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  1. #161
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Again, you do not understand, please try to understand.

    The point is very very simple - the biggest claim against mastery is that you supposedly can get screwed up by low roll during key moment of encounter and as such Versatility which mathematically is worse than Mastery is supposedly better because it provides stability.

    Our counterpoint is simple - just as you can get indeed screwed up by Mastery, so can happen with trinkets, crits and just about bloody whatever RNG existing in your damage output. So saying THIS is the reason for Mastery being worse than Versatility simply does not fly, it is a very weak reason.

  2. #162
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Again, you do not understand, please try to understand.

    The point is very very simple - the biggest claim against mastery is that you supposedly can get screwed up by low roll during key moment of encounter and as such Versatility which mathematically is worse than Mastery is supposedly better because it provides stability.

    Our counterpoint is simple - just as you can get indeed screwed up by Mastery, so can happen with trinkets, crits and just about bloody whatever RNG existing in your damage output. So saying THIS is the reason for Mastery being worse than Versatility simply does not fly, it is a very weak reason.
    That made no sense at all. RNG can screw you up, just like you admit. Therefore it IS a good, valid reason for Mastery being worse than Versatility, as long as their average dps values are very close.

  3. #163
    *le sigh* this is what happens when you play devil's advocate... i actually don't give a damn who chooses what or if I can convince a single person who doesn't agree with me to change his mind. But the argument originally was this: don't take mastery because there's an RNG aspect to it, so when you have a priority add you need to kill, you could end up with a pull that wipes you because a destro lock with high mastery does 300k less dmg than expected and therefore doesn't kill an add, and therefore you wipe, and therefore mastery sucks.

    The counter argument is simply that there are so many aspects of RNG in this game. The trinket was just one example. Of course you can play around procs and increase your overall dps, but that is not relevant to the argument that was presented for the pro-versatility camp. It's like telling a mage he shouldn't take crit because there's an RNG aspect to it, or not using an rppm trinket because it might not proc when you need it most. On top of that, I'm saying 99 times out of 100 when that add doesn't die, it's not because your chaos bolt rolled the lowest mastery proc. That's like blaming someone else for their hardest spell not criting. If you dig through the log of a failed burst window, you can probably fault more playstyle type things such as slow target swap, being out of position, not saving resources properly, not using optimal sequence of abilities, not swapping your pet, not pre-positioning your pet, etc etc etc. All those things are the real reasons why a raid fails to kill an add on time.

    So from whatever math is above, sims are saying mastery is what like 7% better than versatility? Negligible right? So if you have an rppm trinket sim 7% higher than a stat stick trinket, do you definitely take the stat stick because your rppm might not proc during a crucial phase? That's certainly a good argument, and I'm all for you doing you, but that's the analogy I'm trying to make.
    Last edited by Moruff; 2016-09-10 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #164
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    We can actually fix/specify your trinket example so that it more closely corresponds to vers vs. mastery. Lets consider a very particular rppm trinket: one that doesn't proc any buffs nor have any passive stats but instead occasionally rppm-blasts the target for X damage. You have a choice between this and a passive stat trinket which yields the same overall damage increase (on average). Which one would you use?

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by blackops2008 View Post
    I'm needing an advice...

    I did see a nihilum warlock using channel demonfire + GOSAC since each hit of channel demonfire has a chance to proc demonic power which is great for aoe trash mobs from mythic dungeons.

    I'm wanting to know if in a bossfight i priorize to use channel demonfire over waiting to get shards for chaos bolt to use it with erradication debuff or i should ignore it and use on cooldown.

    And also, which is the opening sequence recommended?

    I'm using Incinerate > immolate > doomguard > 2x dimensional rift > conflagrate > 3 incinerate > conflagrate > chaos bolt > channel demon fire
    Asked the same question , and someone suggested to use Channel Demonfire on cd and it takes 2nd priority after immolate. and for it to procc Demonic Power, are you sure it's not the CDF first bolt tick only ?

