What if Sylvanas sent the Horde after Greymane as revenge?

[Karrotlord]

Territory seized by the Scourge, territory she inherited from the Lich King.

Her territory is in Quel'thalas.

No, here territory is that of the people she rules, the rightful heirs of Lordaeron. Those that once lived there still do. They just have a new leader. Like it or not, Lordaeron was and always will be the birthright of the Forsaken people.

Yet she utilized monstrous technology and necromancy despite this very same "other Horde leader" being against it.

It is quite clear that she had no regard for whatever any other leader told her, as she openly defied Garrosh and utilized everything he told her not to. Saying she followed orders is not right.

The Forsaken followed other Horde leaders(Garrosh only, to be specific) untill she returned. As soon as she returned, all the monstrous and attrocious things happened.

She only had no regard for Garrosh. Then again so did the other Horde leaders so she's no different in that case. And the only thing she disregarded was in using the blight. Garrosh said necromancy was unnatural but never forbade it.

As for other leaders, she does listen to them. Lor'themar told her not to raise Blood Elves during the Siege of Orgrimmar and she didn't because she respects him.

And speaking of unnatural, monstrous, and atrocious... Who are you to decide these things? What gave you moral authority?

[RedNight at MMOC]

im pretty sure she has atm more important stuff to worry about than an old vengeance hungry wolf.

In the same sense, wouldn't Greymane? The Legion is a much bigger threat than Sylvanas and the Horde, yet he still went after her.

[Deleted]

No, she'd still do that. But only the ones in her territory, which is all she's ever done. All she wants is a stronghold she can safeguard, that being Lordaeron. The only aggression outside of that has been at the behest of other Horde leaders. She has no desire to invade and wipe out the rest of humanity like you said before you backtracked.

Stromgarde.
Hinterlands.

[Mehrunes]

Territory seized by the Scourge, territory she inherited from the Lich King.

Her territory is in Quel'thalas.

So even by your own admission she inherited the territory from its previous owner and it's still somehow wrong?

Yet she utilized monstrous technology and necromancy despite this very same "other Horde leader" being against it.

It is quite clear that she had no regard for whatever any other leader told her, as she openly defied Garrosh and utilized everything he told her not to. Saying she followed orders is not right.

Garrosh didn't tell her not to utilize necromancy so this is just headcanon.

The Forsaken followed other Horde leaders(Garrosh only, to be specific) untill she returned. As soon as she returned, all the monstrous and attrocious things happened.

Speaking of necromancy being monstrous, Prime Designate of Azeroth Odyn disagrees with you. Go on spreading your enlightened teachings about your universal values of nature though.

[Raetary]

In the same sense, wouldn't Greymane? The Legion is a much bigger threat than Sylvanas and the Horde, yet he still went after her.

sylvanas doesnt give a fuck about him.

greymane just wants revenge.
he should focus on the legion, but he doesnt want to.

[Mehrunes]

Liberated from the ones that lived there, by killing and betraying all the humans that helped her liberate it.

She liberated it from a Dreadlord, but don't let the actual story stop you.

And speaking of unnatural, monstrous, and atrocious... Who are you to decide these things? What gave you moral authority?

Odyn acting like any other undead faction before there were undead factions gave Magnagarde that moral authority. Obviously.

[Deleted]

She liberated it from a Dreadlord, but don't let the actual story stop you.




Odyn acting like any other undead faction before there were undead factions gave Magnagarde that moral authority. Obviously.

And then she killed the Humans whom she promised the City. You can't deny that Sylvanas kinda started aggressions against Humanity. Yeah, Garithos was an evil scumbag towards the Blood Elves, but we should learn to seperate different situations. Towards Sylvanas, he never did something wrong. He was the first Human who was willing to work with the Undead.

[MatadorMedia]

she alrdy did 5 years ago

rmembr that undead siege army infront of gilneas

This. The amount of people who have no idea about this quest series in Silverpine is mind boggling. I keep seeing all these "why is Genn so mad" threads ughhhh. Sylvanas invaded Gilneas, killed Genn's son, forced surrender after threatening to murder and raise Crowley's daughter as an undead, and sacked the city. Sylvanas deserves everything bad that happens to her.

