Can someone explain Flame On to me please

[Deleted]

Can someone please explain to me why exactly flame on is supposed to be so increadibly amazing?

All I can find is that if you incorperate it into your combustion rotation it is somehow amazing, but I don't really see the difference. Without it I can also fairly easily maintain the Pyro spam during my combustion, so what exactly does it do that makes it so increadibly much better? The most I can make of it is that occasionally (like once in every 10-20 combustions) I'd like 1 more fire blast for 1 more pyro in the last second of combustion and flame on could give that. But to call that amazing seems to be stretching it a bit.

Also, it seems borderline useless outside of combustion. Since you can't use it while casting you need to interupt whatever you're doing to use it. But more importantly, it's only really usefull if you have a heating up proc and have more than ~2 seconds of CD left on fire blast, since if it's less than that you can fit it in with your next fireball cast, which doesn't happen all that frequently either.

So all in all the best I can make of it is that it might effectivly give me a handfull of extra pyro's over the course of an average bossfight. But that isn't exactly mind blowingly amazing, and controlled burn looks like it'd do the same, and over the course of an entire bossfight the difference in reliability is neglible. So why do all the guides keep going on and on about how this is somehow the best talent to have ever existed?

[Biomega]

Since Fire Mage is all about cooldown usage and stacking, having a CD that plays perfectly into your major DPS gain (Combustion) seems pretty obviously strong to me. What would you be doing during Combustion without 2 extra FBs? Scorch to fish for HU? That sounds like it would waste buffed Pyro hits.

Outside of Combustion, Flame On isn't AMAZING, but it's still fine. Without Kindling you can squeeze an extra in when you have nice procs or buffs (like trinket or RoP), with Kindling it's admittedly a bit awkward. Still, though: more Pyros during Combustion.

[looorg]

As you have noted it is mainly to make sure that more or less every cast under combustion is a pyro. It's to prevent unlucky streaks more or less. You combust - use your blasts and then trigger Flame On so you can keep going for a few more. That said if you are standing next to the mob using Phoenix Flames works to. So you could live without it. As you get more and more crit the usefulness of Flame On will probably diminish greatly.

Get a heat up - Combust - Blast - Pyro - Blast - Pyro - Flame On - Blast - Pyro - Blast - Pyro .... weave in a phoenix flame etc there to if you want and are close enough etc.

Beyond that I find it quite useful for questing etc even out of Combustion. You hit blast multiple times to trigger a free cast of Flamestrike etc. That is great for tagging mobs and for tagging large amounts of mobs during the Tower-PVP quests to quickly tag lots of mobs that someone else is killing.

[Biomega]

As you get more and more crit the usefulness of Flame On will probably diminish greatly.

Could you explain why? Combustion is auto-crit and translates all crit into mastery, I don't see that affecting the value of Flame On at higher crit levels. Flame On's main use is the Combustion window, everything else is almost irrelevant in the face of that (and indeed with Kindling data suggests to just let Flame On sit unused rather than not have it up for Combustion).

[Deleted]

Even during combustion I don't find it amazing. Chaining Pyro's works fine with basic fire blasts, phoenixes, the crits from the pyro procs. Especially with Pyromaniac and controlled burn alongside it. As I said, I only really have it like once in say 20 combustions that I end up having to cast fireball/scorch for a final pyro, and 1 extra pyro isn't exactly going to make a mindblowing difference that will negate the handfull of extra pyro's controlled burn would give outside of combustion.

Basicly I only see it being "amazing" if your fight consists of just seconds of combustion. So I'm confused why people hail it as the best ever.

[Zanaku]

Well the first thing I would say is "Is anything else on that tier really worth it either?" The other 2 talents seem kinda lame, except certain niche uses with Blast Wave.
Secondly, I think Flame On is good for many other reasons, and all those reasons together make it superior to the other 2. So other than, the obvious synergy with Combustion.

It Also Provides:
- More Pyro's our highest damage spell
- More Mobility, through more fire blasts AND more Pyro's
- More Damage, through Pyro's chance to Critically Hit (Critical Mass applies a 1.1 multiplier to Pyroblast not Blast Wave)
- More Crits lead to bigger Ignites (More Damage Single and AoE/Cleave)
- More Fireblasts also keep your Pyretic Incantations Gold Trait buff up longer.

