1. #5201
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    How is this related to what I said? How am I not calm, it's a perfectly calmly written post. Literally in the post you're quite literally quoting I am speaking about it being fixed within 2 weeks, where is the hyperbole? Maybe you need to calm down, read the posts more carefully to not misjudge the tone.
    It is kind of covering all the posts of yours that I've read here and in other threads. You losing trust in Blizzard, etc, etc.

  2. #5202
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    It is kind of covering all the posts of yours that I've read here and in other threads. You losing trust in Blizzard, etc, etc.
    Ahh I never had trust in Blizzard to begin with(on class balance), it's been years since we've had a decent class balance. I don't agree with their niche style design so much, especially don't agree with how they let mages run wild at the top of the meters as they have done previously, the balance in HFC was fucked due to gear (doom nova, soul capacitor, legendary ring etc) but it just became a massive joke.

    I'm not worried that Warrior will be viable in Legion, it's always viable and it will be fixed if it is needed (other specs often aren't so fortunate). I just don't have faith that it will ever be a stable state of balance. If they don't buff Fury then it's not good enough, that's just how it is. A lot of Fury Warriors will be used in raiding because it's one of the most popular specs, but it needs buffs/improvements.

    I'm happy to play Arms, I played Arms in the last 2 expansions, but it'd be nice to have a desire to play Fury because of what it offers, rather than try to rationalise a reason to play it in spite of where it suffers.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  3. #5203
    Deleted
    I'm debating myself whether I should use fury loot specialization for legendaries simply because I know FR will be nerfed and the moment the specs are equal, I'd rather play fury. Do fury and arms loot tables differ in any way other than the legendaries?

  4. #5204
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Machine View Post
    I'm debating myself whether I should use fury loot specialization for legendaries simply because I know FR will be nerfed and the moment the specs are equal, I'd rather play fury. Do fury and arms loot tables differ in any way other than the legendaries?
    They get different relics, but other than that I haven't noticed any differences.

  5. #5205
    Quote Originally Posted by Machine View Post
    I'm debating myself whether I should use fury loot specialization for legendaries simply because I know FR will be nerfed and the moment the specs are equal, I'd rather play fury. Do fury and arms loot tables differ in any way other than the legendaries?
    We'll see how big the changes are, but I'm not expecting much. They've said in several interviews they don't want to nerf OP specs too hard because of artifacts. They also said the pre-raid tuning will be focused on undertuning specs specifically in the interview (I believe the paraphrase was from OP to still a little OP). So I'm really not expecting more than a 5-8% nerf to the over-performing specs and a 5-10% buff to the underperforming. Hell, Fury might not even be underperforming under their "metrics."

    I do hope they SOMEWHAT equalize the specs though, but not holding my breath. I guess the optimal is a 10% fury swing and 10% arms swing which brings them at least within 10-15% single target rather than 30-40%.
    Last edited by Anbokr; 2016-09-10 at 09:43 PM.

  6. #5206
    Deleted
    I think a real FR nerf may be coming. Afaik, it's the only Arms build that vastly outperforms the rest of the class ST wise, and doesn't cause you to pursue any trait / relic / stat that you wouldn't be aiming for if playing the "standard" arms build. Nerfing this particular talent to the level of the rest of the class builds (or hopefully buffing the others to this level but ... this would be very surprising) shouldn't suddenly force people to switch to fury, or change all their artifact progression.

  7. #5207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Anbokr View Post
    We'll see how big the changes are, but I'm not expecting much. They've said in several interviews they don't want to nerf OP specs too hard because of artifacts. They also said the pre-raid tuning will be focused on undertuning specs specifically in the interview (I believe the paraphrase was from OP to still a little OP). So I'm really not expecting more than a 5-8% nerf to the over-performing specs and a 5-10% buff to the underperforming. Hell, Fury might not even be underperforming under their "metrics."

    I do hope they SOMEWHAT equalize the specs though, but not holding my breath. I guess the optimal is a 10% fury swing and 10% arms swing which brings them at least within 10-15% single target rather than 30-40%.
    5-10% nerfs are pretty harsh to be honest, if you are talking overall nerfs. take away 10% of arms and you take away 30k damage at this point, thats a big nerf imo.
    I would rather buff other specs than nerfing something that is op, and I hope Blizzard sticks to their word for the sake of artifact weapons.
    I leveled up my arms and my fury weapon to the same artifact level (20), so I am sitting here and waiting for the possible nerfs, but I dont think it wont change anything much.
    Btw if we are talking about the biggest burst damage we should not forget sindragosa from DK, it has 5 min CD but it does a crapton of damage.

