really penalized by movement or various windows of no DPS/interruptions.

[KrazyK923]

Dear friend, they found feedback and told you so, they did not tell you in Q&A "lol? Warlocks have issues? Why nobody told us???", they told you that they read the feedback, they gave you examples of what they seen a lot and gave you insight on that, while telling you first and foremost they are aware of the pressing issues and will act on those they agree with. They asked to focus feedback, because it is difficult to distill real stuff from all the shit. Big fucking drama!

What the f else do you want? That Fuzzycostas drop in his knees and beg for forgiveness in the middle of the bloody stream? Or maybe he would right away upload a bloody patch that fixes EVERYTHING?

Me white knighting? More like trying to be bloody reasonable amongst this torrent of pointing and tantrum here.

If they were unable to understand the basic problems of Warlocks in a year and a half, then they're terrible at their job. This whole nonsense about non-constructive feedback is just excuses on their part. The torrent of hatred only came about after the game actually launched. There were people bitching in beta, sure, but there were plenty of very polite, exceptionally well-written, and constructive threads all over the forums which were just ignored.

Also the fact that he bothered to talk about non-constructive feedback was pretty insulting. I don't care if there are dumbasses talking about how they're quitting. I want to hear about the actual changes they're going to make. Even just going "Oh we're going to fix it!" is bottom of the barrel kinds of responses when compared to how incredibly long Warlocks have had issues.

When its been as long as it has been and the excuse is "I couldn't find constructive feedback" (Funnily enough is a comment they IMMEDIATELY back-pedaled and "clarified" right after it ended and they saw how unprofessional that sounded), then I'm not sure why anybody is surprised some people are upset. I'm not sure how you COULDN'T be upset when its been so long and they've mostly ignored Warlocks in the testing and are now only going "Well we couldn't find it!"

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Blizz do suck at correcting obvious flaws in class design though, this is nothing new. Just look at Shadow, Elemental and Ret throughout the 2 past expanisons.

Just like Locks, the SP community were telling Blizz all thoughout the Beta that our lack of AoE (nonexistant) was unacceptable, and that our lvl 100 talent row was broken (1 talent that basically does nothing, 1 talent that's a Dps decrease over not using anything, and 1 extremely gimmicky CD that fucking kills you when it expires). Blizz didn't care, it still went live like that.

[Gaidax]

When its been as long as it has been and the excuse is "I couldn't find constructive feedback" (Funnily enough is a comment they IMMEDIATELY back-pedaled and "clarified" right after it ended and they saw how unprofessional that sounded), then I'm not sure why anybody is surprised some people are upset. I'm not sure how you COULDN'T be upset when its been so long and they've mostly ignored Warlocks in the testing and are now only going "Well we couldn't find it!"

Mind telling me where in the bloody stream you seen them say THAT?

They clearly said that a lot of "feedback" is trash and some of it is contradicting, is that not true? Really? They do not say "we could not find it lol!". They said they dug in and pulled some useful stuff, despite the fact that most of it trash in my words, which is bloody spot on. Heck they did not even say it that way, but much more polite way which makes me wonder why the fuck people are even triggered at that??

See? You are basically part of the problem - making shit up to stir people into rage which reduces chances of them saying something useful and increases chances of them to uselessly rant. WHY do you do this?

[KrazyK923]

Mind telling me where in the bloody stream you seen them say THAT?

They clearly said that a lot of "feedback" is trash and some of it is contradicting, is that not true? Really? They do not say "we could not find it lol!". They said they dug in and pulled some useful stuff, despite the fact that most of it trash in my words, which is bloody spot on. Heck they did not even say it that way, but much more polite way which makes me wonder why the fuck people are even triggered at that??

See? You are basically part of the problem - making shit up to stir people into rage which reduces chances of them saying something useful and increases chances of them to uselessly rant. WHY do you do this?

Uhh..

Ion went to the Warlock forums on many occasions to read about what Warlocks are upset about, but 95% of the posts aren't constructive feedback and makes it harder to figure out what is the issue. There is also lots of conflicting feedback, where people are unhappy for different and conflicting reasons.

But ok dude. Keep on the white knighting.

No point in continuing with you.

[Baconeggcheese]

Gaidax, in all your white knighting, you're still wrong because there has been constructive feedback on the Warlock play style since the first alpha push.

If they cannot find that information in a year and a half, then they're either so grossly incompetent that they shouldn't be creating an MMORPG or are just lying.