So I would say for those reasons.

[D3athsting]

Well the first thing I would say is "Is anything else on that tier really worth it either?" The other 2 talents seem kinda lame, except certain niche uses with Blast Wave.

this, controlled burn is probably the shittiest mage talent among all specs, i suspect it will be buffed soon as nobody uses it, i tried it for a random hc and my dps dropped greatly...

[smaktat]

Even during combustion I don't find it amazing. Chaining Pyro's works fine with basic fire blasts, phoenixes, the crits from the pyro procs. Especially with Pyromaniac and controlled burn alongside it. As I said, I only really have it like once in say 20 combustions that I end up having to cast fireball/scorch for a final pyro, and 1 extra pyro isn't exactly going to make a mindblowing difference that will negate the handfull of extra pyro's controlled burn would give outside of combustion.

Basicly I only see it being "amazing" if your fight consists of just seconds of combustion. So I'm confused why people hail it as the best ever.

You're not taking advantage of FB being off the GCD. Essentially FO will always be a supreme talent as you'll coordinate Combustion with 4 FBs, making it 4 Pyros in 4 seconds versus 4 Pyros in 8 seconds when you have to Phoenix Flame.

Cast sequence with timers for optimal play:

1. (Assuming Heating Up) Combustion > Fire Blast > Pyro (1s)
2. Fire Blast > Pyro (1s)
3. Flame On > Fire Blast > Pyro (1s)
4. Fire Blast > Pyro (1s)

Total time: ~5s (rounded up, accounting for client/server lag)
Sub-total Pyros: 4
Total Pyros: 4
Pyros per second: 4

This gives you about another 4-5s to get your final rotations in, which would be:

1. Phoenix Flame (1s) > Pyro (1s)
2. Phoenix Flame (1s) > Pyro (1s)

Total time: ~9-10s
Sub-total Pyros: 2
Total Pyros: 6
Pyros per second: 2

At this point Combustion should be finished and so should your first RoP. You'll have a 3rd Phoenix Flame to use as well as another Fire Blast just coming off CD. In the best / most fortunate scenario, the previous Pyro gave you a Heating Up so you can Rune of Power > Phoenix Flame > Pyro (get lucky again for Heating Up crit) > Fire Blast > Pyro.

and 1 extra pyro isn't exactly going to make a mindblowing difference

It totally will when you have 5 stacks of Pyretic Incantation and Phoenix Reborn to enhance the Ignite damage. If that Pyro crits you're talking 500k+ dmg at iL840 for a single cast. Don't underestimate the importance 50-100k damage makes. That's exactly how you're going to achieve 4-500k+ DPS burns. If you're not doing extremely well during your CD phase, you'll lose on the damage meters for sure.

You need to look at your damage breakdown, pay more attention to individual damage of your spells and create a better idea for yourself of how high DPS is achieved. Meaning, if you plan to do 250k DPS sustained then you'll have to literally find a way to do 200+ damage each individual second. Kinda hard when your Fireball cast is 1.9 seconds and does not hit for 200k.

[Deau]

You probably just underestimate the dps difference of phoenix flame vs pyro during combustion.

Their tooltip diff is relatively small but pyro gets double ignite benefit and you have like 50-80% ignite during combustion. Plus, that is 2 extra off-gcd fire blasts thrown into the combustion window.

[Deleted]

You're not taking advantage of FB being off the GCD. Essentially FO will always be a supreme talent as you'll coordinate Combustion with 4 FBs, making it 4 Pyros in 4 seconds versus 4 Pyros in 8 seconds when you have to Phoenix Flame.

....
Total time: ~9-10s
Sub-total Pyros: 2
Total Pyros: 6
Pyros per second: 2
....

Yea.. except that with controlled burn I'm pulling out 7 pyro's consistently anyway, so it isn't an increase. Though Flame on usually gives me another Pyro after combustion due to having an extra spare fire blast. But again, that's not all that impressive..