[Magnagarde]

And speaking of unnatural, monstrous, and atrocious... Who are you to decide these things? What gave you moral authority?

Well, no one and nothing in particular.. only the though of.. you know, resurrected bones walking around and stitching corpses together being wrong. I simply thought that using an analogy of real life chemical weapons is wrong.

I can't possibly imagine why I thought that there is something wrong with skelettons going around, destroying nature and using chemical warfare on the living.

[Deleted]

The forsaken, undead, necromantic Abominations, even dare to call Gilneans Monsters.

[Magnagarde]

Stromgarde.
Hinterlands.

Hinterlands are Forsaken lands in their manual. Wherever a skeletton comes and shouts "For the Dark Lady!", it automatically becomes Forsaken land, especially if they spill some greenish liquid all over the place. Its basically like hounds taking a leak and marking their territory. You can smell it miles away.

If something happens to live there, it clearly must not resist to stay there.

[Littlepwny]

So you say that Sylvanas would had handled Eyirs Power 100% responsible instead and stopped to use it to kill and resurrect humans?

I'd assume the finale for the Warrior Class Hall would be:

"Slay the Banshee Queen"
"Free Eyir"

(It still probably should have been even if Sylvanas got rekt)

[Mehrunes]

And then she killed the Humans whom she promised the City. You can't deny that Sylvanas kinda started aggressions against Humanity. Yeah, Garithos was an evil scumbag towards the Blood Elves, but we should learn to seperate different situations. Towards Sylvanas, he never did something wrong. He was the first Human who was willing to work with the Undead.

I know that. Though he was still an asshole towards her, but not anywhere near in terms of magnitude as he was towards Blood Elves since by that point he was rather desperate. And while she did start aggression against humanity in form of Garithos it's not really proof of aggression against the entire humanity or her desires to destroy it, since she sent envoys to the Alliance and did nothing against the Argent Dawn/Crusade ever. Likewise, it can't be used as justification for humans to go full war on her at every point since they have no way of knowing that and it could never factor into their reasoning.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing against that, only the part about her liberating it from the poor people that lived there and Magnagarde's usual narration that there's something wrong with Forsaken's control over Lordaeron (like their earlier point on how they seized it from the Scourge as if it was something wrong), i.e. that they are "occupying" it.

[Magnagarde]

I'd assume the finale for the Warrior Class Hall would be:

"Slay the Banshee Queen"
"Free Eyir"

Eyir should've at least shown some gratitude for being freed.

[Littlepwny]

Eyir should've at least shown some gratitude for being freed.

I was really surprised that Eyir doesn't have a more friendly intro for Warriors or member for the Alliance. Talk about oversight...

[minititan]

Well, she already does when she sends Horde players to assault the Warden towers controlled by the Worgen. Though why either faction would want to control these towers eludes me.




They are the tools of the Warchief. She is the Warchief. And Genn attacked the Horde when he attacked the Forsaken at the start of Stormheim already. Alliance starting a war that threatens the efforts against the FREAKING DEMONIC INVASION is a pressing matter.




Helya isn't an Old God minion. She was once manipulated by Loken (wouldn't take much considering what Odyn did to her). Loken also manipulated Thorim against Hodir. Didn't make Thorim an Old God minion until the Ulduar raid (and even then, still manipulated into a state of insanity). There are only few Val'kyr helping us and she most likely wanted to steal their power and not enslave them. And last time I checked Genn attacked first so what you said is entirely irrelevant anyway.




Sylvanas going after Genn after he started a new Alliance-Horde war over his delusions and then put the future of her entire race is petty? Wat? You sure you're not talking about Genn who, once again, started a new war during an ongoing Legion invasion because his confirmation bias clouded his brain and he couldn't fathom the idea of the Alliance sending envoys to the Horde about the Broken Shore (then again, they had all the information needed to dismiss Genn's paranoia at the Broken Shore already) to, you know, carry out his revenge from five years earlier?




And attacking the Forsaken fleet didn't start a war already?




How has Sylvanas fucked things up for Genn in MoP, WoD or the start of Legion? And Sylvanas is the Horde right now. He couldn't pick worse moment to attack her if his beef isn't with the Horde.