And they listened to soooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOO much of the alpha feedback I couldn't believe it. So much shit was changed directly as a result of that feedback.

Also if you can't see that there's just mountains of shit posts and non-constructive feedback in those mega-threads I don't know what to tell you. Not being able to see that is straigt up willful ignorance.

[ThePhantombox]

But ok dude. Keep on the white knighting.

No point in continuing with you.

Yes, let's quote the second-hand recap instead of the actual video, it must be 100% accurate! Also, where even in your quote does it say they could not find feedback?

[KrazyK923]

And they listened to soooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOO much of the alpha feedback I couldn't believe it. So much shit was changed directly as a result of that feedback.

Also if you can't see that there's just mountains of shit posts and non-constructive feedback in those mega-threads I don't know what to tell you. Not being able to see that is straigt up willful ignorance.

SOOO much? Could you name all of it?

For Destro all I really recall is them changing how Dimension Rift worked several times.

[Amonthar]

Destruction, in general, is fine. The more significant issues as I see are - baseline AoE lacking and too many single target vs multitarget talent choices, making it challenging to have the ability to effectively do both at the same time. But one thing is certain, you can pull your weight in current content as Destruction, beaten only by specs, which beat everyone equally badly at the moment.

Demonology and Affliction do need help, obviously with their hysterical ramp up time and they also have some significant baseline weaknesses like Affliction single target and Demonology flow disruption, where Affliction literally has no single target worth mentioning at all, while Demonology is really penalized by movement or various windows of no DPS/interruptions.

I try to read all your replies as you feel Destruction is in a good place. I have played Destruction since Vanilla except for when Demo was really good during ToT.

I understand how they keep saying to wait for raiding. What about people that don't plan on raiding? I have some baseline issues that could be looked at. Your item level will blow mine away, 797 here, so just look at this as someone who doesn't feel that I currently do jack to contribute to dungeons. For reference, I pull 90k dps with the proper rotation some times but with movement it dips down lower.

Soul shard generation is odd. It feels that they generate in bunches or not at all. Something could be done to stabilize the generation rate.
Why is there a talent to drop the cast time of Chaos Bolt and Incinerate? This should be built in by default. The cast time for Chaos Bolt and Incenerate is way too long.
The damage formula can be looked to where lower item levels can do more damage and increase it at a different rate as your item level goes up. Running dungeons, I feel like I am being carried more than I am helping. It bothers me and I am actually trying and reading and taking suggestions on what to do to better myself to help others.
The spec is too centralized for ST or AoE. Blizzard appears to want us to focus on cleaving as well.
The Doom Guard feels lackluster in damage.
Why can't we cast while moving? Add a penalty of 20% longer cast time to the current spell when you start moving.

[Yemkela]

He is spot on that 95% of those threads are useless and the other 5% is conflicting opinions. Some people complain about the DPS being too low, but then when someone comes in and refutes DPS being an issue, other people jump in and say the numbers aren't the issue but that the mechanics are unfun. The rest of the feedback is suggestions for how to remove all weaknesses from the class.

Meanwhile, Blizz probably has their own data they're looking at, piles and piles of data, that helps them find the issues faster than reading any of those whinefest threads ever will. I'd rather they spend their time going over the actual data instead of trudging through hundreds of pages of anecdotal evidence from unhappy players.

[Gaidax]

SOOO much? Could you name all of it?

For Destro all I really recall is them changing how Dimension Rift worked several times.

Lord of Flames, Mastery (though wish they did not listen to that one), talent placements. That's what I remember and it's not like I was following EVERYTHING.

All the above was changed during Alpha/Beta based on what they got from feedback. Lord of Flames literally based on what I and couple other guys suggested to move it to Summon Infernal.

- - - Updated - - -

But ok dude. Keep on the white knighting.

No point in continuing with you.

And where does it say "I couldn't find constructive feedback", "Well we couldn't find it!"?

See? You are full of shit. You are even getting called out by others, not just me. It's not "white-knighting", it's fucking decency and integrity. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by literally making up shit.

- - - Updated - - -

I try to read all your replies as you feel Destruction is in a good place. I have played Destruction since Vanilla except for when Demo was really good during ToT.

I understand how they keep saying to wait for raiding. What about people that don't plan on raiding? I have some baseline issues that could be looked at. Your item level will blow mine away, 797 here, so just look at this as someone who doesn't feel that I currently do jack to contribute to dungeons.