Admittadly I'm nowhere near amazingly geared, but unless pyro scales absurdly well that one cast really isn't going to cut it. It might be what's needed to put you on top of the charts, but if this is what's needed the race is pretty close to begin with.

[Biomega]

I'm a bit confused as to what we are arguing about here. Flame On is the most DPS gain from that talent row. Yes it's not omg +100,000dps but it's more than the alternatives. Unless anyone has data suggesting otherwise? We do have plenty of sims with FO coming out ahead.

[smaktat]

Yea.. except that with controlled burn I'm pulling out 7 pyro's consistently anyway, so it isn't an increase. Though Flame on usually gives me another Pyro after combustion due to having an extra spare fire blast. But again, that's not all that impressive..

Admittadly I'm nowhere near amazingly geared, but unless pyro scales absurdly well that one cast really isn't going to cut it. It might be what's needed to put you on top of the charts, but if this is what's needed the race is pretty close to begin with.

You're getting extremely lucky and probably have not considered a longer fight. FO guarantees Pyros, CB is pure RNG. There's no reason not to use FO.

We can break this down mathematically if you want. FO does give more Pyros per minute than CB does.

Even without math, the largest benefit of FO over CB is CB has a pretty damn good chance to munch Pyros. FO, again, guarantees that doesn't happen by giving us control over RNG.

I'm a bit confused as to what we are arguing about here. Flame On is the most DPS gain from that talent row. Yes it's not omg +100,000dps but it's more than the alternatives. Unless anyone has data suggesting otherwise? We do have plenty of sims with FO coming out ahead.

Agreed. Gotta learn to have faith in those who have spent many hours researching for us. While some points are well made against their suggestions, others are just insulting. OP's is kinda more on the insulting side. It shows he hasn't really looked into FO as much or played enough of the spec yet.

[LordAmbrosia]

Yea.. except that with controlled burn I'm pulling out 7 pyro's consistently anyway, so it isn't an increase

No you aren't. If you hit Combustion with a natural hot streak (aka full charges of FB and PF remaining, which isn't even recommended but for your sake...), FO guarantees 7 combusted pyroblasts. CB maths out to just above 5.5 expected pyroblasts. Either you have ungodly amounts of haste, or you are just wrong.

[Deleted]

No you aren't. If you hit Combustion with a natural hot streak (aka full charges of FB and PF remaining, which isn't even recommended but for your sake...), FO guarantees 7 combusted pyroblasts. CB maths out to just above 5.5 expected pyroblasts. Either you have ungodly amounts of haste, or you are just wrong.

Yet somehow I am. Also, since my gear is still crap, no I don't have ungodly amounts of haste.

- starting hot streak
- fire blast
- second hot streak
- second fire blast if a natural hot streak, otherwise phoenix
- third hot streak
- Phoenix
- fourth hot streak
- Second fire blast if you didn't have a natural hot streak cuz by now it came of CD, otherwise second Phoenix
- fifth hot streak
- if neither pyromaniac or CB gave an extra proc sixth Phoenix, otherwise sixth pyro.
- sixth hot streak

Chances of at least 1 CB/pyromaniac proc in 6 hot streaks under combustion ~66%. so this averages to 6.66 hot streaks... unless I'm doing something particularly weird somewhere...

[fearist]

youre also wasting GCDs casting PF therefore wasting your rune of power, stop trying to be a hipster please. flame on is the best for a reason, learn to use it better.

[Ham on Rye]

Get a heat up - Combust - Blast - Pyro - Blast - Pyro - Flame On - Blast - Pyro - Blast - Pyro .... weave in a phoenix flame etc there to if you want and are close enough etc.

Question: Why would you cast Combustion before the Fire Blast instead of after it? Seems like a waste of a GCD during Combustion casting a Fire Blast, when you might get another Pyro at the end of it instead.

[Deleted]

youre also wasting GCDs casting PF therefore wasting your rune of power, stop trying to be a hipster please. flame on is the best for a reason, learn to use it better.

Then explain to me the actual reason instead of throwing around ad hominems.... Show me why it's better, and by how much. Cuz so far all the anwser given are just an echo chamber of icy veins with no actual explenation...