  8. #5208
    It's big but it just drops arms to 300k, and 10% buffs Fury to 275k. A more acceptable range than 245 vs. 330k lol.

    Like you guys I hope focused rage is the target of the nerf, but I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard just nerfed mortal strike or something dumb, still leaving FR as the de facto best by far but crushing any other build.

  9. #5209
    Quote Originally Posted by Anbokr View Post
    It's big but it just drops arms to 300k, and 10% buffs Fury to 275k. A more acceptable range than 245 vs. 330k lol.

    Like you guys I hope focused rage is the target of the nerf, but I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard just nerfed mortal strike or something dumb, still leaving FR as the de facto best by far but crushing any other build.
    I think using a DPS comparison based on a static patchwerk set duration is terrible for guaging actual performance, especially if there are any mistakes or flaws/bugs in the sims (which is inevitible with so many specs so early in expansion). You can't just take a sim comparison like this and rank the dps as if that is their actual dps value, incredibly flawed way to look at it.

    Fury's dps isn't 245k and Arms dps isnt 330k, because we aren't playing a game where we do set duration patchwerk fights. I think I just get triggered everytime someone posts a simcraft class breakdown and then starts talking about it seriously as if it's actually a representation, or when people start talking about class balance using simcraft (or even worse sites like Noxxic) to compare classes pre raid release.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  10. #5210
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I think using a DPS comparison based on a static patchwerk set duration is terrible for guaging actual performance, especially if there are any mistakes or flaws/bugs in the sims (which is inevitible with so many specs so early in expansion). You can't just take a sim comparison like this and rank the dps as if that is their actual dps value, incredibly flawed way to look at it.

    Fury's dps isn't 245k and Arms dps isnt 330k, because we aren't playing a game where we do set duration patchwerk fights. I think I just get triggered everytime someone posts a simcraft class breakdown and then starts talking about it seriously as if it's actually a representation, or when people start talking about class balance using simcraft (or even worse sites like Noxxic) to compare classes pre raid release.
    I'm not taking it as gospel, but the simcraft numbers aren't meaningless. Arms' single target damage is significantly higher than Fury's and that's all the sim shows. Single target is still extremely important, especially in mythic dungeons where the majority of these bosses are indeed Patchwerk or just have short bursts of adds.

    I think I get equally triggered when people suggest to ignore the simcraft entirely, the simcraft isn't the end all be all but it's an important tool and along with live data it does give a glimpse into a spec's potential dps.

    Even putting the sim aside though, I think everyone that has played both arms and fury can feel and see the difference and it's definitely a 25-35% difference. Arms has the burst AoE to not be handicapped on these dungeon bosses, but yeah, Fury's trash clear is a lot better :/.

  11. #5211
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I think using a DPS comparison based on a static patchwerk set duration is terrible for guaging actual performance, especially if there are any mistakes or flaws/bugs in the sims (which is inevitible with so many specs so early in expansion). You can't just take a sim comparison like this and rank the dps as if that is their actual dps value, incredibly flawed way to look at it.

    Fury's dps isn't 245k and Arms dps isnt 330k, because we aren't playing a game where we do set duration patchwerk fights. I think I just get triggered everytime someone posts a simcraft class breakdown and then starts talking about it seriously as if it's actually a representation, or when people start talking about class balance using simcraft (or even worse sites like Noxxic) to compare classes pre raid release.
    Of course you should not take them completely seriously, but it would be as stupid to completely disregard any sims. They allow you to gauge spec strength's in ST. While not being completely accurate, it's still the best tool we have to see what spec fares the best. And there's currently no doubt that Arms blows Fury out of the water.

  12. #5212
    Quote Originally Posted by Mykir View Post
    I leveled up my arms and my fury weapon to the same artifact level (20), so I am sitting here and waiting for the possible nerfs, but I dont think it wont change anything much.
    That's over 200k artifact power. Do you live in dungeons or am I missing something here?