I can totally understand and I may tell where it is coming from - shard generation, slow spells - baseline it is absolutely true. I myself think that 3 seconds base cast for Chaos Bolt is unreasonable.

That said, with gear and correct traits in the artifact this gets smoothed out a lot - if you get a load of haste, you will suddenly see you have more shards, your spells are fast and with crit to immolate and shard refund traits in artifact, you will suddenly see that you are not really shard starved that much at all.

I also agree that there is too much conflicting focus on AoE OR ST in talents.

With all the above, I can assure you, despite these shortcomings Destruction performs just fine in dungeons and I am sure so will be in raids, but you need to be smart and capitalize on Destruction strengths - very good controlled burst with rifts and amazing cleave - if you do your best to abuse these correctly, you will be doing VERY good.

[Amonthar]

I can totally understand and I may tell where it is coming from - shard generation, slow spells - baseline it is absolutely true. I myself think that 3 seconds base cast for Chaos Bolt is unreasonable.

That said, with gear and correct traits in the artifact this gets smoothed out a lot - if you get a load of haste, you will suddenly see you have more shards, your spells are fast and with crit to immolate and shard refund traits in artifact, you will suddenly see that you are not really shard starved that much at all.

I also agree that there is too much conflicting focus on AoE OR ST in talents.

With all the above, I can assure you, despite these shortcomings Destruction performs just fine in dungeons and I am sure so will be in raids, but you need to be smart and capitalize on Destruction strengths - very good controlled burst with rifts and amazing cleave - if you do your best to abuse these correctly, you will be doing VERY good.

Thanks for the reply, at least I feel I am thinking correctly on this.

The part I bolded should be looked at as well. It feels that if the item does not have haste + something then it is by default lacking badly. Haste appears to be king for Destruction right now. This can be take care of by reducing the cast timers on our spells which would allow for more gearing options.

[Deleted]

Destruction, in general, is fine. The more significant issues as I see are - baseline AoE lacking and too many single target vs multitarget talent choices, making it challenging to have the ability to effectively do both at the same time. But one thing is certain, you can pull your weight in current content as Destruction, beaten only by specs, which beat everyone equally badly at the moment.

I just wish destruction's AOE was different. I'm not overly happy with the resource change to shards vs a perfectly fine and superior ember generation, why that was changed I don't know - but the resource system and mastery I can deal with, even if they seem objectively worse than what we had.

The AOE bugs me though. Once our tanks got geared up enough to start chain pulling packs in mythics it becomes painfully obvious how limiting high cost, static AOE is. You can talent into FnB or you can slow the entire run down by asking the tank to make sure he's not moving at all so your Cata's and ROF's can land and last, but more often than not it feels easier to just run around trying your best to cleave away while the classes that can AOE on the move do so.

Destruction ST / cleave is pretty solid though.
Mastery and resource system are 100% worse than they were imo, but it's the kinda thing you get used to easily unlike some of the other specs more tangible issues.

I'm pretty excited at 3 shards deal, it will make Destruction opener even stronger.

Do we need a stronger opener? I'm already usually topping in the opener when playing destruction, usually start dropping over the long haul.

At the moment it feels like affliction is suffering because it's too focused on it's niche, wouldn't want destruction to end up in a state where it's crazy burst opener is a reason for it to be faulty elsewhere.

[ThePhantombox]

I can't imagine why I would ever ignore such an illustrious poster.

Because you don't have any answers when I make a half decent point? What the fuck do you want me to assume? I say something legitimate and you run away.

[Deleted]

"Destro is fine"

Destro is average as long as you never have to move.

If you could label which bosses you never have to move on, I'd appreciate it.

I'll be waiting.

You talk about people getting out of the MoP/WoD mindset. Do you realize why people are in that mindset? Because they changed the entire spec around Chaos Bolt after Cataclysm. And then proceeded to nerf it every single time they balanced in MoP/WoD. Now we should be focusing on Immolation and pet management?

That's the fantasy for Destruction? The spec with the function of its fucking fantasy in its name? A dot and a pet? What a fucking joke.

Just give us back Cataclysm Destruction. I have no idea why they thought the idea of Conflag being a bursty spell was so anethema to Destruction. When its literally a fire explosion. Which sounds much more "Destruction" than watching something tick away with fire damage while your imp shits out firebolts at it.

Piss right off with your bullcrap dismissal of problems as "hurp oh its just dem panda whiners!"