[fearist]

http://i.imgur.com/pK6MVhd.png
you can choose to use it or not, doesnt affect me, not my job to teach new players everything with in depth details

[SirReal]

Then explain to me the actual reason instead of throwing around ad hominems.... Show me why it's better, and by how much. Cuz so far all the anwser given are just an echo chamber of icy veins with no actual explenation...

he did explain the reason....and you quoted it. You are wasting GCD's, in turn costing you Pyro casts. It's really simple.

You have almost left no alternative other than ad hominem. It's OK to disagree, but don't be disagreeable.

Cheers

[smaktat]

Yet somehow I am. Also, since my gear is still crap, no I don't have ungodly amounts of haste.

- starting hot streak
- fire blast
- second hot streak
- second fire blast if a natural hot streak, otherwise phoenix
- third hot streak
- Phoenix
- fourth hot streak
- Second fire blast if you didn't have a natural hot streak cuz by now it came of CD, otherwise second Phoenix
- fifth hot streak
- if neither pyromaniac or CB gave an extra proc sixth Phoenix, otherwise sixth pyro.
- sixth hot streak

Chances of at least 1 CB/pyromaniac proc in 6 hot streaks under combustion ~66%. so this averages to 6.66 hot streaks... unless I'm doing something particularly weird somewhere...

- starting hot streak
- starting HU

At the beginning of a fight you don't have HS. Adding it here is bullshit to enhance a point that isn't true to falsely enhance your position. If you wait for a HS before using Combust or any other CDs, there's probably a chance you've munched a crit anyway with that awful talent or you're waiting too long to use Combust.

The situation isn't nearly as optimistic as what you could do with FO since you're waiting for RNG instead of choosing when to use CDs. Nothing like putting a CD on the backburner for Crit procs eh? This is what we did in every other expansion as fire. FO is here to prevent this.

I know you're not forcing a HS either as your rotation below shows all of your HS forcing abilities are off CD.

I've added a PF cast for you to turn what should be a HU charge into a HS.

- Phoenix Flame 2/3 remaining > [HU] (Not counting GCD as I expect you to not be retarded enough to cast the HU before Combust but hey with hipsters like yourself thinking metas don't apply to your special self then hell maybe I shouldn't put it past you)
- first HS (1s GCD) > [HU]
- fire blast 1/2 remaining
- second hot streak > [HU] (1s global cast for PB)
- second fire blast if a natural hot streak, otherwise phoenix (1s global for PF) > 0/2 FB reamining

Here's where CB really sucks. You can be in 1 of 2 situations. Either you're Heating Up or CB proc'd and you munched a HU for a HS. Optimally, you want CB to proc when you don't have HU or HS.

- third hot streak (1s global for PB) > [HU]
- Phoenix 1/3 remaining (1s global for PF) > [HU]
- fourth hot streak (1s global for PB) > [HU]

With Flame On you can have 4 Pyros in 4s and still have 2 charges of PF left.

With this build, in 6s you have 4 Pyros and and 1 charge of PF.

- Second fire blast if you didn't have a natural hot streak cuz by now it came of CD, otherwise second Phoenix 0/3 remaining, (1s GCD) > [HU]

Ok, first FB is a 12s CD so there's no way that happened. We're only 4s in. You'll have to PF instead.

- fifth hot streak (1s GCD)

- if neither pyromaniac or CB gave an extra proc sixth Phoenix, otherwise sixth pyro.

Why not. Let's throw your 1/10 spell cast chance in here and say you got a proc by now. Last PB gave a free PB.

- sixth hot streak > [HU] (1s GCD)

Combust should be over by now. You probably missed the guaranteed Crit on that last Pyro since you end up tossing it out around 9.3s. Remember your latency isn't at 0ms either, so you'll have to account for about .5s of missed time during a fight with <50ms ping.

Result is barely 6 Pyros with RNG, most likely 5-6 Pryos and only 5 of them are guaranteed to crit. FO guarantees 7 Pyros that are guaranteed to crit.

When my rotation is finished with FO I can churn out 2-3 more additional pyros since I'll have FB back up and extra PF charges to use on my second RoP.