  13. #5213
    Quote Originally Posted by Jngizu View Post
    Of course you should not take them completely seriously, but it would be as stupid to completely disregard any sims. They allow you to gauge spec strength's in ST. While not being completely accurate, it's still the best tool we have to see what spec fares the best. And there's currently no doubt that Arms blows Fury out of the water.
    Not arguing that Arms blows Fury out of the water because that's not debatable, but when we start going into discussion about using simcraft results and then adding/subtracting percentages to achieve balance I am facepalming pretty hard at what I'm actually reading.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  14. #5214
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Not arguing that Arms blows Fury out of the water because that's not debatable, but when we start going into discussion about using simcraft results and then adding/subtracting percentages to achieve balance I am facepalming pretty hard at what I'm actually reading.
    It certainly isn't as simple as some people think it is, because no, encounters aren't static. However, when evaluating strictly single target, it is fairly accurate, and the adjustments would bring about some better semblance of balance.

    This begets the question, what are the specs balanced for? Should Arms (FR or not) be stronger on single target because Fury has better built in MT tools, or should they be on relatively equal footing on ST, and have their MT tools adjusted separately? For that matter, should everything be adjusted equally, or does that lead to too much homoginization?

    These are the types of questions that players most often ignore when looking at static charts, yet questions that developers most often ask.

  15. #5215
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    It certainly isn't as simple as some people think it is, because no, encounters aren't static. However, when evaluating strictly single target, it is fairly accurate, and the adjustments would bring about some better semblance of balance.

    This begets the question, what are the specs balanced for? Should Arms (FR or not) be stronger on single target because Fury has better built in MT tools, or should they be on relatively equal footing on ST, and have their MT tools adjusted separately? For that matter, should everything be adjusted equally, or does that lead to too much homoginization?

    These are the types of questions that players most often ignore when looking at static charts, yet questions that developers most often ask.
    While that's a good point and I am against homogenization, Blizzard shoot themselves in the foot with artifacts. Sure in 3/4 months this will not matter much as both our weapons should be at the same level but as of right now there will be a big discrepancy between them. That being said I would rather have one strong ST spec and one strong cleave/MT spec than both spec being average at everything.

  16. #5216
    Fury golden talents need some serious work that's the real problem they pale in comparison to Arms.

  17. #5217
    Quote Originally Posted by Jngizu View Post
    While that's a good point and I am against homogenization, Blizzard shoot themselves in the foot with artifacts. Sure in 3/4 months this will not matter much as both our weapons should be at the same level but as of right now there will be a big discrepancy between them. That being said I would rather have one strong ST spec and one strong cleave/MT spec than both spec being average at everything.
    Mmm I think it's pretty easy to keep artifacts together, or atleast within a close enough relative that it won't be the deciding factor in performance. My real concern against the viability of changing specs is spec specific legendaries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by oraz4000 View Post
    Fury golden talents need some serious work that's the real problem they pale in comparison to Arms.
    It's not so much they're weak next to Arms, it's that Arms damage is wrapped up in two, while Fury's are in three. There's also the consideration that Arms are passive effects which are easy to stack for high damage, while Fury's are mostly RNG or Execute-gated.

  18. #5218
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tang0 View Post
    That's over 200k artifact power. Do you live in dungeons or am I missing something here?
    yes. I have 6d play time since launch, and I am basically running heroics with tank bag all day long. Or better said I was. My prot artifact is at 17 too.

    Edit: Forgot one thing: you can also spam the pvp tower WQ. thats 375AP for a quick run through as prot.
    Last edited by mmoca9bcd482cb; 2016-09-11 at 01:10 PM.

  19. #5219
    Deleted
    Raid viability of Fury aside, is it already time to complain about Talent choices? Why would I ever not talent 2/3/1/1/3/3/3 ?
    Inner Rage is SO powerfull! It basically alone increases my DPS from 150000 to 180000 alone. Wrecking Ball is absolutely horrible to put into the rotation when having NOT chosen Inner Rage. The 15% Haste of Frenzy goes to waste when not gearing for 3% Haste. There needs to be *something* that makes having 50% Haste worthwhile. Like having Odyn's Fury's Cooldown be reduced by Haste. THAT would make the whole spec more interesting!

  20. #5220
    Quote Originally Posted by XenonSalbeira View Post
    Like having Odyn's Fury's Cooldown be reduced by Haste. THAT would make the whole spec more interesting!
    That would be both useless and horrible. You need to align your CDs, so you need dragon roar/BC with OF. Having an OF with a cd between 25 & 45 sec is meaningless since you'd sitll wait for that BC window.

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