Also I don't even like Demo (Before or after Legion) but its pretty fucking sad that apparently their spec fantasy is just summoning a bunch of weak imps. Everyone knows the sign of a powerful summoning Warlock in the game is one who just summons the weakest demon over and over again.

It should have been some mechanic where you build up a resource to summon a very powerful demon, like a Pit Lord or a Dreadlord, for a short period of time. Like Chaos Bolt mixed with Void Form. Two separate playstyles that alternate when you your bigfuckingdemon is out. Even the Observer (or whatever other name they gave it) as the 100 talent is pretty underwhelming in terms of Demonic power.

I hit a nerve it seems.

Well, I'm glad you cba about everyone who plays or wants to play something other than a failed fire mage.

And by "fine" you mean "destro is average under ideal conditions"

The only situation where destro really shine sis where you can abuse Havoc and cleave, which means you shine in a niche. We're back to the old problem that if you're trying to PUG you're pidgeonholed into a spec you might not even like, where you have to work comparatively hard to be average, whilst there are three button wonder classes right alongside you in the queue, guess which one a PUG group will take for a fast Mythic run? Hint: them, not you.

And you pointed out part of the problem:the warlock talent system. Taking GoSac means you sacrifice single target to some extent, and this again is not an obstacle for the wonder classes. They just have one build that's is a good-all-rounder, whilst locks have these hideous binary choices and given that most boss fight shave elements of most things, the all-rounder always wins,and is always more desirable.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, getting back to the Q&A...I was actually reasonably satisfied.

The problem was acknowledged (I'd have seriously considered unsubbing if Blizzard was so unresponsive or insensitive to not talk about the warlock issue at all).

The main problems were highlighted: mobility (though that's not going to change, as the philosophy is be tanky not mobile, they are obvously aware that it doesn;t work in something like a Mythic because the abilities will one shot a lock as easy as they do a glass cannon mage); rampup times and how locks are particularly suffering in 5-mans because the "it doesn;t matter much in a raid boss" does not apply). Five mans were specifically mentioned.

The mechanics won't chang emuch until at least 7.1, they never do. But it is evident that the problem is known, it's being acknowledged and that a hotfix is due fairly shortly to at least ameliorate some of the issues

The only big down for me is that this was allowed to go live after is was so glaringly bloody obvous on the Beta.

Lel at failed fire mage. Failed necromancer isn't much better.
Idk how Destro's cleave is a niche when Mythic dungeons are ongoing content and most pulls have at least two mobs. Also idk how this pidgeonholding when Havoc has been a defining ability for Destro since the skills inception.
I switch between GoSac or GoServ depending on dungeon or group. I actually like that compared to the WoD/MoP cookie cutter shit out CBs spec. That was bland at fuck.
The only classes that wreck me on trash are the burst AE melees on big grps of low HP mobs. Not going to get my panties in a twist when I can pull first or second on most bosses/meaty trash.

[Deleted]

can't post on US forum, but posted it on eu

really easy things to do :

1) our 3 min cooldown have to do more damage, and have no shard cost.
ATM they are ridiculous

2) we have to start with 5 shards. 3 could be ok for affli and destru, but demono def needs to starts at 5

3) chaos bolt should always use mastery at the highest value ( or can't be under 50% of that value if always 100% is too high ) . this way, first you correct the low damage of chaos bolt, second you make mastery more desirable

4) afflliction artifact weapon has to pop souls again. The whole gameplay of affliction is to have mobs who die around you. You suppressed the souls but dint think about revamp the whole artifact trait? this is strange
I admit the first iteration of beta, with souls having a lot of hp to kill wasn't the best, but current state is worse.
Perhaps souls appearing and dying over time on their own, or having very few hp, or being instant kill by the artifact weapon skill, just to proc artifact traits

5) demono has to have a total revamp.
For beginning, let's start with little simple things:
instant dreadstalkers
5 shards to begin fights
demonic empowrment as a selfbuff during 15 to 30sec ( up to you) making us summon more powerfull demons as long as we have this buff

And it should be ok

thanks

[Baconeggcheese]

SOOO much? Could you name all of it?

For Destro all I really recall is them changing how Dimension Rift worked several times.

All of it? No I don't have that good of a memory. There was a shit ton of iteration that happened over months, I couldn't possibly remember every change.