You sir. Are a moron.

Infracted.

[CaptainV]

Wat? She started her campaign before Dreadlords approached her, she rejected them and then allowed one Dreadlord to join her after he begged for life.

She agreed to help them kill Arthas while declaring she would do so her own way, but she still took an interest in being involved with their plans if only to get revenge.

Val'kyr have been about both her and Forsaken's future since Cata, but good try. And Helya isn't a Titan.

Shes a keeper, whom are basically Titan watchers, who are basically titans in turn.

Shes also daughter of Odyn, who -is- a keeper, logic.

She only mentions the Forsaken's future every time you see her in Legion, but whatever. And the comparison here has got to be even bigger bullshit than someone calling Helya an Old God minion. Garrosh had no qualms throwing his men to die? He had no qualms turning Orcs into Sha spawns that he couldn't even control at the Divine Bell. Sylvanas specifically states Forsaken are not to be squandered and cares about Forsaken losses on multiple occasions.

She basically threw her troops at Skold-Ashil in an effort to conquer it, and got pissed off when they failed. She also threw her troops wastefully at Stromgarde in an effort to conquer it during Cataclysm and The Hinterlands, both, went badly for her. She makes pretty much every undead swear loyalty to the dark lady upon creation and insists they are greatful for being given a second life. She claims to care about them and their free will but honestly only wants them to serve her.

Garrosh actually promoted, respected and listened to many of his Orc companions and often would do what he could to help them personally in the field. He was -not- afraid to get his own hands dirty at first, only after letting the Dark Horde and the likes of Malkorok in did things start to go sour.

Helya is an asshole, not a villain. Same kind of asshole as Odyn.

What Odyn did to Helya was pretty much a dick move, but that doesnt excuse the monster she became.

So Sylvanas is using a "convenient" ongoing war that the Alliance started as an excuse to wage the same war? "Logic".

She used it as an excuse to use questionable means in conflict while everyone was pinning the hate on Garrosh. She blighted Andorhal beyond repair, she corrupted Hillsbrad to hell, she raised the fallen nephew of Danath trollbane in an effort to conquer Stromgarde and failed. She even captured Koltira simply because he allowed alliance soldiers and civilians to escape during the sacking of Andorhal because she wanted them turned into undead.

Yeah shes a bit of a maniac using a convinent new conflict to experiment on her enemies with the same techniques as her former -re-animator Arthas and the scourge. Shes basically a war criminal.

Mages of Amber Mill left the Kirin Tor in Cata and aided the invading 7th Legion. Hillsbrad has been hostile since vanilla with it being uncertain who started the hostilities and it belongs to Lordaeron which the Forsaken claimed. They pushed their claims, woo, so evil.

The undead claim a land that belongs to the living who have done -nothing- to attack them, yes that seems pretty evil.

The fuck does it matter to her what the Argent Crusade does? The Forsaken aren't bound by what they are doing, the Crusade isn't UN. They Blighted only their part of the WPL and left Argent part untouched. As for Alliance, what the fuck is this shit? Alliance goes to WPL to pick a fight with the Forsaken and to open a new front against them after they lost everywhere else in Lordaeron and Sylvanas is supposed to respect the intrusion?

Andorhal was a rebuilding project, not an invasion, they wanted to recolonise a lost alliance territory and only had a military presence there to protect the workers trying to rebuild the lost land.

She was ordered not to only in Gilneas. The strain of Blight they used in Gilneas and Silverpine has been provided to them by the Horde after they accepted it as weak enough.

She also blighted most of Hillsbrad beyond recognition, and attempted to spread the blight into Alterac which she ultimatley got her ass handed to her for trying.

Because more troops is good in a fight against an enemy with unknown power?

Lor'themar himself outright declares he will kill Sylvanas if she tries, no, its not a good idea especially since it only creates a stronger control of power for the banshee queen and her own personal instabilities.

The 7th Legion perhaps?

Probably, along with Proudmoore.

Context is a thing. Genn using only Gilnean troops (which is incorrect, the expedition is sent by Anduin, 7th Legion takes part and Rogers commands the Skyfire, which in itself isn't a Gilnean asset) doesn't unwar the attack on the Forsaken fleet.