    Edit:Just to be clear, i don't know the procc chance for Grimor of Sacrifice, nor if it has an internal cooldown.
    Last edited by Breaque; 2016-09-10 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #166
    I'm having the problem where I have all my relic slots filled with "+8% chance for immolate to crit" so I have +48% chance to crit + my regular crit % that I am addicted to spamming chaos bolts that I pass on other relics that would increase my weapon ilevel significantly.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I'm having the problem where I have all my relic slots filled with "+8% chance for immolate to crit" so I have +48% chance to crit + my regular crit % that I am addicted to spamming chaos bolts that I pass on other relics that would increase my weapon ilevel significantly.
    Relic item level what's important. think of relic ilvl as a main stat and trait's as secondary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    We can actually fix/specify your trinket example so that it more closely corresponds to vers vs. mastery. Lets consider a very particular rppm trinket: one that doesn't proc any buffs nor have any passive stats but instead occasionally rppm-blasts the target for X damage. You have a choice between this and a passive stat trinket which yields the same overall damage increase (on average). Which one would you use?
    I can see why would you compare it with a 20 sec buff rppm. since most trinkets in legion do[ burst damage on procc ]. otherwise it's a far fetched comparison with Destro mastery.
    Last edited by Breaque; 2016-09-10 at 10:51 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Breaque View Post
    Relic item level what's important. think of relic ilvl as a main stat and trait's as secondary.



    I can see why would you compare it with a 20 sec buff rppm. since most trinkets in legion do[ burst damage on procc ]. otherwise it's a far fetched comparison with Destro mastery.
    Yeah I get that, but 60% chance of soul shard per tick is like crack cocaine!

  9. #169
    Regarding the gearing section, what trinkets should I be aiming to get and which to avoid?

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Yeah I get that, but 60% chance of soul shard per tick is like crack cocaine!
    The poster who answered you is asserting there's a blanket rule. There isn't. Sometimes the ilvl upgrade will be better, sometimes it won't be. It depends on the dps delta between the traits to be traded.

    So for your case if the choice was to go from immo crit to immolate dmg trait it's probably worth taking a relic even 5 ilvls (~1 weapon ilvl) higher. But if you were trading immo crit for a drain life trait you may need the relics to be 15ilvls (3-4 weapon ilvls) higher to make it worth it (at a pre-raid overall gear level). Ymmv for specifics of your setup. These are actually the types of questions sims tend to be very good at answering

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    That made no sense at all. RNG can screw you up, just like you admit. Therefore it IS a good, valid reason for Mastery being worse than Versatility, as long as their average dps values are very close.
    If the difference between whether or not you can handle a mechanic / kill an add etc is hinged on whether or not an individual member of your raid is getting what is effectively a crit, there's a larger problem at play.

    Multistrike could cause a single spell to do 30 to 60% more damage depending on procs, and this was never an issue and no one advocated taking vers over multi.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Yeah I get that, but 60% chance of soul shard per tick is like crack cocaine!
    lol, i feel you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    The poster who answered you is asserting there's a blanket rule. There isn't. Sometimes the ilvl upgrade will be better, sometimes it won't be. It depends on the dps delta between the traits to be traded.

    So for your case if the choice was to go from immo crit to immolate dmg trait it's probably worth taking a relic even 5 ilvls (~1 weapon ilvl) higher. But if you were trading immo crit for a drain life trait you may need the relics to be 15ilvls (3-4 weapon ilvls) higher to make it worth it (at a pre-raid overall gear level). Ymmv for specifics of your setup. These are actually the types of questions sims tend to be very good at answering
    It is common sense to rule out utility trait's , hence why i said "secondary stat's" not minor stats, i.e avoidence, speed,etc.
    And yes, sims net's the better choice.
    Last edited by Breaque; 2016-09-11 at 01:23 AM.

  13. #173
    The itemization is so shit. I have a warforged ring at 810 with haste mastery and another haste/mastery ring at 779. The 810 ring has 300 less haste. Like, I get it that not every item will have perfect stats, but I feel like that's not fitting with the design philosophy. I feel like if there's two items with two stats, the higher item level item should have higher stats. After years of them telling us that ilevels and gear choices should be intuitive, they spring this bullshit on us.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure I read this in the guid, but, just double checking, you can spam Rain of Fire and it stacks?
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  14. #174

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    We can actually fix/specify your trinket example so that it more closely corresponds to vers vs. mastery. Lets consider a very particular rppm trinket: one that doesn't proc any buffs nor have any passive stats but instead occasionally rppm-blasts the target for X damage. You have a choice between this and a passive stat trinket which yields the same overall damage increase (on average). Which one would you use?
    I'd take whichever sims higher, which seems to be mastery.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    If the difference between whether or not you can handle a mechanic / kill an add etc is hinged on whether or not an individual member of your raid is getting what is effectively a crit, there's a larger problem at play.