Off the top of my head:

Soul harvest used to just give you 5 soul shards.
Reverse entropy originally did not have the .5 second reduction.
Cataclysm, fire and brimstone, and roaring blaze were all on different talent rows.
Mana tap was waaaay the shit stronger to the point where we'd never have taken the other talents.
Lord of flames went through a few iterations.
The affliction artifact soul mechanic was completely different and was changed to verbatim what was suggested in feedback.
Harvester of souls was originally a trait that would randomly make drain soul hit everything with corruption on it.
Wrath of consumption duration was very short originally.
Absolute corruption didn't increase corruption damage.
Demonic empowerment originally only buffed 3 mobs and power trip instead made it buff all mobs.

There was plenty more, just what I can think of. I was actually shocked at the amount of change we saw based on feedback during the alpha, it was far more than I'd ever seen in previous xpacs.

[FoxMaccloud]

Ion went to the Warlock forums on many occasions to read about what Warlocks are upset about, but 95% of the posts aren't constructive feedback and makes it harder to figure out what is the issue. There is also lots of conflicting feedback, where people are unhappy for different and conflicting reasons.

WAHT!?

Well anyways here are some Constructive feedback!

Issues i have with the warlock:

- clumsy gameplay mechanics : which will not be changed until next major updates, if we're lucky
- visual not being updated: aka Green Fire visuals
- lazy talents : taking baseline spells to go in our talents, while other classes got new ones
- unnecessary pruning : bye bye water walking warlock mount, bye bye Dark Soul
- ramp up time : in demonology for example, you have at least 14 seconds before STARTING doing your average damage
- aoe : Destruction was aoe king in Mop, now we have to gimp our solo damage to do aoe when others classes don't have to (hello to you fire mages)
- RNG ressource gathering : a secondary ressource, necessary to our dps rotation tied to RNG (except for Demono)
- RNG mastery : Chaos Bolt, Destruction's big hit spell, now hit like a wet noodle if you're not lucky
- ZERO communication from Blizzard : many of these problems have been said since Alpha and there have been zero response or explanation from Blizzard, hence people getting the feeling their feedback goes in the trash can.

Lastly, I would like to open a discussion here about Metamorphosis. I perfectly know this topic will never be addressed before the end of Legion yet I cannot help but complain about it. Please keep in mind this is just my complaint, not other Warlocks’.
Metamorphosis was so core to the concept of Demonology: it was the way to go for some caster who also lets demonic energies into himself…sometimes falling into their hands like Kanrethad Ebonlocke did. Or like Illidan did in the Vault of the Wardens.
Metamorphosis was brought to us in Wrath of the Lich King and was changed to an active ability in Mists of Pandaria. Throughout the years, we saw plenty of Warlocks using it: Kanrethad (who also invented Dark Apotheosis through that magic), Teron’Gor (in Auchidoun, when he uses the powers of Demonology in normal or heroic difficulty, he uses Metamorphosis), and even the casters in Hellfire Assault (they transform using Metamorphosis at 50% health). And these were Warlocks, not demon hunters. Our Metamorphosis is not the same as the gloriously customized one the Demon Hunters got. It draws from other powers of the Legion.
Furthermore, we are lore wise entitled to use it. It is mentioned in The Legacy of the Masters (part 1) that after the defeat of Illidan atop the Black Temple, Kanrethad brought the secret of this demonic transformation to the council of the six masters…and that’s why we got the ability in Wrath of the Lich King.
So we basically got stripped of a most iconic Warlock ability for the sole purpose of Demon Hunters to have their nice cooldown. Let’s face it: Metamorphosis did not bring more complexity to the spec than it currently has, with all the Demonic Empowerment, Doom, and Demon tracking we must do. And why not have a spec that is harder to master! Its better than the RNG Sh!t we got, since RNG is an aspect that requires no skill nor do we have controll over.
But do you, fellow warlocks, want to hear about the ultimate backstab? While Demon Hunters were already implemented and our Metamorphosis removed, we got to face Gul’Dan at the Broken Shore. And next to him, was an Eredar Sorceress (Lady Keletress)…with Metamorphosis wings. The same model as we’ve always had. Not the Demon Hunter one. And she was a WARLOCK.

So when are we getting beloved Meta back??????


Anyways, Discuss!

[Walrock]

Reads more like a rant instead of valuable feedback.
So, meh...

[Yemkela]

Things like "Lazy talents" and "RNG Mastery" are not constructive feedback. I'm sure they're aware that the mastery has RNG.