Its a skirmishing force, not the alliance entire military, most of it is a specific task fleet sent to get the Aegis as explained below.

Anduin sends Skyfire with orders to tail the Forsaken fleet.

Uh, no, he tasks them with securing the Aegis and actually asks them to -avoid- a conflict, unfortunatley, he chose Genn and Rogers to -avoid- conflict, two extreme anti-horde individuals with a strong sense of faction patriotism and one specifically lost his son to the Horde's current warchief.

And Anduin is an idiot who'll believe it?

Maybe before he grew a pair, after the comic though, im sure Anduin is a healthy sceptic of people.

Yeah, because undying loyalty to her kingdom is the apotheosis of darkness.

Sylvanas is not interested in her kingdom, shes interested in herself, her kingdom is a means to an end.

Yeah, the other Horde leaders would not agree to a response to Alliance starting a war. Even more "logic".

- Lor'themar was on the verge of leaving for the Alliance during MoP if Jaina hadnt put him off by going cray.
- Baine is basically Anduin's bestie, im fairly sure hes not going to fight him.
- Saurfang pretty much -owes- Varian for letting him take his son away which is the canonical version of events aka: Alliance Icecrown, with no Varian, he basically owes Anduin.
- Gallywix is loyal to money, not the Horde.
- There is no Troll leader.
- Sylvanas isnt exactly in a stable position of power right now.

[Karrotlord]

Stromgarde.
Hinterlands.

Stromgarde was at the behest of other Horde leaders like I said. You're sent to claim Trol'kalar to use against the Gurubashi. It was then that Galen Trollbane was killed and raised. Then it was Galen himself that pressed on Stromgarde, not Sylvanas.

As for the Hinterlands, the Forsaken were sent there to bolster the Revantusk forces after they had their territory encroached upon by the Alliance as well as enemy Trolls. They also set up a research station. Hardly an invasion.

[Theoris]

If she wanted to kill him she could have shot him in the back as he left.

[Mehrunes]

You sir. Are a moron.

Other than this astoundingly constructive contribution, do you have anything valuable to say?

Which of these is wrong then:
-Factions fighting over Warden towers;
-Sylvanas being the Warchief;
-Blood Oath stating that Horde members are the tools of the Warchief;
-Genn attacking the Horde at the start of Stormheim;
-This attack leading to faction conflict later on;
-Faction war during a Legion invasion threatening the success of the fight against the Legion;
-Helya not being an Old God minion;
-Helya being manipulated by Loken against Odyn so he could become Prime Designate;
-Thorim being manipulated by Loken to create a rift between him and Frost Giants;
-Thorim falling under Old God influence only around 3.0 and 3.1;
-There not being a source in the form of a journal (that you find in Azsuna) of a Forsaken captain that accompanied Sylvanas on her mission and as such having intimate knowledge of her plans that says Sylvanas wants to steal the power of Val'kyr;
-Genn not attacking the Forsaken at the start of Stormheim (this is redundant, but I'm being thorough);
-Genn attacking the Forsaken because of Broken Shore;
-Horde betraying the Alliance at the Broken Shore being delusional;
-Sylvanas personally betraying the Alliance at the Broken Shore when she only followed orders being delusional;
-Genn putting the future of Forsaken in jeopardy by preventing Sylvanas to get more Val'kyr;
-Genn starting a new war between the Horde and the Alliance;
-Genn suffering from confirmation bias and jumping to conclusion when Alliance could see what was going on the Horde side already at the Broken Shore and had spies in Kalimdor that gathered more information after it;
-There being no diplomatic exchange between the factions after Broken Shore;
-Alliance having way to gather information about Horde's situation at the Broken Shore;
-Genn carrying his revenge from five years earlier (OK, this could be closer to four);
-Attacking a military of another faction being an act of war;
-Sylvanas doing nothing against Genn during MoP and WoD;
-Blood Oath of the Horde putting extreme emphasis on the position of the Warchief in the Horde and giving that position pretty much absolute power;
-Genn carrying his vengeance against Forsaken being a stupid idea if he doesn't want to pick a fight with the rest of the Horde at the very same time as she became a Warchief.

Go on, enlighten me.