    Multistrike could cause a single spell to do 30 to 60% more damage depending on procs, and this was never an issue and no one advocated taking vers over multi.
    Thank you, this is a very concise way of saying what I awkwardly wrote too much about.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwtape View Post
    The itemization is so shit. I have a warforged ring at 810 with haste mastery and another haste/mastery ring at 779. The 810 ring has 300 less haste. Like, I get it that not every item will have perfect stats, but I feel like that's not fitting with the design philosophy. I feel like if there's two items with two stats, the higher item level item should have higher stats. After years of them telling us that ilevels and gear choices should be intuitive, they spring this bullshit on us.

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure I read this in the guid, but, just double checking, you can spam Rain of Fire and it stacks?
    After getting nothing but high mastery and versatility rings (and neck...) from mythics and heroics, which made me feel like I didn't care which was worse, since both stats are annoying, I cheered myself up with a BoE haste ring from the AH. Made me feel better anyway.

    Most people here will be be playing Destro/Demo for raiding. At what level do people recommend putting AP into the off-spec, whichever they consider the offspec to be? Thanks.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwtape View Post
    The itemization is so shit. I have a warforged ring at 810 with haste mastery and another haste/mastery ring at 779. The 810 ring has 300 less haste. Like, I get it that not every item will have perfect stats, but I feel like that's not fitting with the design philosophy. I feel like if there's two items with two stats, the higher item level item should have higher stats. After years of them telling us that ilevels and gear choices should be intuitive, they spring this bullshit on us.
    There are, actually, items with worse secondary stats rating then the ones you can buy for the invasion cristals (i saw a ring 810 with less Haste and Mastery then one ring 700). This makes me wonder to where blizz is balancing the stats...

    For ex., with my alt DK lv100, without artefact, i was ambushed by a lv110 elemental shamy, and i was able to put a serious fight, something never happened before, no only for the stats, but for the level gap too.

    I actually thing this is a good way to change the game, because there is so much old content we dont do anymore for no be worthy... Timewarp, transmorg, etc., all this is just a way to make that old content count again, when this would never really happened if they would used a stats curve with a lot of minor value (something like the pre-renewal Ragnarok Online).

    Well, enough with the offtopic... I have a doubt, our pet damage, as if buffed by Soul Harvest, can someone tell me if it buff dimmensional rift damage? IIRC, i saw a blue post once saying it would, but only one of the three portals, but i dont had been able to tell with one.

  18. #178
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moruff View Post
    I'd take whichever sims higher, which seems to be mastery.
    I see you chose to avoid the question. OK.

    Anyways, the majority of warlocks who give feedback strongly dislike the new destro mastery. This dislike is not something that will fade away, people will not eventually just swallow it. More than a year of un-waning criticism proves this. So, either Blizzard fixes destro mastery or they will keep receiving multi-thousand-post long angry threads on the warlock forums and massive amounts of angry warlock posts in their "general feedback" threads as well. Even though Blizzard seems quite clueless about the state and issues of the warlocks atm, they at least recognized in their Q&A the fact that destro mastery is generally disliked. This is the first step. At least one of the destro issues is on their radar now (and it only took 1+ years of feedback). Of course they are still in their stubborn/defensive "ignore the problem maybe it will go away" phase, but eventually they will have to give in. This one doesn't go away.

  19. #179
    Why are you guys complaining about RNG on adds. You won't be able to get a CB cast off anyway before they die.
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  20. #180
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    I see you chose to avoid the question. OK.

    Anyways, the majority of warlocks who give feedback strongly dislike the new destro mastery.
    There's a difference between disliking it and letting it skew your gearing.

    I hate the new mastery system, but I wouldn't let that change how I (or rather, the more mathematically skilled theorycrafters) weigh stats up against each other. If mastery is fractionally better than versatility then I wouldn't start gearing versatility just because I dislike our mastery.

    It's a subtle unpleasantness to me, not something you actively play around. That's one of the reasons that I think it's the lesser of the classes problems. I wish they hadn't done it, but at least it's not something that you're usually interacting with or noticing unless you go looking for it. There's a world of difference between destro mastery and blatantly obnoxious stuff like Soul Effigy etc that are impossible to ignore.

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